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Invasion of the E-bikes!

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Road Cycling “It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them. Thus you remember them as they actually are, while in a motor car only a high hill impresses you, and you have no such accurate remembrance of country you have driven through as you gain by riding a bicycle.” -- Ernest Hemingway

Invasion of the E-bikes!

Old 10-09-19, 01:56 PM
  #101  
seypat
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My father and I used to play golf every Sunday. He is one of those super competitive types that always has to have something on the line. I am only in competitive mode when I am in an actual event. Otherwise, it is just a casual/practice day. So, we would meet on the weekend for a "match" with a little coin riding on it. As he got into his late 60's, he started losing distance and his scores ballooned upward. I was playing the back tees and he was playing one of the regular sets. He was getting frustrated but wouldn't move up to the Senior tees because of pride. I finally convinced him, so he moved up and starting playing the forward tees. It started out OK, but with the distance he got back, all of the trouble/ defenses on the course were now in play for him again. His scores ballooned again. So he started rotating between whichever tee helped him on a particular hole. I asked him what he was doing. I told him that he could do whatever he wanted if this was a casual round, but this was an official match with a bet on the line. That is what he had wanted to do. Pick a set of tees and stick with them. Play by the rules. That is what he had drilled into my brothers and I since we were toddlers. Otherwise, call off the match/bet and play the way you choose. He had a big blow up and I told him he needed to find someone else to play with. We haven't played together since. That was about 10 years ago. Pride and ego can lead you down some bad paths.

Last edited by seypat; 10-09-19 at 02:10 PM.
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Old 10-09-19, 03:40 PM
  #102  
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Originally Posted by seypat View Post
My father and I used to play golf every Sunday. He is one of those super competitive types that always has to have something on the line. I am only in competitive mode when I am in an actual event. Otherwise, it is just a casual/practice day. So, we would meet on the weekend for a "match" with a little coin riding on it. As he got into his late 60's, he started losing distance and his scores ballooned upward. I was playing the back tees and he was playing one of the regular sets. He was getting frustrated but wouldn't move up to the Senior tees because of pride. I finally convinced him, so he moved up and starting playing the forward tees. It started out OK, but with the distance he got back, all of the trouble/ defenses on the course were now in play for him again. His scores ballooned again. So he started rotating between whichever tee helped him on a particular hole. I asked him what he was doing. I told him that he could do whatever he wanted if this was a casual round, but this was an official match with a bet on the line. That is what he had wanted to do. Pick a set of tees and stick with them. Play by the rules. That is what he had drilled into my brothers and I since we were toddlers. Otherwise, call off the match/bet and play the way you choose. He had a big blow up and I told him he needed to find someone else to play with. We haven't played together since. That was about 10 years ago. Pride and ego can lead you down some bad paths.
That's tragic. (I would have let him play from whatever tee he wanted. And kick the ball back into the fairway, if he wanted. And get his math wrong. And pay the bet. I would gladly lose each and every bet if I could only play a round of golf with my dad again. Mine's gone. Yours apparently isn't. Let him cheat before it's too late.)
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Old 10-09-19, 04:11 PM
  #103  
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Originally Posted by seypat View Post
If a person truly needs an assist to keep doing an endeavor, I have no problem with that. But, if you and I are contesting the "city limit sprints" on our rides and I start losing them because of eroding skills, I have no right at all to get myself some "assistance" so I can get back to winning. That would be wrong. It would also mean I have no respect for you as a competitor or the sport in general.
If that's how you feel, why would you ever ride with that person - e-bike rider trying to steal your glory? I personally don't have issue with folks riding e-bikes, but we don't have any e-bikes on our fast rides so maybe I'd be upset if we did.

My point is that no one is making you cycle or ride with a specific person. If you don't like something about a route, the group of riders, etc you clearly have the option not to join. Just because the e-bike guy has different perspective/goals than you, doesn't mean they should be criticized.
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Old 10-09-19, 04:28 PM
  #104  
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Originally Posted by Elvo View Post
Us ebikers refer to everyone else as dino bikes, acoustic bikes, or people in clown suits
I think acoustic is the best term.
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Old 10-09-19, 04:28 PM
  #105  
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Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest View Post
Do you drive a car? I'm assuming you do, even though you could get everywhere you ever need to be by bike.
?? This thread has taken a lot of diversions from the original premise of an organized group bike ride where a bunch of 20-30yr olds were riding e-bikes. But, if by 'need' you mean by necessity, then 'horses for courses'. To get where I need to go, I've walked, biked, taken a boat, ridden a train, airplane, and driven a car or been given a ride in one. Most of my transportation, at least measured by time, is actually on foot.

