Notices
Road Cycling ďIt is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them. Thus you remember them as they actually are, while in a motor car only a high hill impresses you, and you have no such accurate remembrance of country you have driven through as you gain by riding a bicycle.Ē -- Ernest Hemingway

Full body speedsuits?

Old 07-13-19, 12:02 AM
  #1  
smashndash
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 544

Bikes: 2017 Specialized Allez Sprint Comp

Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 349 Post(s)
Liked 27 Times in 20 Posts
Full body speedsuits?

Anyone know where one can find a full body speedsuit - one that covers arms and legs completely? I understand it would look odd, especially at a race where everyone tries to show off their freshly shaved pistons but I have no interest in that. My arms and legs are hairy enough that I believe the drag would be significant - at least compared to what people chase with aero helmets etc. and I really donít feel the need to wax or shave if a lycra cover is easier and faster.

So.... any idea where I can get a full body speedsuit? One that is ideally designed for warm conditions?

I can post this to the racing forum if this is considered too race-y.

Also I have never worn anything around my knees before so if someone has a good reason why there seem to be so few racing-oriented full length pants or tights, then Iíd appreciate that as well.

Last edited by smashndash; 07-13-19 at 12:09 AM.
smashndash is offline  
Old 07-13-19, 01:47 AM
  #2  
RChung
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 1,509
Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 302 Post(s)
Liked 43 Times in 25 Posts
Originally Posted by smashndash View Post
Also I have never worn anything around my knees before so if someone has a good reason why there seem to be so few racing-oriented full length pants or tights, then Iíd appreciate that as well.
That's an interesting question. Years ago when I first started testing aerodynamic drag I happened to be testing in the spring when the weather could be variable. As a side effect, I happened to do some testing wearing shorts and some wearing tights. I'd have to dig up the results but my recollection was that with the tights I was wearing back then the increase in CdA was quite large (like, around .01 m^2) compared to my shorts and low socks. However, the lower leg presents itself to the wind as if it were close to a cylinder, and cylinders have pretty high drag. Worse, the lower leg is a cyclinder that churns in the wind. So it turns out that properly designed socks of the right material can *reduce* drag for certain riders over shorts and low socks. That's why the UCI has instituted new regulations about sock height and fabric surface, which they were enforcing earlier this week at the TdF.

That was a long introduction to what I think may be a loophole in the UCI rules: tights with a cut-out behind the knee to allow the knee to articulate without binding (and also to reduce fabric wrinkles. If you start to manufacture aero tights like this, send my royalty checks to a good charity that supports youth cycling.
RChung is offline  
Old 07-13-19, 10:18 AM
  #3  
popeye
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Newport Beach, CA
Posts: 1,477

Bikes: S works Tarmac, Felt TK2 track

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 144 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 9 Times in 8 Posts
Google "skin suit cycling".
popeye is offline  
Old 07-13-19, 12:01 PM
  #4  
smashndash
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 544

Bikes: 2017 Specialized Allez Sprint Comp

Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 349 Post(s)
Liked 27 Times in 20 Posts
Originally Posted by RChung View Post
That's an interesting question. Years ago when I first started testing aerodynamic drag I happened to be testing in the spring when the weather could be variable. As a side effect, I happened to do some testing wearing shorts and some wearing tights. I'd have to dig up the results but my recollection was that with the tights I was wearing back then the increase in CdA was quite large (like, around .01 m^2) compared to my shorts and low socks. However, the lower leg presents itself to the wind as if it were close to a cylinder, and cylinders have pretty high drag. Worse, the lower leg is a cyclinder that churns in the wind. So it turns out that properly designed socks of the right material can *reduce* drag for certain riders over shorts and low socks. That's why the UCI has instituted new regulations about sock height and fabric surface, which they were enforcing earlier this week at the TdF.

That was a long introduction to what I think may be a loophole in the UCI rules: tights with a cut-out behind the knee to allow the knee to articulate without binding (and also to reduce fabric wrinkles. If you start to manufacture aero tights like this, send my royalty checks to a good charity that supports youth cycling.
I appreciate the thoughtful response.

ďwith the tights I was wearing back then the increase in CdA was quite large (like, around .01 m^2) compared to my shorts and low socksĒ. I am a bit confused. Wouldnít an increase in CdA imply more drag? So the tights were slower? The rest of your post seems to imply otherwise.

And yeah I imagine that some engineering would have to go into the knee area to allow for freedom while pedaling. Which is why Iím hesitant to just buy any old tights off the internet or whatever because I wouldnít want to lose any potential aero gains to discomfort or restriction, which are far more important.

The UCI regulations donít apply to me whatsoever and they most likely never will. So I guess we can chalk this up to yet another development being strangled by the UCIís ideal image of a rider.

