Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Road Cycling
Reload this Page >

Indoor Trainers . . . why don't they get it right before selling them?

Notices
Road Cycling “It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them. Thus you remember them as they actually are, while in a motor car only a high hill impresses you, and you have no such accurate remembrance of country you have driven through as you gain by riding a bicycle.” -- Ernest Hemingway

Indoor Trainers . . . why don't they get it right before selling them?

Old 09-20-19, 09:05 AM
  #1  
FlashBazbo
Chases Dogs for Sport
Thread Starter
 
FlashBazbo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Middle Tennessee
Posts: 4,127

Bikes: BMC SLR01 TeamMachine Disk Di2; OPEN new U.P. Di2

Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 870 Post(s)
Liked 51 Times in 35 Posts
Indoor Trainers . . . why don't they get it right before selling them?

Sorry about this, but this post is in the form of a vent and/or rant. Indoor trainers. When I bought my last one (Wahoo Kickr Snap), the revised product had been on the market less than a year. I had problems with mine and, if you believed the Internet forums, a LOT of people did. They didn't do what they were sold as doing. Among the problems was that the trainer's connection with Zwift was bodgy. Wahoo fixed all the bugs within four to six weeks after I purchased mine -- but why didn't they fix the bugs before selling the product to the public?

Now, I'm in the market for a trainer again. I've narrowed my choices to the Wahoo Kickr, Wahoo Kickr Core, and Tacx Neo 2T. All three trainers are less than a year on the market. But all three trainers have established reputations of having problems! Wahoo's problems are bad enough and pervasive enough that the CEO did a YouTube video about them. The Neo 2T's issues are sufficiently bad that the usual product reviewers, having used the trainer for months, aren't comfortable even providing reviews! The 2T's predecessor, the Neo 2, has been out for about a year, but STILL doesn't provide all the features it was marketed as providing! Again, why not get the product right before unleashing them on the public?

Maybe this is accepted procedure in the home indoor exercise market? It seems that treadmills and ellipticals are susceptible of the same issues.

Trainer manufacturers . . . please do your testing BEFORE you sell us the product! Get the feature set established and working BEFORE you make promises you will never keep! It's no fun to buy a product only to discover it doesn't work as advertised.

End of rant.

Last edited by FlashBazbo; 09-20-19 at 09:09 AM.
FlashBazbo is offline  
Old 09-20-19, 11:19 AM
  #2  
mstateglfr 
Sunshine
 
mstateglfr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Des Moines, IA
Posts: 8,883

Bikes: '18 class built steel roadbike, '19 Fairlight Secan, '87 Schwinn Prelude, Black Mountain Cycles Monstercross V4, '89 Novara Trionfo, '18 Diamondback Syncr

Mentioned: 79 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3279 Post(s)
Liked 335 Times in 230 Posts
Originally Posted by FlashBazbo View Post
Now, I'm in the market for a trainer again. I've narrowed my choices to the Wahoo Kickr, Wahoo Kickr Core, and Tacx Neo 2T. All three trainers are less than a year on the market. But all three trainers have established reputations of having problems!
Why would you narrow your choices down to 3 trainers with established reputations for not working properly?

I agree that its frustrating when products arent fully sorted out before reaching market, but when you know about it beforehand- its on you to silently accept what you get if you choose to buy one.
mstateglfr is offline  
Old 09-20-19, 11:23 AM
  #3  
datlas 
Beyond Bogus
 
datlas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Malvern, PA (20 miles West of Philly)
Posts: 29,065

Bikes: 1986 Alpine (steel road bike), 2009 Ti Habenero, 2013 Specialized Roubaix

Mentioned: 405 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9149 Post(s)
Liked 217 Times in 141 Posts
Ask DCRainmaker. He knows everything.
__________________
Originally Posted by rjones28 View Post
Addiction is all about class.
datlas is offline  
Likes For datlas:
Old 09-20-19, 11:40 AM
  #4  
FlashBazbo
Chases Dogs for Sport
Thread Starter
 
FlashBazbo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Middle Tennessee
Posts: 4,127

Bikes: BMC SLR01 TeamMachine Disk Di2; OPEN new U.P. Di2

Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 870 Post(s)
Liked 51 Times in 35 Posts
Originally Posted by mstateglfr View Post
Why would you narrow your choices down to 3 trainers with established reputations for not working properly?