Again though.. I can't connect the relevance of necessity to discussion of e-bikes used by those who didn't need them on organized bike rides.
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Old 10-09-19, 04:35 PM
  #106  
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Originally Posted by burnthesheep View Post
Did you ever go back and look at the segment?

If you flag a ride for "in car" or something like that where someone forgot to stop their GPS, it automatically removes the activity from the leaderboard. What's actually rare or difficult is getting your activity re-instated if you feel it was a real effort. The burden of proof is apparently such that you're better off just trying again.

We have LOTS of local folks who ride MUP's then forget to turn off their gps driving home and bag about 20 or 30 on-road segments. Flag the ride and it's fixed.

It also keeps Strava "cleaner" to bother to flag stuff like that. If you didn't, you'd be very surprised how littered the leaderboards would be with activities from folks forgetting to turn off their gps's.

Shoot, I forgot one day! I went home and removed my own activity.
Yeah I just checked it before I posted this one and it's still there.
There must have been something wrong with their GPS too, not even a car could go that fast in that spot (unless you're driving a really fast sports car)..
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Old 10-09-19, 04:59 PM
  #107  
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Originally Posted by FlashBazbo View Post
That's tragic. (I would have let him play from whatever tee he wanted. And kick the ball back into the fairway, if he wanted. And get his math wrong. And pay the bet. I would gladly lose each and every bet if I could only play a round of golf with my dad again. Mine's gone. Yours apparently isn't. Let him cheat before it's too late.)
Tragic indeed. That was just the tip of the iceberg or maybe the beginning of the end. It culminated with a very serious disagreement on an unrelated issue. It caused a rift within the family that is still active today. It will not be solved either. We only speak on holidays and birthdays. I give him a brief call on those days. That is my duty. His current wife doesn't even give my brothers or I a call if he is in the hospital with health problems. We hear about it second hand through the family grapevine.
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Old 10-09-19, 05:07 PM
  #108  
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Originally Posted by RShantz View Post
If that's how you feel, why would you ever ride with that person - e-bike rider trying to steal your glory? I personally don't have issue with folks riding e-bikes, but we don't have any e-bikes on our fast rides so maybe I'd be upset if we did.

My point is that no one is making you cycle or ride with a specific person. If you don't like something about a route, the group of riders, etc you clearly have the option not to join. Just because the e-bike guy has different perspective/goals than you, doesn't mean they should be criticized.
I thought the thread was about riding with e bikes on organized rides. You asked why would I ride with one in the first place. That's what we are discussing here. People are not going to have a choice unless a separate group/division is made. I ride solo anyway unless I am in an organized event of some kind. I am just giving the OP an honest answer.
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Old 10-09-19, 07:10 PM
  #109  
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Originally Posted by seypat View Post
I thought the thread was about riding with e bikes on organized rides. You asked why would I ride with one in the first place. That's what we are discussing here. People are not going to have a choice unless a separate group/division is made. I ride solo anyway unless I am in an organized event of some kind. I am just giving the OP an honest answer.
I understand what the OP was saying. I was just addressing your concern over an e-bike beating you in a sprint to the county line sign or whatever sign.

I still see this as a bunch of complaining. If it's a group ride & you don't like riding with e-bikes, find another group to ride with.

If it's a large organized charity-type ride and you are stuck beside an e-bike, just ride with a different group of people - drop back or move forward. Or just ride in the lead group. I've yet to see an e-bike in the lead group on organized charity rides. But I wouldn't be upset if an e-bike were in that group as long as they could handle their bike and road like the group.
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Old 10-09-19, 07:37 PM
  #110  
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I'm looking into an ebike for purely bike commuting. I have a feeling it will come in handy when i want to take the kids in the double burley - they're too heavy anymore using just my dad bod. I'm thinking should actually be quite fun really.
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Old 10-09-19, 07:47 PM
  #111  
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Originally Posted by RShantz View Post
I understand what the OP was saying. I was just addressing your concern over an e-bike beating you in a sprint to the county line sign or whatever sign.

I still see this as a bunch of complaining. If it's a group ride & you don't like riding with e-bikes, find another group to ride with.