I donít plan to produce anything like this yet - this is just one of my umpteen crazy ideas that I have no real world experience with. I also have no idea if thereís any demand for this kind of thing lol
smashndash is offline  
Old 07-13-19, 12:49 PM
  #5  
RChung
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 1,509
Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 302 Post(s)
Liked 43 Times in 25 Posts
Originally Posted by smashndash View Post
ďwith the tights I was wearing back then the increase in CdA was quite large (like, around .01 m^2) compared to my shorts and low socksĒ. I am a bit confused. Wouldnít an increase in CdA imply more drag? So the tights were slower? The rest of your post seems to imply otherwise.
Yes, the tights were slower. At the time I was more interested in developing and testing the estimation procedure and less interested in aero testing specific articles of clothing, and it was cold -- so I was wearing my medium-weight tights, and the tights had higher drag than my bare legs. And that's the interesting bit: modern aero socks are made with fabric that has a slight texture (like very very shallow dimples on a golf ball) to "trip" the boundary layer as the air flows past the calf, and have lower drag than bare legs. So perhaps if my old tights had been designed for aero rather than warmth, they could've been faster. The UCI has instituted rules not only on sock height, but also the fabric texture.

Some wind tunnel tests have been done on hairy legs, and they're measurably higher drag than bare legs. So I would think the ordering would be hairy legs are roughly around as draggy as old-style medium tights, which are both more than shaved legs, which is higher than modern aero socks.


Last edited by RChung; 07-13-19 at 12:52 PM.
RChung is offline  
Old 07-13-19, 01:18 PM
  #6  
smashndash
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 544

Bikes: 2017 Specialized Allez Sprint Comp

Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 349 Post(s)
Liked 27 Times in 20 Posts
Originally Posted by popeye View Post
Google "skin suit cycling".
Uh.... I did. I saw a few full sleeve options (but surprisingly few considering the potential savings) but no racing oriented full arm full leg suits. The closest thing was the castelli thermal suit.

Originally Posted by RChung View Post
Yes, the tights were slower. At the time I was more interested in developing and testing the estimation procedure and less interested in aero testing specific articles of clothing, and it was cold -- so I was wearing my medium-weight tights, and the tights had higher drag than my bare legs. And that's the interesting bit: modern aero socks are made with fabric that has a slight texture (like very very shallow dimples on a golf ball) to "trip" the boundary layer as the air flows past the calf, and have lower drag than bare legs. So perhaps if my old tights had been designed for aero rather than warmth, they could've been faster. The UCI has instituted rules not only on sock height, but also the fabric texture.

Some wind tunnel tests have been done on hairy legs, and they're measurably higher drag than bare legs. So I would think the ordering would be hairy legs are roughly around as draggy as old-style medium tights, which are both more than shaved legs, which is higher than modern aero socks.
OK that further adds to my reason to not just get any pants or bear the discomfort of wearing thermal clothing in summer heat (something Iíd be willing to do if it made me faster). Thank you for your input. Iíll probably stick to either shaving or hairy legs for now.
smashndash is offline  
Old 07-13-19, 01:33 PM
  #7  
Seattle Forrest
Senior Member
 
Seattle Forrest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 19,763
Mentioned: 52 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9189 Post(s)
Liked 791 Times in 485 Posts
Which socks are fast? I realize there's a thing called Google, but there are so many BS claims being made on internet land. I don't race, but I enjoy going fast.
Seattle Forrest is offline  
Likes For Seattle Forrest:
Old 07-13-19, 01:46 PM
  #8  
RChung
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 1,509
Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 302 Post(s)
Liked 43 Times in 25 Posts
Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest View Post
Which socks are fast? I realize there's a thing called Google, but there are so many BS claims being made on internet land. I don't race, but I enjoy going fast.
Yeah. I don't believe all the claims. However, people whose testing I believe claim that Nopinz and Rule 28 both make socks that are faster than bare skin. There may be others but I'm not interested in any particular product as much as I am that my intuition (and experience with those old tights) was so off. I value learning something where my expectations were wrong more than going fast.
RChung is offline  
Likes For RChung:
Old 07-13-19, 02:04 PM
  #9  
Shimagnolo
Senior Member
 
Shimagnolo's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Zang's Spur, CO
Posts: 8,805
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1679 Post(s)
Liked 168 Times in 113 Posts
Originally Posted by RChung View Post
However, people whose testing I believe claim that Nopinz and Rule 28 both make socks that are faster than bare skin.

I know exactly where that name originated.
Shimagnolo is online now  
Old 07-13-19, 02:32 PM
  #10  
bobwysiwyg 
Senior Member
 
bobwysiwyg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: 961' 42.28į N, 83.78į W (A2)
Posts: 1,962

Bikes: Mongoose Selous, Trek DS

Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 747 Post(s)
Liked 91 Times in 62 Posts
Sorry, the tread title reminded me of this scene from many years ago.

