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All City Zig Zag

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All City Zig Zag

Old 08-30-19, 06:54 PM
  #1  
rnjl
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All City Zig Zag

Hi folks, I am in the market for a steel or mostly steel road bike (just my personal preference, no need to discuss materials in general.) I want something with a relaxed posture and disc brakes, so I was looking at the Kona Roadhouse, but alas Jenson sold out of them at the sale price and it seems they are discontinued.

So a LBS suggested the All City Zig Zag, which seems like a new model and more or less what I want, and the LBS can order it for me, which is a plus.

I'm not sure it's as relaxed a posture as the Roadhouse or a comparable "endurance" type bike, which I need because of hand problems. Besides, I'm never going to race or be a super aggressive rider but I do like doing longish organized rides a couple of times per summer.

SO, any thoughts about the Zig Zag? Anybody tried it?

Gotta dig the purple paint on the 105 version for $2700 MSR:

https://allcitycycles.com/bikes/zig_zag_105

any thoughts are appreciated.

Thanks

Neal in NY
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Old 08-31-19, 07:48 AM
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That's a helluva good looking frame.
Allcity is killing it with paint fades.

$2700 for a 105 drivetrain is...not inexpensive.
That frameset should cost $1300. Quality wheels for $450. 105 hydro groupset for $600. Tires for $80. Bars, seatpost, and stem and tape for $150.
That leaves $120 left over for a saddle. A generic saddle on that bike can be had for $30.

Full bike pricing is odd when a frame buildup can come in cheaper than the whole bike, using new quality components at online retail prices.

But hey- if you like the fit and choice of all the components on the bike, it's basically a wash, so buy it!

It's a well thought out steel frame bike that doesnt use any wonky design(no d shape seatpost, no proprietary seatpost binder, no aero stem, etc).
It isn't the lightest bike on the block when it comes to steel frame carbon fork disc road bikes, but its certainly not excessive either.

And the fade...oh the fade.
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Old 08-31-19, 08:37 AM
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Yeah, that was my initial thought - that it doesn't strike a great value proposition for me. That said, the steel QBP bike brands like All-City and Surly have their own following and they obviously find value in something that's not apparent to me (though I was liking some of their 853 offerings a couple/few years ago).

I do like the overall direction, though - 11-speed, hydro disc, ability to accommodate moderately wide tires, etc.
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Old 08-31-19, 09:58 AM
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Why are the zigzag models so expensive? Beautiful frames! Seems like last year 105 bikes were 2000$ and under.
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Old 08-31-19, 10:13 AM
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Whisky fork and cockpit, branded wheels, hydraulic discs, may account for the upcharge. And the price of doing business. Sister brand Surly’s disc road bike is $2000 this year
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Old 08-31-19, 02:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Darth Lefty View Post
Whisky fork and cockpit, branded wheels, hydraulic discs, may account for the upcharge. And the price of doing business. Sister brand Surly’s disc road bike is $2000 this year
But when using AC's gravel frame that's identical tubing and fork as the basis for frameset cost, a random consumer can spec the bike as nice as or better than the full build for less $.
There would be 'branded' wheels, cockpit, hydro disc, etc.

I think the quality of frameset and the paint offset the total lack of value in buying the full bike and not having a frameset only option.
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Old 08-31-19, 02:29 PM
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21 pounds and 12.5 ounces for 55cm. It seems like a really nice bike.
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Old 08-31-19, 02:37 PM
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Originally Posted by mstateglfr View Post

I think the quality of frameset and the paint offset the total lack of value in buying the full bike and not having a frameset only option.
I believe the other zig zag (ultegra) is available as just a frameset.

Zig zag
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Old 08-31-19, 07:23 PM
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Thanks, folks, I appreciate the help in thinking this through. Problem with getting a frame is that I don't have the expertise to put together my own build and not sure any LBS in my area takes on that kind of business.