If it's a large organized charity-type ride and you are stuck beside an e-bike, just ride with a different group of people - drop back or move forward. Or just ride in the lead group. I've yet to see an e-bike in the lead group on organized charity rides. But I wouldn't be upset if an e-bike were in that group as long as they could handle their bike and road like the group.
Fair enough. I can be the complainer and you can be the defender. We can leave it at that.
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Old 10-09-19, 08:48 PM
  #112  
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Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest View Post
You can't put the genie back in the bottle. A lot of people enjoy riding eBikes. People need to accept that.
No argument there.
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Old 10-09-19, 11:19 PM
  #113  
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Originally Posted by Sy Reene View Post
?? This thread has taken a lot of diversions from the original premise of an organized group bike ride where a bunch of 20-30yr olds were riding e-bikes. But, if by 'need' you mean by necessity, then 'horses for courses'. To get where I need to go, I've walked, biked, taken a boat, ridden a train, airplane, and driven a car or been given a ride in one. Most of my transportation, at least measured by time, is actually on foot.

Again though.. I can't connect the relevance of necessity to discussion of e-bikes used by those who didn't need them on organized bike rides.
It was a group ride, not a race. You're really bothered by the fact that people at a ride you weren't even part of rice a type of bike you don't approve of. 🤯

It's not for any of us to say what someone else needs if we're not paying for it.
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Old 10-10-19, 02:26 AM
  #114  
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I don't get it. Cyclists fought for years to get some dedicated bike lanes and paths so we can ride without being in motorized traffic, and we are now going to cede that back over to motorized vehicles? I'm in NYC and at certain times of the day all you will see are ebikes in the bike lanes, being used for deliveries. Is that what we wanted? Do we want our parks to be overrun with bikes going 20 or 25mph on the paths? I'm riding up the Manhattan Bridge, pushing about 350 watts, and some jerk on an ebike brushes by me? Is this what we want as bicyclists?

Do you really want your group ride to be full of people on these things? If they showed up on a ride I'd just go elsewhere. WTF is the purpose of riding an ebike on an exercise ride? I just don't get it. And that Trek video? They should be ashamed of themselves, it just isn't funny.

I'm 64, retired, and I'm in the population that you might think would want this. I've got my own motor though, my legs. You want to go fast? HTFU.

Sheesh.
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Old 10-10-19, 05:11 AM
  #115  
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Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest View Post
It was a group ride, not a race. You're really bothered by the fact that people at a ride you weren't even part of rice a type of bike you don't approve of. 🤯

It's not for any of us to say what someone else needs if we're not paying for it.
I'm bothered by how that story has turned out 'defenders' of ebike users by going into diversions about health issues and a-fib or whatnot. If there's a topic to discuss here, I think it might be about whether we think the industry might be going in a direction where ebikes could become the norm purchase for everyone (young, healthy, old, infirm). As cyclists, how in turn do we feel about that? -- as it can easily be imagined that the bike clubs, organized rides, even the informal races (eg. GFNY) could begin to have allowances for these in the not too distant future.

The commercials that Spesh and Trek are putting out, while a bit funny, aren't really selling the electric road bike models as a solution to a problem (ie. aging, health); they're more angled at 'surprise or annoy other riders at how effortless cycling can be'. I guess this bothers me as a marketing platform.

As new shoppers for a bicycle walk into a LBS today, and if they have the money, I can easily see today's young adult population being sold on the idea of ebikes.. commuting without sweating, only need to use the assist if you want or need to, what's not to like, etc.

Electric longboard skateboards have really taken off too in the last couple years. I used to pass the regular, leg-powered, versions of these riders on my commutes on the MUP.. now they pass me, motorized at 20-25mph. sigh.
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Old 10-10-19, 06:23 AM
  #116  
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These Santa Barbara County Sheriff cyclists sure like their e-bikes!
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Old 10-10-19, 06:45 AM
  #117  
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Originally Posted by Sy Reene View Post
The commercials that Spesh and Trek are putting out, while a bit funny, aren't really selling the electric road bike models as a solution to a problem (ie. aging, health); they're more angled at 'surprise or annoy other riders at how effortless cycling can be'. I guess this bothers me as a marketing platform.

As new shoppers for a bicycle walk into a LBS today, and if they have the money, I can easily see today's young adult population being sold on the idea of ebikes.. commuting without sweating, only need to use the assist if you want or need to, what's not to like, etc.
This is ingenious advertising toward "Generation Snowflake". No one gets dropped (except the stuffy old "analog" riders who are hopelessly behind the times) everyone wins and gets a medal, no effort required, everyone's equal now. (Equality" yay!)