I agree that its frustrating when products arent fully sorted out before reaching market, but when you know about it beforehand- its on you to silently accept what you get if you choose to buy one.
You speak the truth, Captain Obvious.

I’ve narrowed to 3 based on what I’m looking for in a trainer. (Nothing wrong with that, I hope.). But I haven’t purchased. Just frustrated that, of the trainers on the market that claim to fit my specs, NONE is actually ready to be sold.
FlashBazbo is offline  
Old 09-20-19, 11:43 AM
  #5  
mstateglfr 
Sunshine
 
mstateglfr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Des Moines, IA
Posts: 8,883

Bikes: '18 class built steel roadbike, '19 Fairlight Secan, '87 Schwinn Prelude, Black Mountain Cycles Monstercross V4, '89 Novara Trionfo, '18 Diamondback Syncr

Mentioned: 79 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3279 Post(s)
Liked 335 Times in 230 Posts
Originally Posted by FlashBazbo View Post
Just frustrated that, of the trainers on the market that claim to fit my specs, NONE is actually ready to be sold.
Ah, gotcha.

Is a dumb-setup not a good option for you?...normal basic trainer and a bluetooth speed/cadence sensor. It isnt as slick, but if the slick ones dont work well...
mstateglfr is offline  
Old 09-20-19, 11:52 AM
  #6  
FlashBazbo
Chases Dogs for Sport
Thread Starter
 
FlashBazbo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Middle Tennessee
Posts: 4,127

Bikes: BMC SLR01 TeamMachine Disk Di2; OPEN new U.P. Di2

Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 870 Post(s)
Liked 51 Times in 35 Posts
Originally Posted by mstateglfr View Post
Ah, gotcha.

Is a dumb-setup not a good option for you?...normal basic trainer and a bluetooth speed/cadence sensor. It isnt as slick, but if the slick ones dont work well...
Troll much? (I think the entire forum knows the answer to that question.)
FlashBazbo is offline  
Old 09-20-19, 12:15 PM
  #7  
LAJ
So it is
 
LAJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Westminster, CO
Posts: 16,313

Bikes: Luzerne, 684, Boreas, Wheelhouse, Alize©®, Bayamo, Cayo

Mentioned: 209 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4629 Post(s)
Liked 103 Times in 79 Posts
Originally Posted by FlashBazbo View Post
You speak the truth, Captain Obvious.

I’ve narrowed to 3 based on what I’m looking for in a trainer. (Nothing wrong with that, I hope.). But I haven’t purchased. Just frustrated that, of the trainers on the market that claim to fit my specs, NONE is actually ready to be sold.

Originally Posted by FlashBazbo View Post
Troll much? (I think the entire forum knows the answer to that question.)
Some legitimate questions were asked in a couple of posts, and you answered like this?
__________________
Originally Posted by rubiksoval View Post
It's never about getting comfortable. It's about getting capable.
LAJ is offline  
Likes For LAJ:
Old 09-20-19, 12:17 PM
  #8  
mstateglfr 
Sunshine
 
mstateglfr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Des Moines, IA
Posts: 8,883

Bikes: '18 class built steel roadbike, '19 Fairlight Secan, '87 Schwinn Prelude, Black Mountain Cycles Monstercross V4, '89 Novara Trionfo, '18 Diamondback Syncr

Mentioned: 79 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3279 Post(s)
Liked 335 Times in 230 Posts
Originally Posted by FlashBazbo View Post
Troll much? (I think the entire forum knows the answer to that question.)
Wow, I wasnt trolling at all. I could have instead asked- why would a dumb-trainer setup not work for you? Perhaps that would have come off as less trollish?
Either way- ill see my way out.
mstateglfr is offline  
Likes For mstateglfr:
Old 09-20-19, 12:32 PM
  #9  
eduskator
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Posts: 240

Bikes: TCR Advanced Pro 0

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 103 Post(s)
Liked 23 Times in 22 Posts
Originally Posted by FlashBazbo View Post
Sorry about this, but this post is in the form of a vent and/or rant. Indoor trainers. When I bought my last one (Wahoo Kickr Snap), the revised product had been on the market less than a year. I had problems with mine and, if you believed the Internet forums, a LOT of people did. They didn't do what they were sold as doing. Among the problems was that the trainer's connection with Zwift was bodgy. Wahoo fixed all the bugs within four to six weeks after I purchased mine -- but why didn't they fix the bugs before selling the product to the public?

