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Endurance Bike

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Road Cycling “It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them. Thus you remember them as they actually are, while in a motor car only a high hill impresses you, and you have no such accurate remembrance of country you have driven through as you gain by riding a bicycle.” -- Ernest Hemingway

Endurance Bike

Old 08-17-19, 07:33 AM
  #51  
Andrey
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My point is from the personal experience the bug will bite harder and sooner if the bike you start riding put a smile on your face every time you mount it. Light and quick bike is just more fun to ride than a sluggish bike.

Comfort at this level is irrelevant. Both bikes will not be comfortable at this point since both have drop bars. Your body would need time to adjust to the drop bar position and road riding.

People always put comfort and riding a bike in the same sentence. Why? It is comfortable just to sit on the couch and watch TV. If a handlebar seems too low for a new rider (and after riding a hybrid it probably is ) have it set up higher . But the race bike with a higher stem will still handle differently that an endurance bike.

On my endurance bike I can not set up the stem low enough, because the head tube is too tall. I even swapped the headset with less stack and use -17 deg.stem. But on my race geometry bike I can raise the stem or put a stem extender if need be.

For me comfort on a bike means riding for days without pain, especially in the upper body. To do that the bike should fit correctly, does not matter if it is a race or endurance bike. What I m saying that a race bike is more fun to ride fast than an endurance bike. Both should fit correctly. As mentioned above I did not take in consideration torso/leg ratio though.

Last edited by Andrey; 08-17-19 at 08:23 AM.
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Old 08-17-19, 07:51 AM
  #52  
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Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest View Post
I would probably get an acceptable used bike at this point, not too expensive. After you've been riding it a while, assuming you get the bug, you'll want to upgrade (no matter what bike you get now) and having more experience with a road bike will help you determine what you really want and need.
Originally Posted by noodle soup View Post
That's exactly what I'm thinking.

Do some research, maybe pay for a fit(on a bike that you think is ideal), and do some more research on finding a bike that fits now. Don't spend a ton of money on a bike, until you figure out what fits your body.
Pretty much. Get something that fits now, not too extreme, and ride. To me, this is much like people on camera forums asking, "what lens should I get next?" If can't articulate how you want your XXXX to be better or different, you just haven't used it enough,. yet.

Originally Posted by Andrey View Post
My point is from the personal experience...

Comfort at this level is irrelevant.
Have you considered that other people have different personal experience? Weird, I know, but plenty have gone to racy geometry only to wonder, "why did I waste my time with that?" upon moving to an endurance geo. And to describe endurance geo bikes as "slugging" is silly hyperbole that does a disservice to new riders looking for rational input.
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Old 08-17-19, 08:33 AM
  #53  
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Originally Posted by noodle soup View Post
I may be oldish, but I'm not slow, and in the way(yet).
Forrest may have been comme ting on the speed, but I'll comment on the miles. Averaging 40miles per day for every day of the year is impressive as hell.
Obviously that's an average and there are days you dont ride due to rain, heat, or actual life. So that bumps average ride days up to 60 or 70, probably.
Wild. That would take up most of my time not at work.

Impressive dedication.
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Old 08-17-19, 10:46 AM
  #54  
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Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post

Have you considered that other people have different personal experience? Weird, I know, but plenty have gone to racy geometry only to wonder, "why did I waste my time with that?" upon moving to an endurance geo. And to describe endurance geo bikes as "slugging" is silly hyperbole that does a disservice to new riders looking for rational input.


I will argue then that a flat bar road bike is more "comfortable" that a drop bar endurance bike . I see plenty of people riding them . Do people wonder why they get a drop bar bikes then, since they do not not ride in the drops ever ? Flat bar bike is more comfortable to ride then and it is fast enough...

For new riders all the geometry talk, trial, angles, etc will not make sense unless they ride several bikes and compare them. The endurance bike will not feel sluggish if a rider has nothing to compare it to. That is why I suggest to ride both for sometime (rent, used) to see when the bug bites before major commitment. If it bites hard enough you may end up with several bikes anyway....

OP is considering a drop bar road bike. I am suggesting not to discount a pure race bike geometry because they are a lot of fun to ride.