Plus e-bikes are "environmentally friendly" (that's what the "e" stands for) quiet, don't belch toxic fossil fuel fumes that are "killing the planet" (I learned this in community college). Plus, they're trendy as all get go, and you don't need even try to get into shape. On this thing you could pass Peter Sagan, with no training, while pounding IPA's, and still keep your beard, checkered shirt, and 40 inch waist!
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Old 10-10-19, 06:59 AM
  #118  
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Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest View Post
It was a group ride, not a race. You're really bothered by the fact that people at a ride you weren't even part of rice a type of bike you don't approve of. 🤯
Type of bike? Love that. Like he showed up on a Novaro or Scattante. No, it's the "type" of bike that has a &$#*ing motor. It's no longer just a bike. It's a motorbike, motorcycle, moped... the cute little alt-energy "e" just signifies what type of motor. It's a motor.

What makes this whole topic, well... a topic, is that we're combining "cyclists" and "bicyclists" into one group. Touring wine country, commuting, family rides, group rides that state they're open to motors... perfect for moped and bicycle combined rides. As long as the mopeds stay out of the group rides that don't want mopeds, all will be fine.

I actually see the upside of the moped resurgence - better for the environment, traffic, etc. - and I do think it outweighs the negatives that we've hammer on in this thread.

The acoustic bike thing was pretty funny. Somehow, that made me think of vegetarians and vegans (clearly the moped of the bike world)... and how the holy grail is tasting like real meat. See the analogy... like how the moped holy grail is to look like a real bike. ;-)
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Old 10-10-19, 07:09 AM
  #119  
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I have no problem with people riding motorized bicycles. The notion that they are something other than motorized transport strikes me as a bit quizzical.
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Old 10-10-19, 07:13 AM
  #120  
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They have the word "bike" in them. At least moped makers did not have the gall yo try to market their product as "g-bikes" (gasoline bikes). There's nothing "bicycle" about them, except two wheels and some rather useless, vestigial pedals.
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Old 10-10-19, 07:23 AM
  #121  
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I'm ok with calling it a bike if you still need to pedal. If you just hit the throttle and Go, I'd call it something other than a bicycle.

I went out looking for a new bike a few months ago and actually tested a few. I had some preconceived ideas on what they were and how they worked.

I assumed they had a throttle like a Motorcycle or an ATV maybe, but no, its a selector for the mode and how much assist it give you, therefor about how fast it could help you go, while you are still pedaling.

I rode around the parking lot and up and down an few neighboring street. One big hill I went up, I was able to hit about 20 mph. Without the assist I could only get about 10-12 up this hill on my own.

Either way, if that what people want to ride, that their option. If I could afford one as a 3rd or 4th bike, I'd have one...
Several others I want 1st.

I like almost all bikes. MTB, Road, Gravel, BMX/Freestyle, etc...
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Old 10-10-19, 07:38 AM
  #122  
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Originally Posted by fried bake View Post
So you genuinely don’t understand that age and other physical ailments require that once fit people need to use ebikes? Have you ever climbed a hill with your heart rate pegged at 220BPM while pushing a mere 150 watts. Ever heard of Afib? It affects typically fit cyclists, many of whom, like me, used to love to suffer and train, etc...
I'm seeing 'want' here, not 'need' (NTTAWWT).

Accomplish the same thing with a trike fitted with an 11-inch low gear...and no motor.
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Old 10-10-19, 07:55 AM
  #123  
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I'll admit I'm thinking about getting an ebike - to replace my long-in-the-tooth '03 Honda Metropolitan 50. Maybe something like an Evelo Aurora Mid-drive 750. It wouldn't be as fast as the Met' (which will flirt with 40mph) but I'd save on licensing, insurance, maintenance and maybe even a few pennies on gas - plus I could use the paths when opportune and put an ebike on a bus rack or roll onto light rail.

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Old 10-10-19, 08:05 AM
  #124  
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Interesting to view this thread through the lens of the sub-forum's header: It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them. Thus you remember them as they actually are, while in a motor car only a high hill impresses you, and you have no such accurate remembrance of country you have driven through as you gain by riding a bicycle.” -- Ernest Hemingway
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Old 10-10-19, 09:07 AM
  #125  
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Originally Posted by sheddle View Post
Also if I had anything resembling a hot take, it's that while ebikes seem cool, I don't quite get the point of the ones made to look exactly like road bikes. Seems weirdly like if you designed a car but made it look as much like a horse carriage as possible, or something (in other words, it's pretty unlikely that the "ideal" design for an e-bike is to make it look as much like another type of bicycle as possible)
To me, making it a drop bar road bike allows the aero advantages of a road bike which would help with range. It would also ease the transition for lifetime roadies who have spent decades riding in that position.
I suppose a recumbent would be able to offer the best range because of aerodynamics, at least on the road.
As far as mountain bikes, modern mtb geometry and suspension has progressed so far that any e-bike mtb would have to look like a mountain bike to be rideable on rough terrain.
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