I really don't care about the cosmetic touches chat much, though I do like the color purple, but feel like I'm ready for an upgrade from my current Specialized steel cross bike with Tiagra- it weighs about 29 or 30 lbs and is kind of sluggish on long rides. That's why I want a real road bike, not a gravel bike with road wheels.

Given that for a biker at my level of fitness and ambition is probably fine with Tiagra rather than 105, maybe the Kona Roadhouse is good enough and more than $1K cheaper if I buy online from Jenson (assuming they don't sell out like they did with the Roadhouse.)

Thanks again for the opinions.
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Old 08-31-19, 08:50 PM
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Nice looking bike. The ad copy reminded me of a Craigslist bike I picked up a few months ago which is also a QBP bike from 2015, the Salsa Colossal. Marketed
as a bike for "all day, mixed surface road performance. Fast, comfortable, stable and efficient." It seem to be aimed at the road/adventure biker who wants disc brakes and sightly relaxed geometry. Very similar bikes with the key difference being the Zig Zag will allow for much wider tires. The Colossal will only go up to 30mm without fenders. The Colossal has 4mm more bottom bracket drop and the Zig Zag has about 13mm more stack while the reach is the same for both.
You can find the Colossal (steel) on the used market for 800 to 1200.
I like the Colossal a lot. It is my "go faster" bike. I've taken it out on 50-60 mile rides and it is indeed comfortable and it weighs just over 20 pounds naked, so long rides don't feel like quite the slog as when I ride my Cross Check.
Just my 2 cents. Hope you find a bike the suits you!
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Old 09-01-19, 01:54 AM
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I would check out
www.somafab.com
maybe their Wolverine is what you might want.
https://www.somafabshop.com/shop/pro...3?category=990

Clearance for 44mm with fenders, disc, thru axle, etc.
Tange Prestige tubing = frame for $630 and build it your way.

https://www.somafabshop.com/shop/pro...rosso-red-2938
or the Fog Cutter with clearance for 38s w/ fenders for $100 less than Wolverine.


I only mention SomaFab as you seem a person who knows their needs and seeking a supplier who can meet them. So build-a-bike Soma might be the way to go.

Last edited by Wildwood; 09-01-19 at 02:04 AM.
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Old 09-01-19, 06:49 AM
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Originally Posted by rnjl View Post
Thanks, folks, I appreciate the help in thinking this through. Problem with getting a frame is that I don't have the expertise to put together my own build and not sure any LBS in my area takes on that kind of business.

I really don't care about the cosmetic touches chat much, though I do like the color purple, but feel like I'm ready for an upgrade from my current Specialized steel cross bike with Tiagra- it weighs about 29 or 30 lbs and is kind of sluggish on long rides. That's why I want a real road bike, not a gravel bike with road wheels.

Given that for a biker at my level of fitness and ambition is probably fine with Tiagra rather than 105, maybe the Kona Roadhouse is good enough and more than $1K cheaper if I buy online from Jenson (assuming they don't sell out like they did with the Roadhouse.)

Thanks again for the opinions.
I hope we did not talk you out of a really nice bike. A good weight for steel. That price was manufacturer suggested retail pricing only. Maybe it could be had a little cheaper.
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Old 09-01-19, 07:40 AM
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Here we go again:
"Our proprietary air-hardened, extruded steel tubing that we custom designed for all-road riding and racing.".... for $1300..... NO.
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Old 09-01-19, 09:28 AM
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Originally Posted by trailangel View Post
Here we go again:
"Our proprietary air-hardened, extruded steel tubing that we custom designed for all-road riding and racing.".... for $1300..... NO.
No to all of it? No to it being air hardened? No to it being custom designed? No to it being for all road riding? No to it being for all road racing?
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Old 09-01-19, 10:22 AM
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Thanks Bargo, I'll take a look. I don't actually want wider tires, I want a roady looking road bike but I'll look for the colossal on ebay and craigslist.

Also thanks to the person who suggested re: Zig Zag that maybe it's cheaper in real life. I'll call around some stores in NYC- about 75 miles away- maybe they'll discount, dunno, though of course it's also nice to get something from LBS and be able to bring it back to them if something goes wonky.