Few years ago I was sold on low trail geometry bikes by some slick online marketing and other riders recommendations. I rode a low trail geometry bike for two years years trying to "like" the different handling that the low trial geo provides, just to realize that I hate riding it and the way it behaves when descending. Some people swear by them though.
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Old 08-17-19, 11:25 AM
  #55  
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I am quite inexperienced compared to the most that commented, but I’d like to echo the advice many experienced riders here shared with you.

Get a bike fit and then aim for a used bike. I don’t know where you’re located, but I recommend you search your local bike forums/mailing lists for reputed bike fitters. In my area there’s at least one fitter that provides “pre-fit” where he talks to you about your riding goals, checks your flexibility (suggests stretching exercises based on your goals as well) gets you on a stationary fitting bike, determines a good fit based on your goals/current flexibility. He then recommends frame sizes, frame types based on what’s on the market. He then gives you 6 months to get a bike and works on your “final fit”, all included in your “pre-fit” pricing. If you go longer than 6 months to get your “final fit”, he charges a discounted rate on your final fit on top of the pre fit. It costs just south of $300, but money well spent if you’re a beginner and don’t know much about fitting and your capabilities.

That way, you’d know exactly what parameters you need to stay within when you’re shopping for a used bike, and I’d bet you’d still spend less than a new bike on what you spend on fit+Used bike combined.
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Old 08-17-19, 11:30 AM
  #56  
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Originally Posted by noodle soup View Post
I may be oldish, but I'm not slow, and in the way(yet).
Must be the aerobeard. 🙂

Your mileage and speed are both impressive, even if you were 20.

I'm fast compared to anyone I ride with, but this place is humbling. As it should be.
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Old 08-17-19, 03:18 PM
  #57  
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Originally Posted by MSchott View Post
Let’s correct one thing. An endurance bike like a Specialized Roubaix or Trek Domane can be as light as a more aggressive bike. The only real difference is the geometry. My 2017 SL4 Sport Roubaix which has a good CF frame, CF pedals, a lightweight seat but otherwise is stock weighs under 20 pounds.
FWIW, I have a CAAD 12 and a Guru (steel) w/ Mavic USTs and both weigh about 17 1/2 lbs. Things like components and wheels/tires will make a weight difference. And, IMO, tubeless Mavics are amazing. Lighter, faster, smoother and more comfortable.
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Old 08-17-19, 06:58 PM
  #58  
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Originally Posted by Andrey View Post
Do people wonder why they get a drop bar bikes then, since they do not not ride in the drops ever ? Flat bar bike is more comfortable to ride then and it is fast enough...
And your solution to that is to recommend a bike with an even more aggressive fit range that's realistic for even fewer people on the bell curve because it might have a 3 or 4mm difference in trail that you personally find offensive? Sweet! Since it's impossible to argue with that logic, I guess I'll just bow out. Yikes.
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Old 08-17-19, 07:29 PM
  #59  
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Originally Posted by bruce19 View Post
FWIW, I have a CAAD 12 and a Guru (steel) w/ Mavic USTs and both weigh about 17 1/2 lbs. Things like components and wheels/tires will make a weight difference. And, IMO, tubeless Mavics are amazing. Lighter, faster, smoother and more comfortable.
I love how you mention this in nearly every thread.

Mavic didn't do much more than patent a standard that most manufacturers were already using.
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Old 08-17-19, 07:47 PM
  #60  
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Originally Posted by Andrey View Post
..

OP is considering a drop bar road bike. I am suggesting not to discount a pure race bike geometry because they are a lot of fun to ride.

Few years ago I was sold on low trail geometry bikes by some slick online marketing and other riders recommendations. I rode a low trail geometry bike for two years years trying to "like" the different handling that the low trial geo provides, just to realize that I hate riding it and the way it behaves when descending. Some people swear by them though.
Feeling fast/fun isn't the same as actually being fast. I can ride an endurance bike fast, for far longer than I can a road race bike.

16 months ago my custom CF road bike was stolen, and I had to search for a bike that would fit the same as the custom. A Trek Domane offered the same fit, but the geometry was quite different. I'm not any slower on the Domane, even though they handle differently.
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Old 08-17-19, 07:52 PM
  #61  
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Originally Posted by Andrey View Post
My point is from the personal experience the bug will bite harder and sooner if the bike you start riding put a smile on your face every time you mount it. Light and quick bike is just more fun to ride than a sluggish bike.

