Carbonfiberboy 

It works because of the taste. Mustard and the original mint-flavored 500mg Tums work the same way. Other Tums don't have the exact right taste and don't work. But that's why it works immediately, easily within 2 minutes. Some riders carry fast food mustard packets instead of pickle juice. Works. You can now buy small bottles of pickle juice in bike shops. There's also a commercial variant called HotShots, which is also a taste-based variant of pickle juice. Also works.

I carry my pickle juice in 6 oz. Hammer flasks, and use my own pickle juice or buy in bulk.

Here's a pretty good article about the causes of muscle cramps and the relief from same: https://runnersconnect.net/pickle-juice-muscle-cramps/

You can also take pickle juice prophetically. Gives some advance protection, but not sure why.

MoAlpha

You’ve been amusingly autocorrected.

The taste-shock thing is a fascinating idea. The brainstem, where a whole fish brain still functions in us, is full of funny, atavistic, crosstalk between basic systems, like maybe acid detection and motor control.

seypat

Mustard has tumeric in it. Tumeric does something in the fight against cramps.

DrIsotope

...to a point. It is currently 109Ί outside, with a nosebleed-inducing 6% humidity. We're in an Extreme Heat Advisory until 9pm tomorrow. I would not recommend to anyone that they should go ride right now. There's nothing to acclimate to out there. You have to severely moderate your intensity, 50oz of water won't last an hour (might not last half an hour) and with such a low RH, there's no real way to gauge how much you're sweating because it's evaporating so quickly. Riding outside of where I'm sitting at this moment, at anything beyond a soft pedal, is physically dangerous.

DaveLeeNC

Why is a low RH worse than a high RH in high temps? If I had to do some kind of intense physical activity in 109 degree temps at 9% RH vs some far higher RH, would the low RH environment not be the choice? In the high RH conditions I will (I assume) sweat to whatever by body max is, a whole bunch of water is going to drip off providing very little cooling, etc. In the low RH environment I will also probably 'sweat to my personal max' but almost all the sweat will evaporate providing far better cooling.

What do I not understand here. BTW, in the context of me (OP) and this thread 50 oz. of water per hour is not all that much.

dave

DrIsotope

Basically, you just won't feel very hot. The evaporative cooling effect is working as well as it possibly can-- and without noticing any changes, you can blow your electrolyte balance and overheat your core pretty quickly. This I know from unfortunate experience.

The mention of 50oz of water is because of what I call "unsustainable cycling." Even severely moderated, water requirements for this heat will exceed 2 bottles per hour. So what do you do? To prove you're a hardman, do you stop at a convenience store every 45 minutes to fill up with water? Do you just ride laps around the house so you can refill as often as is needed? Any day where 2 bottles won't last an hour, it's just not worth riding. There are no awards, no bonus points for it. It's suffering for the sake of suffering.

Bottom line, if you're cycling for recreation, there is absolutely zero reason to be out there when it's 109Ί. Two years ago the Redlands Bicycle Classic was unseasonably hot for the first 2 days of the competition-- so much so that attrition due to heat-related illnesses took out about 20% of both the men's and women's fields, and temps were only in the mid-90s. So the following year they moved the event two months earlier in the year... and the TT got snowed out.

Carbonfiberboy 

I'd have to disagree. I've done long pass climbs in 104°, low RH. No, you can't keep up with the water losses. One has to rest and hydrate tactically. I've gone through 70 oz. in 20 miles. It's not true that you can't climb decently, but one has to be acclimated to it. No, it's not dangerous if one knows what one is doing and knows the signs of overheating. I watch 2 things: HR and forearms. If HR climbs unreasonably, stop in the shade and drink. If one's forearms become dry, same. If one is riding in a desert with no shade, take plenty of water and a portable shade. People ride across the Outback. Acclimation greatly reduces water losses.

Ever take sauna? I've done in 100°C.

Start small and pay attention.

MoAlpha

Two more hydration factors with low RH: Skin wetness actually inhibits sweating via a local feedback loop. You lose that when the skin can dry. Second, water losses from the respiratory tract can become significant.

DaveLeeNC

That is interesting. So in low RH environments (vs high HR) at the same temp, the better cooling effect in the low RH will tend to reduce sweating. OTOH, in high RH environments your wet skin will also tend to reduce sweating. I wonder which one 'wins'?

dave

MoAlpha

Good question. No idea. If natural selection optimized us, it should be a wash, no?

Carbonfiberboy 

LOL. It was fine in Preview mode . . .

Doge

USA's last Junior ITT WC in Dubai spent time training in a closed garage in Phoenix in July and Aug. That middle East heat was rather tame. I used to do rollers in the sauna. Messed up the bike a bit with all the sweat. I really don't think there is any temperature on earth you cannot prepare for. Unprepared, sure - you can die. Masters State (and I think Nats) was near Bakersfield and they were racing at 120ish. The HR goes up, power goes down, but if you have the kit and fluids (and practice) - you are going to be fine (if you are a mature adult male).

Doge

I've said this. You don't have to drink it. You have to have it. But pours over you it can do a lot of thing faster than your body can.

Seattle Forrest

Is this only true in low humidity environments? I've suspected the bold text for years based on my own experience. Never in as much humidity as an east coast summer.