Now, I'm in the market for a trainer again. I've narrowed my choices to the Wahoo Kickr, Wahoo Kickr Core, and Tacx Neo 2T. All three trainers are less than a year on the market. But all three trainers have established reputations of having problems! Wahoo's problems are bad enough and pervasive enough that the CEO did a YouTube video about them. The Neo 2T's issues are sufficiently bad that the usual product reviewers, having used the trainer for months, aren't comfortable even providing reviews! The 2T's predecessor, the Neo 2, has been out for about a year, but STILL doesn't provide all the features it was marketed as providing! Again, why not get the product right before unleashing them on the public?

Maybe this is accepted procedure in the home indoor exercise market? It seems that treadmills and ellipticals are susceptible of the same issues.

Trainer manufacturers . . . please do your testing BEFORE you sell us the product! Get the feature set established and working BEFORE you make promises you will never keep! It's no fun to buy a product only to discover it doesn't work as advertised.

End of rant.
It is normal for new product to experience issues... That's why I usually never get the latest products, especially car makers when they launch new models - worst thing to do is to buy one right away lol.

If it's a brand issue however I'd suggest getting a brand that has better product feedback?
eduskator is offline  
Old 09-20-19, 01:20 PM
  #10  
Jack Tone 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 86
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 37 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 13 Times in 10 Posts
For what it's worth, I bought the original Tacx Neo in 2016 and have put thousands of miles on it. The only problem I ever noticed was once when I was in my lowest gear (34/32) climbing a 25% grade at low rpm, it felt like the tire slipped. Apparently the 2T has fixed that.
Jack Tone is offline  
Old 09-20-19, 04:04 PM
  #11  
guachi
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2019
Posts: 126
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 56 Post(s)
Liked 35 Times in 28 Posts
Competition?
Need to get a product to market?
Poor testing or quality control?
Belief they can just fix software problems after release?

I own a Kickr Core and it's worked fine under four months of heavy use. What were the current issues it's supposed to still have?
guachi is offline  
Old 09-20-19, 06:29 PM
  #12  
kissTheApex
Senior Member
 
kissTheApex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Silver Spring, MD
Posts: 654

Bikes: Fuji Team 08

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 67 Post(s)
Liked 21 Times in 16 Posts
Neo 2T is not even shipping, is it? The problem with it, if the reports are to be believed, they used the old software from Neo 2, and the old software pid loop is not quick enough for the new magnet configuration reaction time, which tacx is said to have 2T specific software finished up by the time the units are ready to ship.
kissTheApex is offline  
Old 09-20-19, 06:48 PM
  #13  
TiHabanero
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 2,577
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 826 Post(s)
Liked 95 Times in 64 Posts
I can tell you exactly why they do this. YOU! You are coming back for more so apparently the problems the first time around were not enough for you to look elsewhere. Been there, done it, and have the T-shirt (literally, remember Farfegnugen?) Learned my lesson the second time around and switched brands, and very happy I did!

Lesson of the story is LOOK FOR ANOTHER BRAND.
TiHabanero is offline  
Old 09-21-19, 06:31 AM
  #14  
FlashBazbo
Chases Dogs for Sport
Thread Starter
 
FlashBazbo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Middle Tennessee
Posts: 4,127

Bikes: BMC SLR01 TeamMachine Disk Di2; OPEN new U.P. Di2

Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 870 Post(s)
Liked 51 Times in 35 Posts
Originally Posted by TiHabanero View Post
I can tell you exactly why they do this. YOU! You are coming back for more so apparently the problems the first time around were not enough for you to look elsewhere. Been there, done it, and have the T-shirt (literally, remember Farfegnugen?) Learned my lesson the second time around and switched brands, and very happy I did!