Comfort at this level is irrelevant.
That's absolute rubbish. An endurance bike doesn't have to be heavy, and quick handling doesn't make a bike any faster.

If your bike is sluggish, it's because the rider is slow/weak. Geometry is nearly irrelevant.
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Old 08-17-19, 10:33 PM
  #62  
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The steering is slowed down a little on endurance bikes compared to racing ones. As a general rule, there are some endurance bikes that handle more quickly than some race bikes ... they're both big categories.

The reason is because that's what most people want. A bike that "handles well" is a bike the rider has control over. Most people feel better about their control over a bike that feels stable vs one that responds immediately to every steering input including accidental ones.
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Old 08-17-19, 10:34 PM
  #63  
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Originally Posted by noodle soup View Post
16 months ago my custom CF road bike was stolen
****, man. I'm so sorry to hear that. I hope whoever did it crashed and lost all his teeth.
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Old 08-17-19, 10:47 PM
  #64  
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As some previous posts mentioned, endurance bikes are becoming more flexible with fit and less sluggish handling as buyers want the option to get aggressive. My 2019 Roubaix's saddle to bar drop is lower than plenty of other road bikes on the road (just rode today with someone on a racey BMC with the largest number of spacers I've ever seen, whose bars were higher than his saddle ) and it's not even fully slammed. The difference compared to a traditional lightweight climber is it doesn't beat me up when I ride hard for 50-200 miles, because of all the ways it's designed to absorb road buzz. It's plenty nimble too, with a shorter wheelbase than my "all-rounder" Giant, and it gives me a lot of confidence on descents with a terrific planted feeling.
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Old 08-18-19, 06:47 AM
  #65  
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Originally Posted by noodle soup View Post
I love how you mention this in nearly every thread.

Mavic didn't do much more than patent a standard that most manufacturers were already using.
I mention my experiences when I think they're relevant. You don't? I also don't call people out for sharing their experiences. Apparently, Mavic did more than you think they did. They came "late to the party" with respect to road tubeless according to GCN. And, according to Mavic, they did so because they were attempting to come up with a wheel/tire system that would have precise tolerances to make inflation by floor pump possible when others required a compressor. Here's a GCN vid explaining it. I've posted it several times. Hope you're not offended.

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Old 08-19-19, 06:24 AM
  #66  
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Originally Posted by noodle soup View Post
That's absolute rubbish. An endurance bike doesn't have to be heavy, and quick handling doesn't make a bike any faster.

If your bike is sluggish, it's because the rider is slow/weak. Geometry is nearly irrelevant.
Agreed.
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Old 08-19-19, 06:56 AM
  #67  
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Sorry for not replying sooner! Turns out I can only post five times a day. And then the weekend happened.


So, I did something bad. I went to a larger bike shop yesterday and the guy asks "have you ridden a road bike?" Of course I said no, so he put me on a 61 cm Diverge E5 Comp. That bug has a vicious bite. I didn't walk out with a new bike, but I'm tapping my fingers impatiently trying to figure out my next steps.


Some takeaways from a brief 10 minute ride: Drop bars aren't uncomfortable, in fact they felt more comfortable and I felt myself putting less pressure on them, likely due to the more neutral wrist position. Even though the Diverge is a gravel bike, it still felt much more nimble than my hybrid. Shifting felt nicer, mainly because I was using my fingers instead of my thumbs, so it also felt more stable. The lightness of the bike was also nice. In summary, I'm fairly sure even the "endurance" geometry is going to be significantly more racy than what I have.


That bike shop (nicer of the two by far. The other I went to had maybe 20 road bikes on display, this one had nearly 80, and then hundreds of other stuff) sells Cannondale, Trek and Specialized, so I'll likely narrow my field down to those three brands, assuming I buy new. I'm going to keep my eye open for used, but after a few days of searching it's felt damn near impossible to find something in a larger frame (obviously a few days is small in comparison to an entire winter), plus since I know snot at this point about what to look for in a used bike, I'm less inclined to buy used.