__________________
"Skepticism is the first step in critical thinking." -- Me
bobwysiwyg is offline  
Old 07-13-19, 02:48 PM
  #11  
Elvo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Orange County, CA
Posts: 4,169
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 378 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 31 Times in 23 Posts
Elvo is offline  
Old 07-13-19, 03:02 PM
  #12  
shelbyfv
Senior Member
 
shelbyfv's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 5,681
Mentioned: 24 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1246 Post(s)
Liked 268 Times in 176 Posts
What type of racing are you doing? Actual races or do you just want to go "fast" for fun? There may be rules if you are truly competing.
shelbyfv is offline  
Old 07-13-19, 03:25 PM
  #13  
smashndash
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 544

Bikes: 2017 Specialized Allez Sprint Comp

Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 349 Post(s)
Liked 27 Times in 20 Posts
Originally Posted by shelbyfv View Post
What type of racing are you doing? Actual races or do you just want to go "fast" for fun? There may be rules if you are truly competing.
USAC races. Iím pretty sure one of my buddies has worn 3/4 tights and tall-ish socks before thus exposing only a narrow band of flesh on his calves. Iíve never heard of USAC cracking down on clothing except maybe stars and stripes or other stuff that makes you seem like someone youíre not
smashndash is offline  
Likes For smashndash:
Old 07-13-19, 03:45 PM
  #14  
ingo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 152

Bikes: Cervelo S3, Ridley Helium, Cannondale Topstone Carbon, Giant Trance

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 41 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 7 Times in 5 Posts
How about a speed skating suit?
https://garneau.com/ca_en/custom/speed-skating/suits
ingo is offline  
Old 07-13-19, 04:04 PM
  #15  
berner
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Bristol, R. I.
Posts: 3,603

Bikes: Specialized Secteur, old Peugeot

Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 356 Post(s)
Liked 78 Times in 61 Posts
Full body skin suits are way more effective when worn with a matching cape.
berner is offline  
Old 07-13-19, 04:27 PM
  #16  
Bandera 
~>~
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: TX Hill Country
Posts: 5,936
Mentioned: 87 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1109 Post(s)
Liked 144 Times in 93 Posts
Pure 41-ism to look for a technical "solution" that is banned from competition and won't be produced to solve a host of "problems" that were resolved many decades ago. Want to save watts, make massage easier/less messy and be prepared for the inevitable road-rash that comes w/ cycling as a sport: Shave your legs, or Not.

edit:
Having worn skin-suits in competition I can say that a properly fitted one is only slightly less immodest than a minimal Speedo, but appropriate for certain events.
OP: Were you planning to wear such a costume on the open public roads for weekend jaunts?
If so, that would be a Bold Fashion Statement, especially on the MUP.

- Bandera
__________________
'74 Raleigh Internat'l. '77 Trek TX900 FG. '90 Vitus 979. '10 Merckx EMX3. '13 Soma Stanyan

Last edited by Bandera; 07-13-19 at 06:42 PM.
Bandera is offline  
Old 07-13-19, 05:44 PM
  #17  
bruce19
Senior Member
 
bruce19's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Lebanon (Liberty Hill), CT
Posts: 6,580

Bikes: CAAD 12, MASI Gran Criterium S, Colnago World Cup CX & Guru steel

Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 978 Post(s)
Liked 174 Times in 113 Posts
https://www.competitivecyclist.com/a...NhdDEwMDMwNw==
bruce19 is offline  
Old 07-13-19, 05:45 PM
  #18  
bruce19
Senior Member
 
bruce19's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Lebanon (Liberty Hill), CT
Posts: 6,580

Bikes: CAAD 12, MASI Gran Criterium S, Colnago World Cup CX & Guru steel

Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 978 Post(s)
Liked 174 Times in 113 Posts
https://www.excelsports.com/main.asp...jor=4&minor=11
bruce19 is offline  
Old 07-13-19, 06:45 PM
  #19  
znomit
Zoom zoom zoom zoom bonk
 
znomit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 3,818

Bikes: Giant Defy, Trek 1.7c, BMC GF02, Scott Sub 35

Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 197 Post(s)
Liked 65 Times in 32 Posts
Feeling the wind in your hair is a pleasure denied to many cyclists since helmet use became compulsory. Enjoy your bare legs.
znomit is offline  
Old 07-13-19, 07:45 PM
  #20  
smashndash
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 544

Bikes: 2017 Specialized Allez Sprint Comp

Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 349 Post(s)
Liked 27 Times in 20 Posts
Originally Posted by Bandera View Post
Pure 41-ism to look for a technical "solution" that is banned from competition and won't be produced to solve a host of "problems" that were resolved many decades ago. Want to save watts, make massage easier/less messy and be prepared for the inevitable road-rash that comes w/ cycling as a sport: Shave your legs, or Not.

edit:
Having worn skin-suits in competition I can say that a properly fitted one is only slightly less immodest than a minimal Speedo, but appropriate for certain events.
OP: Were you planning to wear such a costume on the open public roads for weekend jaunts?
If so, that would be a Bold Fashion Statement, especially on the MUP.