Lesson of the story is LOOK FOR ANOTHER BRAND.
If you read my post, you would see that I have considered other brands. They ALL seem to do the same thing. That's why I posted the thread. The entire industry seems to introduce their products before they are ready and I find that frustrating. (I think they learned it from Apple who learned it from Microsoft.)
FlashBazbo is offline  
Old 09-21-19, 06:49 AM
  #15  
Dopefish905
Senior Member
 
Dopefish905's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Hamilton Ontario
Posts: 157

Bikes: Cervelo S2

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 31 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
30 thousand kms on my kickr 16. 2 belts replaced but zero issues. This was before they moved their manufacturing over seas though...

old neos work great aswell. Neo2t has major problems right now not even a finished product.
Dopefish905 is offline  
Old 09-21-19, 06:49 AM
  #16  
Trsnrtr
Super Moderator
 
Trsnrtr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Central Illinois
Posts: 17,179

Bikes: Giant Propel, Gianni Motta, Co-Motion Supremo, ICE VTX

Mentioned: 96 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6460 Post(s)
Liked 152 Times in 98 Posts
As for selling before the bugs are worked out, I've been wondering that about Garmin since the introduction of the Edge 305 and every iteration since.
__________________
Dennis T

Trsnrtr is offline  
Likes For Trsnrtr:
Old 09-21-19, 08:11 AM
  #17  
CyclingFool95 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: Northern NJ
Posts: 185

Bikes: 1987 Pinarello Montello, 1995 Litespeed Classic, 1996 Colnago Master Light, 2006 Opera Leonardo FP, 2006 Pinarello Paris FP, 1984 Pinarello Record

Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 67 Post(s)
Liked 19 Times in 17 Posts
I wanted a Kickr so i could add in the Climb. I went with the Core late last year. I zapped the first one, the issue reported on widely. The retailer gave me another one, which did not have the design fixes. Meanwhile, several weeks later, Wahoo sent me an improved one. I sent back the second one, which never had a problem. Third one, and Climb, have been working great. It was annoying, but Wahoo's customer support is excellent.
CyclingFool95 is offline  
Old 09-21-19, 08:17 AM
  #18  
himespau 
Senior Member
 
himespau's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 11,043
Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1513 Post(s)
Liked 67 Times in 51 Posts
Originally Posted by CyclingFool95 View Post
I wanted a Kickr so i could add in the Climb. I went with the Core late last year. I zapped the first one, the issue reported on widely. The retailer gave me another one, which did not have the design fixes. Meanwhile, several weeks later, Wahoo sent me an improved one. I sent back the second one, which never had a problem. Third one, and Climb, have been working great. It was annoying, but Wahoo's customer support is excellent.
At least they back things up with customer support.
himespau is online now  
Old 09-21-19, 09:26 AM
  #19  
burnthesheep
Newbie racer
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: Raleigh, NC
Posts: 1,166

Bikes: Propel, red is faster

Mentioned: 29 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 523 Post(s)
Liked 181 Times in 122 Posts
I bought a used Snap and the bearings smoked on the second ride. Guy was a saint and took it back.

Something like a bloody bearing in a trainer should be lifetime. Belts consumables. If a dumb fluid lasts forever then the mechanic parts that don’t wear on a smart trainer should also.

Wheel bearings in cars last 100’s of thousands of miles. BB in bikes usually last like 5 to 10k miles and they see weather and dirt and bike washes.

To me the warranty needs to be 2 years. 1 year is crap for a $600 to $1000 product. The EU laws require 2 years. Good ole ‘Murica, nope. Caveat emptor.

If I do buy, probably thru REI as they deal with the warranty within 1 year instead of the trainer maker.

I tend to agree that quoted failure rates of 3% are beyond abysmal. That’s nowhere in the “sigma” defect rate ballpark for acceptable quality. I’ve worked in places that track that stuff and we’d work towards 4 and 5 sigma. Not two.