DaveLeeNC

Regarding a feedback loop that inhibits sweat if the skin is already wet... I lived in Livermore, Ca. for 4 years back in the 90's. It is pretty dry there in the summer. When I was working in the yard I noticed that

1) I was not uncomfortable even if the temp was 100 degrees
2) I was not wet with sweat
3) I went through water like crazy.

And I wondered if I actually drank more water under those conditions than I would have back east doing the same thing (dripping wet).

dave

DrIsotope

As someone who has spent his entire life in the same inland desert, and is 100% heat-acclimated, I stand by what I said before: unless someone is paying you to pin on a number, there's no reason to ride in extreme heat. There's no reward.

Two weeks ago, I set out to do 166 miles, knowing full well that I would spent at least part of that in temperatures above 100Ί. And I did. I drank over 9 liters in 9 hours, spent 3 hours above 105Ί (peaking at 117Ί) and cut the day short at 140 miles.

I felt fine enough, I paced it well, I dressed appropriately... but it took about 4 days to properly recover. I gained no weight, so I sweat out at least 9kg of water, and it never dripped down my face once.

The only reason the extreme heat didn't win that day is because I absolutely know how to pace, and what to look for body-wise. But it was dumb. I shouldn't have done it at all.

Ride early or late. That's what I mostly do. I try. Sometimes, going against my best interests is just what I do.

DaveLeeNC

As just an interesting seque back to the topic that started this thread, I can sweat out 9 kg of water in 4 hours on 95% of the summer days here in NC.

dave

MoAlpha

I think the data supporting this mechanism come from laboratory studies, but the implication is that the sweat rate will be lower for a given core temp in a humid environment that allows the skin to remain wet and higher in a dry one.

Carbonfiberboy 

It's good that there are so many water stops. I use a Camelbak for stuff like that because it's so much easier to drink from it, thus I do so more frequently. I fill mine, then stop less frequently. I climb a little more slowly while it's full, but save much more time with fewer stops.

Best to get on with the heat training. Some of the weight that one loses riding is the unbound water from glycogen stores. As long as you don't lose more than 2% of your body weight, your performance shouldn't suffer.

On rides like this, I use the "I have to pee every 3 hours" rule. If I get into a rest stop 3 hours or so after the last one and can't pee, I sit in the shade, drink water and take Endurolytes until I do pee. Then I refill and head out. I think I come out on it, time-wise.

DaveLeeNC

2% of bodyweight!?!? I can do that on a 40 minute ride.

dave

seypat

The marathon training team has scales on the long weekend run. The newbies have to weigh before and after the run. If the runner is losing more than 2lbs, they get a talking to from a coach about taking in more liquid. We have SAGs every 3-4 miles with water and Power/Gatorade. It does you no good if you are not taking enough in.

Seattle Forrest

Seattle occasionally gets up to about 105, usually a few days at a time, a free times per summer. (I don't know if we've cracked 90 this year.) Several things have to come together for this. It's always very dry, it starts with a shift in the wind bringing desert air, and the wind always stops before it gets really hot. When you're used to 70s, that kind of heat is stifling. I've noticed it feels better on the bike, until a red light, because it's the only breeze available. Probably different where you live, but up here on those uncommonly hot days, the breeze you get from riding is the reward.

Seattle Forrest

That makes perfect sense. Thanks! 🙂

canklecat

Yup. I work methodically on heat adaptation every summer, starting in May-June, when Texas usually goes from cool spring to HOLYCRAPITBURNS summer overnight. Usually takes all of June to adapt. By July I'm good for the rest of the summer and can usually handle midday rides even when the temp reaches the 100s, as long as I take it easy and pay attention to my body signals.

But I've had a respiratory virus for a week and took only a couple of morning rides. Had to bail out early on a ride Saturday morning, couldn't seem to clear my lungs. Tried again Monday morning but wimped out after 23 miles.

I was worried about losing my heat adaptation, since it's a fickle thing that needs to be refreshed regularly. So I've been soaking in a hot bathtub of Epsom salts for an hour or so, hot enough to be uncomfortable without skin damage. When I finally stand up it sure feels like the onset of heat exhaustion. But it's good for what ails me.

Lemond1985

There used to be a cycling myth that doing long rides on hot days with no water would "toughen you up". The "no water" part is definitely BS, but as long as you stay hydrated, riding in the heat really can "toughen you up", in lots of ways. And heat is something that, the more you avoid it, the lower your resistance to it becomes. I really need to face it head-on, in order to learn to deal with it on the bike. And the adjustment to heat is a profound one, that happens at the cellular level. There are probably a lot of health benefits too, but the phenomenon is still being studied in humans.

At the practical level, if deliberately subjecting yourself to hot weather rides helps you adjust to the heat better, even on days when you don't ride, why not? Anything that makes a ride more difficult improves the training benefits obtained, heat is just one more stresser, like pulling a 40 lb weight behind your bike. It WILL make you stronger over time as you work to overcome it.

Unless you give up riding completely during hot weather, I think it's to a rider's benefit to adjust to it, and deliberately exposing one's self to the worst of it, is the best way I know to achieve that goal, plus other health benefits still being studied.