Thank you all for your suggestions.
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Old 09-01-19, 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by trailangel View Post
Here we go again:
"Our proprietary air-hardened, extruded steel tubing that we custom designed for all-road riding and racing.".... for $1300..... NO.
But they used so many "fancy" "technical" terms you must be impressed? It isn't like they'd just slightly alter Reynolds 631 and sell it for $1300....
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Old 09-01-19, 11:04 AM
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Beautiful paint job on that bike though. Not sure what that is worth to you
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Old 09-01-19, 01:15 PM
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Originally Posted by rnjl View Post
Thanks Bargo, I'll take a look. I don't actually want wider tires, I want a roady looking road bike but I'll look for the colossal on ebay and craigslist.

Also thanks to the person who suggested re: Zig Zag that maybe it's cheaper in real life. I'll call around some stores in NYC- about 75 miles away- maybe they'll discount, dunno, though of course it's also nice to get something from LBS and be able to bring it back to them if something goes wonky.

Thank you all for your suggestions.
I mean, it is a QBP brand - every LBS should have an account with them. I'm sure that anyone could order it for you, it's just up to you to convince them that you're easy, low-maintenance and worth a quick, discounted sale.
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Old 09-01-19, 05:40 PM
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So dope.

Very expensive.

Look at the surly straggler, and mightnight special as well.

This bike would be too flashy for me, and it looks good enough where you may even be attacked for it lol. You never know.
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Old 09-02-19, 10:28 AM
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Kind of like the bike....

Looking for a bike that can take 32mm tires and cruise on the back roads. I just saw this bike and the spec and paint job for the 105 look promising. I wish the fork was a flat mount brake to match the rear but otherwise all seemed well sorted out? The price never makes me happy but that's always the case. I still think it is tolerable given the level of total build. The tubing is not known to me and am curious of others opinions of it given they use it on another model. I will probably not be able to see one or test ride before trying to purchase one which makes things agonizing for me to buy.
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Old 09-02-19, 12:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Marcus_Ti View Post
But they used so many "fancy" "technical" terms you must be impressed? It isn't like they'd just slightly alter Reynolds 631 and sell it for $1300....
Ok, so if trail's issue is with their wording, I guess I get it. Its marketing, and it's what basically every company does and has done for decades.

Fuji's valite, Miyata's stb, and Raliegh's 555 being a few older examples where in-house/private labeled tubing is advertised as available only to a company. Fuji's was just ishiwata, miyata was in house and compared to columbus rifled tubing, and raleigh's was 501. Oh, Schwinn's Tenax is another.
And the list could easily continue thru today with most steel frame brands touting their 'natch' tubes, ACE tubes, 'drawnright' tubes, etc etc.

All City's ACE tubing is advertised as lighter than 853...in a way. The Cosmic Stallion with ACE is advertised as 5oz lighter than the Macho Man with 853. I think some of that savings may be in a tapered vs 44mm headtube, but it isn't all there.
If ACE is just 631, I would chuckle, but not be surprised. I would also not dismiss the bike as still being really nice looking and well put together.


Ramble and rant there. I just dont understand getting up in arms over marketing...but I am cynical and dont really buy into marketing much, so perhaps its infuriating because it 'tricks' others? If most everyone 'tricks' the consumer, then it's all just a wash. It's tough to tell 'quality' for carbon, aluminum, and steel frames without details of the tubing.
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Old 09-02-19, 02:04 PM
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That is part of the problem, the devil is in the details. Not knowing more of the steels qualities or attributes as opposed to more common "known" types leaves me comparing apples to an unknown variable. I may just start looking for the Cosmic Stallion reviews and try to come to a conclusion based upon that. Again no apples to oranges comparison. Thanks for your reply by the way mstateglfr.
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Old 09-02-19, 03:26 PM
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Originally Posted by mstateglfr View Post
Ok, so if trail's issue is with their wording, I guess I get it. Its marketing, and it's what basically every company does and has done for decades.