The LBS said they'd be fine letting me take the bike out for like an hour ride and they have a 30 day policy that if I'm not happy with the bike they'd take it back and put me in another that I'd be more comfortable in, so my thought right now is figure out maybe a 15 mile ride near the shop, maybe find a day to go ride it on my current bike to get familiar with the route, then maybe try a bike or two in a high-entry level price range. The season is closing in, but worst case I can set it up on the trainer and use the winter to work on form and flexibility on an actual bike instead of a gym stationary (plus, I can probably squeeze in another ride each week if it's in the basement as opposed to driving to and from the gym). Still TBD.


Any opinions on Cannondale Synapse? Eying the 2019 105 at $1575, but it may be out in my size. I think my second is the Tiagra (2019 or 2020, only a $35 delta). I'd consider the 2020 105, but it's $1800 and looking at gear-calculator it's just a smaller step at the low end (at 80 rpm 28 mm tires the Tiagra is 11, 12, 14 mph and the 105 is 11, 12, 13, 14 mph, but the tiagra can hit 13 mph with a slightly higher or low cadence in the other gears), so that seems like a steep price delta for what feels like a really minor difference (especially since that money could be spent on shoes, pedals, a new computer, etc.). Be nice if this was available with caliper instead of disc brakes to lower the cost, but seems like many bikes these days are coming with disc brakes.


What about the Specialized Allez Elite? Less expensive at $1350 for a 105, but it's an 11-32 (seems the 11-34 spaces gears out more than all the others for more even steps throughout, where the others tend to put more in the small teeth, either for smaller steps at higher speeds or to keep the chainline straighter?). Calipher brakes, more racy, but I am getting mixed on whether it can ride 28 mm tires (25 mm standard).


Last one I noticed at this LBS is they have Jamis. They have a Jamis Ventura Race. Tiagra, 11-32. Not really much cheaper than the Synapse Tiagra, but a few bucks less.
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Old 08-19-19, 08:49 AM
  #68  
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Originally Posted by am0n View Post
looking at gear-calculator it's just a smaller step at the low end
Cassettes are easy to change and are considered wear items, so don't choose a bike or a groupset based on the cassette -- the LBS might even change swap the one that comes standard on the bike for any one you want. I'd encourage you to spring for 105 if you can, but not the end of the world if you can't.

Originally Posted by am0n View Post
What about the Specialized Allez Elite?
It's race geometry not endurance geometry -- take it for a ride and see how you like it. Should feel quite different than the Diverge.
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Old 08-19-19, 10:22 AM
  #69  
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Originally Posted by GuitarBob View Post
Cassettes are easy to change and are considered wear items, so don't choose a bike or a groupset based on the cassette -- the LBS might even change swap the one that comes standard on the bike for any one you want. I'd encourage you to spring for 105 if you can, but not the end of the world if you can't.
Yeah, the issue here is the 105 costs me an effective extra $400 unless I can find the 2019 model (which would be $210 more for the 105). Maybe I don't understand it, but that seems like a steep cost for the extra gear.

And yes, the plan would be to maybe test ride the Synapse and the Allez Elite, get a feel for what each one... feels like. Just curious if there are any opinions on those two models.
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Old 08-19-19, 10:38 AM
  #70  
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Originally Posted by am0n View Post
Yeah, the issue here is the 105 costs me an effective extra $400 unless I can find the 2019 model (which would be $210 more for the 105). Maybe I don't understand it, but that seems like a steep cost for the extra gear.

And yes, the plan would be to maybe test ride the Synapse and the Allez Elite, get a feel for what each one... feels like. Just curious if there are any opinions on those two models.
I think I misunderstood your note -- you are considering differences between 10 and 11 speeds and I thought you were considering different gear ratios. You can get a bunch of cassettes with both 10 and 11 speed groups, so I'd say forget about that for now. So far as Tiagra versus 105, I am sure they both both work perfectly -- I have never ridden Tiagra, though. Besides the extra gear, more expensive groups tend to be made from lighter materials -- but that's usually a small thing. Where you fall out on that equation is up to you and your wallet, of course.

Both the Synapse and Allez are fantastic bikes.
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Old 08-19-19, 11:01 AM
  #71  
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Sorry, couple of unrelated-ish questions.