If you worked in manufacturing ever, you’d realize how appalling 3% is.
burnthesheep is online now  
Old 09-23-19, 06:26 AM
  #20  
firebird854
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 411

Bikes: 2016 Specialized Tarmac Expert

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 184 Post(s)
Liked 25 Times in 19 Posts
I run a Cycleops Magnus (M2), I have it controlled but setup the power source in Zwift, Trainerroad, etc. as my Powertap G3 so it never needs calibration and always has extremely accurate power. While I've had some small problems here and there, overall the setup has worked quite well and there've been no actual failures in thousands of indoor miles (I'm cursed now).

I'm just offering additional options.
firebird854 is offline  
Old 09-23-19, 09:26 PM
  #21  
zacster
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Brooklyn NY
Posts: 6,263
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 22 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 43 Times in 36 Posts
I've got a Kickr Core and have been happy with it. It was an early one too, so it could have potentially had issues. The only issue to date was the chevron stickers came off, but what would you expect with stickers on something rotating that approaches the speed of sound from my awesome riding?

Just remember, you only read about the problems, not the happy owners that have nothing to say about it.
zacster is offline  
Old 09-23-19, 09:45 PM
  #22  
trainsktg
Senior Member
 
trainsktg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Oregon
Posts: 444
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 46 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 4 Times in 3 Posts
I bought my Kickr in mid 2015, so like a year or so after they were introduced? No issues other than needing to replace the belt last summer. It works equally well with an iPad or a PC&dongle. It has some where above 400 hours on it (mostly Zwift, some TrainerRoad and Fulgaz).

Keith
trainsktg is offline  
Old 09-24-19, 07:09 PM
  #23  
Boxkite
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 180

Bikes: old and new

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 56 Post(s)
Liked 62 Times in 39 Posts
FWIW- I wouldn't be so keen on a device that tries to immobilize your bicycle frame. It stresses the frame at the wrong points. The Kick Snap clamps to the rear axle and in vids you can see the rider 'torque-ing' the rear triangle unnaturally from the 'lever arm' created at the saddle. I'd recommend rollers. It's a more natural experience. I love my Kreitler rollers and have only needed to replace the belt a couple of times in 30 years. I use them routinely in winter.
Boxkite is offline  
Old 09-25-19, 01:17 AM
  #24  
Nubie
Senior Member
 
Nubie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Kirkland, WA
Posts: 695

Bikes: '17 Specialized Ruby Comp, '18 Specialized Diverge E5 Comp WSD

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by burnthesheep View Post
I bought a used Snap and the bearings smoked on the second ride. Guy was a saint and took it back.

Something like a bloody bearing in a trainer should be lifetime. Belts consumables. If a dumb fluid lasts forever then the mechanic parts that don’t wear on a smart trainer should also.

Wheel bearings in cars last 100’s of thousands of miles. BB in bikes usually last like 5 to 10k miles and they see weather and dirt and bike washes.

To me the warranty needs to be 2 years. 1 year is crap for a $600 to $1000 product. The EU laws require 2 years. Good ole ‘Murica, nope. Caveat emptor.

If I do buy, probably thru REI as they deal with the warranty within 1 year instead of the trainer maker.

I tend to agree that quoted failure rates of 3% are beyond abysmal. That’s nowhere in the “sigma” defect rate ballpark for acceptable quality. I’ve worked in places that track that stuff and we’d work towards 4 and 5 sigma. Not two.

If you worked in manufacturing ever, you’d realize how appalling 3% is.
Sorry to burst your bubble, but REI’s return policy on trainers is 90 days. They consider them “outdoor electronics.”
Nubie is offline  
Related Topics
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
ibanez350ex
General Cycling Discussion
21
03-17-19 01:55 PM
oldroadie48
Training & Nutrition
11
02-20-18 11:01 AM
OUGrad05
Road Cycling
4
09-15-17 08:49 AM
IronHorseRiderX
General Cycling Discussion
23
11-09-15 03:21 PM
jasrub
Training & Nutrition
18
02-23-15 05:32 AM

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.