Fuji's valite, Miyata's stb, and Raliegh's 555 being a few older examples where in-house/private labeled tubing is advertised as available only to a company. Fuji's was just ishiwata, miyata was in house and compared to columbus rifled tubing, and raleigh's was 501. Oh, Schwinn's Tenax is another.
And the list could easily continue thru today with most steel frame brands touting their 'natch' tubes, ACE tubes, 'drawnright' tubes, etc etc.

All City's ACE tubing is advertised as lighter than 853...in a way. The Cosmic Stallion with ACE is advertised as 5oz lighter than the Macho Man with 853. I think some of that savings may be in a tapered vs 44mm headtube, but it isn't all there.
If ACE is just 631, I would chuckle, but not be surprised. I would also not dismiss the bike as still being really nice looking and well put together.


Ramble and rant there. I just dont understand getting up in arms over marketing...but I am cynical and dont really buy into marketing much, so perhaps its infuriating because it 'tricks' others? If most everyone 'tricks' the consumer, then it's all just a wash. It's tough to tell 'quality' for carbon, aluminum, and steel frames without details of the tubing.
It is all feel good non-specific word-soup to make you feel better about getting some-kind of steel, and merely, 105 for $2,700USD. 105. For $2,700....I suppose you could call it a favor, even getting a carbon fork and not a threaded steel fork. QBP also owns Salsa that pull similar pricing.

Small wonder Shimano keeps having to unveil worse and more-primitive groupsets to continue servicing the middle/low-end price-brackets. Soon they'll have to debut the latest in 7-speed tech; they already re-released the very latest in *cough cough* 8-speed (Claris)
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Old 09-02-19, 09:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Marcus_Ti View Post
It is all feel good non-specific word-soup to make you feel better about getting some-kind of steel, and merely, 105 for $2,700USD. 105. For $2,700....I suppose you could call it a favor, even getting a carbon fork and not a threaded steel fork. QBP also owns Salsa that pull similar pricing.

Small wonder Shimano keeps having to unveil worse and more-primitive groupsets to continue servicing the middle/low-end price-brackets. Soon they'll have to debut the latest in 7-speed tech; they already re-released the very latest in *cough cough* 8-speed (Claris)
$2700 for a 105 bike is crazy to me, but I dont buy new bikes from retail stores, so I am neither the target audience or up to date on what to expect for 105 hydro steel frame bikes.

When it's broken down, I'm just not sure where savings would be expected, if not in the groupset.
The frameset costs $1200 and has a $500 retail fork that is comparable in spec and price to similar forks. So the frame is effectively priced at $700. That doesnt seem awful for a thru axle quality steel(whatever the details are, it obviously isn't junk) frame with a nice paint job.
It would be great to see it for less, but is that realistic? A $520 retail fork could be essentially priced at $400 for the frameset and the frame could be essentially priced at $550. $950 for the frameset- still more expensive than jamis renegade(an example), but cheaper than Ritchey logic, Fairlight Strael, etc.
Soma fog cutter with carbon fork is $800, but no TA(does it really matter?), no flat mount(does it really matter), aluminum steerer fork(heavier, but does it matter?), and not as cool paint(it does matter!).
At the same time, AC apparently doesnt think they should price themselves for less and at $1200 it's in line with other steel frame carbon fork models from other brands.


Where I really think savings should be found with regards to the full build is the whiskey branded cockpit, wheels, and the shimano components. All that should in theory be cheaper than online retail.


I dont follow your mention of shimano introducing worse and more primitive groupsets. That's happening right now? I am not aware. The current Sora and Claris seems quite fine for the price level, based on my admittedly limited experience, but relatively extensive maintenance of both groups.
And you mention Claris is still 8sp...should it be 9? If so, why? What's Sora then? Etc etc.
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Old 09-02-19, 11:33 PM
  #25  
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more people will stop and comment on the Zig Zag than the Kona. That's good or bad, up to you.
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