- Bandera
Besides the plunging neckline that some speedsuits come with and the sheer fabric, I donít see how a speedsuit would be more revealing than a standard race-fit kit. I have an Eliel speedsuit and Iíve worn it at many races. But I enjoy wearing it for solo rides as well. Itís my most comfortable kit, out of my Specialized, Rapha, Eliel and Castelli standard kits. If it didnít have the plunging neckline, Iíd 100% wear a speedsuit on the MUP. I donít really care if people think itís overkill.

From what I can tell, pants or trousers or full length legs are not banned in competition for USAC. If Iím wrong, please show me where in the USAC rulebook this is prohibited. I personally hate shaving my legs not just because itís a pain, but because Iím very hairy literally everywhere else and it just looks weird. And Iím not going to shave or wax my entire body for aesthetics or tradition. I donít get massages either. If covered legs are faster and more convenient, whatís wrong with that? I also wouldnít have to put sunscreen on my legs anymore, which would be a big plus. Besides potential knee-interface issues and tradition, I donít see a reason why there exist literally zero race oriented pants.
smashndash is offline  
Old 07-14-19, 04:53 AM
  #21  
topflightpro
Senior Member
 
topflightpro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 6,508
Mentioned: 51 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1353 Post(s)
Liked 87 Times in 59 Posts
Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest View Post
Which socks are fast? I realize there's a thing called Google, but there are so many BS claims being made on internet land. I don't race, but I enjoy going fast.
DeFeet has some coming out this fall. They've been tested in a wind tunnel and are being run in the Tour right now.
topflightpro is online now  
Old 07-14-19, 05:40 AM
  #22  
smarkinson
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 999
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 331 Post(s)
Liked 11 Times in 5 Posts
Castelli and Endura (and Assos and others) have long sleeve skinsuits. You'd probably need some leg sun protectors for full coverage. Normal leg warmers would be way too hot in warm weather.
smarkinson is offline  
Old 07-14-19, 06:08 AM
  #23  
Bandera 
~>~
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: TX Hill Country
Posts: 5,936
Mentioned: 87 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1109 Post(s)
Liked 144 Times in 93 Posts
Originally Posted by smashndash View Post
From what I can tell, pants or trousers or full length legs are not banned in competition for USAC. If I’m wrong, please show me where in the USAC rulebook this is prohibited.
"ę When competing, all riders shall wear a jersey with sleeves and a pair of shorts, possibly in
the form of a one-piece skinsuit. By shorts it is understood that these are shorts that come
above the knee. Sleeveless jerseys shall be forbidden."

-UCI Article 1.030.26

https://www.uci.org/docs/default-sou...sn=fd56e265_58

Costume yourself as you please, in a skin-suit w/ hirsute legs if that's how you roll, no pics please.

-Bandera
__________________
'74 Raleigh Internat'l. '77 Trek TX900 FG. '90 Vitus 979. '10 Merckx EMX3. '13 Soma Stanyan
Bandera is offline  
Old 07-14-19, 11:38 AM
  #24  
smashndash
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 544

Bikes: 2017 Specialized Allez Sprint Comp

Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 349 Post(s)
Liked 27 Times in 20 Posts
Originally Posted by Bandera View Post
"ę When competing, all riders shall wear a jersey with sleeves and a pair of shorts, possibly in
the form of a one-piece skinsuit. By shorts it is understood that these are shorts that come
above the knee. Sleeveless jerseys shall be forbidden."

-UCI Article 1.030.26

https://www.uci.org/docs/default-sou...sn=fd56e265_58

Costume yourself as you please, in a skin-suit w/ hirsute legs if that's how you roll, no pics please.

-Bandera
Thatís a UCI rule. Does USAC inherit all UCI rules? Even below cat P/1/2?
smashndash is offline  
Old 07-14-19, 11:47 AM
  #25  
asgelle
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Albuquerque, NM
Posts: 3,756
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 434 Post(s)
Liked 34 Times in 23 Posts
Originally Posted by smashndash View Post
That’s a UCI rule. Does USAC inherit all UCI rules? Even below cat P/1/2?
No. UCI rules have no bearing on USAC races with the exception of some equipment rules in very limited cases, but it pays to read the rulebook for yourself.
asgelle is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.