Besides Craigslist, any suggestions for where to look around for used bikes? Anything in particular people would recommend looking for in a used bike to ascertain condition? Any good resources that would help me understand what to look for/watch out for when shopping for a used bike? After buying it, would I then pay a shop to fit me into the bike?

For shoes/pedals, are they typically standard (in particular, pedals)? Could I buy those for my Hybrid to get familiar with clipping in/out and be guaranteed that they'd still be usable on a future road bike? What should I know about shoes? Should they be snug? Loose? More like normal shoes? I know with my rock shoes I want them snug and I imagine you don't want your foot moving a lot inside your shoe when pedaling, but trying to understand what they should feel like.
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Old 08-19-19, 11:36 AM
  #72  
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The only reason to get an "endurance bike" is if you A) can't stretch to the drop in a race bike (ie Allez, Tarmac, etc) or find road chatter hurts you and want a softer ride.
That said, this should only be after you get a professional setup to eliminate improper settings which often eliminate the problems someone wants to get an endurance bike for.
There are many ways to make a race-styled road bike softer: bigger tires (ie 28-30mm), run tires slacker (70-80psi), get a stem that has an elastomer in it (RedShift Sports StockShock),
change out parts for carbon if it's not a carbon or steel bike (ie front fork, seat post), the there is the seat which can be as soft as you want it to be.

Really, in the end, the Endurance bike comes down to your ability to stretch the hamstrings or not. It does handle a little easier and isn't as sharp as a race bike, most noticeably on darting downhills (usually seen on greenways)

Ultimately, whichever bike FEELS most comfortable will be the best for 25-50 miles. I can ride my Specialized Chisel (XC bike with gravel tires) easily for 40miles w/o much discomfort and it's not setup perfectly.
My Specialized Roubaix I can go over 100mi and while it's good, I still have to manage write and butt discomfort by standing on an occasional downhill to relieve pressure, and it's setup as soft and gooey as a bike can get! So that could just be my age (51)

In the end, any old bike will work for 25-50mi IMO if the tires aren't resistance dragging you down. That is, anything with 38mm or less of tire. Speed is best at 28mm, handling weird road **** come more in the 38mm area. If you want ultimate control, get disc brakes. If you're riding with a group that are close together, I still think manual brakes are best (b/c new ppl not having the focus/awareness)

I bought my bike on eBay from CA to NC. No problems there except a screw went loose and missing during shipping and I had to order it and he said he'd pay for it. Great shape. I wouldn't buy a MTB unseen, but road bikes have less to fix so if they send good pics of the drivetrain and seem honest about the milage you can get great deals there or PinkBike or Facebook Marketplace, etc. One axle bearing went bad after a year of use and would have cost $10 for the bearing and $10 to put it on (I bought $40 ceramic bearings)

Nothing wrong with Steel, easy to fix, easy to paint. Nothing wrong with Aluminum if it isn't damaged. Ditto with Carbon. just watch on Carbon: Avoid matte finishes. Their clearcoat likes to bubble up if in the rain/sun. Glossy finishes don't seem to have this problem as much.
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Old 08-19-19, 11:49 AM
  #73  
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Originally Posted by am0n View Post
Sorry, couple of unrelated-ish questions.

Besides Craigslist, any suggestions for where to look around for used bikes?
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Old 08-19-19, 12:09 PM
  #74  
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Originally Posted by am0n View Post
Yeah, the issue here is the 105 costs me an effective extra $400 unless I can find the 2019 model (which would be $210 more for the 105). Maybe I don't understand it, but that seems like a steep cost for the extra gear.

And yes, the plan would be to maybe test ride the Synapse and the Allez Elite, get a feel for what each one... feels like. Just curious if there are any opinions on those two models.
I am of the school that the more gears the better. Especially for an inexperienced rider and more so if the terrain is other than flat.

I have 11 speed 105, I think the cassette is 32-11 and I use all the gears and there are still gaps. If I were lighter and stronger I’d use a tighter grouping but still use all the sprockets. It’s why 12 speed cassettes will be here in the near future.
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Old 08-19-19, 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by am0n View Post
Sorry for not replying sooner! Turns out I can only post five times a day. And then the weekend happened.


So, I did something bad. I went to a larger bike shop yesterday and the guy asks "have you ridden a road bike?" Of course I said no, so he put me on a 61 cm Diverge E5 Comp. That bug has a vicious bite. I didn't walk out with a new bike, but I'm tapping my fingers impatiently trying to figure out my next steps.


Some takeaways from a brief 10 minute ride: Drop bars aren't uncomfortable, in fact they felt more comfortable and I felt myself putting less pressure on them, likely due to the more neutral wrist position. Even though the Diverge is a gravel bike, it still felt much more nimble than my hybrid. Shifting felt nicer, mainly because I was using my fingers instead of my thumbs, so it also felt more stable. The lightness of the bike was also nice. In summary, I'm fairly sure even the "endurance" geometry is going to be significantly more racy than what I have.


That bike shop (nicer of the two by far. The other I went to had maybe 20 road bikes on display, this one had nearly 80, and then hundreds of other stuff) sells Cannondale, Trek and Specialized, so I'll likely narrow my field down to those three brands, assuming I buy new. I'm going to keep my eye open for used, but after a few days of searching it's felt damn near impossible to find something in a larger frame (obviously a few days is small in comparison to an entire winter), plus since I know snot at this point about what to look for in a used bike, I'm less inclined to buy used.


The LBS said they'd be fine letting me take the bike out for like an hour ride and they have a 30 day policy that if I'm not happy with the bike they'd take it back and put me in another that I'd be more comfortable in, so my thought right now is figure out maybe a 15 mile ride near the shop, maybe find a day to go ride it on my current bike to get familiar with the route, then maybe try a bike or two in a high-entry level price range. The season is closing in, but worst case I can set it up on the trainer and use the winter to work on form and flexibility on an actual bike instead of a gym stationary (plus, I can probably squeeze in another ride each week if it's in the basement as opposed to driving to and from the gym). Still TBD.


Any opinions on Cannondale Synapse? Eying the 2019 105 at $1575, but it may be out in my size. I think my second is the Tiagra (2019 or 2020, only a $35 delta). I'd consider the 2020 105, but it's $1800 and looking at gear-calculator it's just a smaller step at the low end (at 80 rpm 28 mm tires the Tiagra is 11, 12, 14 mph and the 105 is 11, 12, 13, 14 mph, but the tiagra can hit 13 mph with a slightly higher or low cadence in the other gears), so that seems like a steep price delta for what feels like a really minor difference (especially since that money could be spent on shoes, pedals, a new computer, etc.). Be nice if this was available with caliper instead of disc brakes to lower the cost, but seems like many bikes these days are coming with disc brakes.


What about the Specialized Allez Elite? Less expensive at $1350 for a 105, but it's an 11-32 (seems the 11-34 spaces gears out more than all the others for more even steps throughout, where the others tend to put more in the small teeth, either for smaller steps at higher speeds or to keep the chainline straighter?). Calipher brakes, more racy, but I am getting mixed on whether it can ride 28 mm tires (25 mm standard).


Last one I noticed at this LBS is they have Jamis. They have a Jamis Ventura Race. Tiagra, 11-32. Not really much cheaper than the Synapse Tiagra, but a few bucks less.
If you buy new, choosing a good shop is almost as important as choosing the right bike. It sounds like you've done well in that regard. All of the companies you mentioned sell excellent bikes, it's not like you're going to be limited and go wrong. The 30 day return policy sounds like a good thing too, with all the research you've done you probably won't need to use it, but knowing it's there gives you a little security. The more bikes you test ride first, the better you'll feel about your decision.

And to answer your question in a following post, yep, pedals are completely standard, you can buy a set of clipless pedals now, put them on your hybrid, and move them to the road bike when you get it. Or leave them on the hybrid and get another set for the road bike, then your shoes will fit either. I'd personally recommend SPD (not SPD-SL) pedals to start with, because they make "multi-release" ones, there are pedals that clip in on both sides making it easier to get in, there are pedals that take a cleat on one side and a normal shoe on the other, and, finally, it's easier to walk around in SPD shoes and cleats. All of this stuff makes the learning curve a little less steep. But plenty of people have never used them and still done well.
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