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Invasion of the E-bikes!

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Road Cycling “It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them. Thus you remember them as they actually are, while in a motor car only a high hill impresses you, and you have no such accurate remembrance of country you have driven through as you gain by riding a bicycle.” -- Ernest Hemingway

Invasion of the E-bikes!

Old 10-14-19, 01:19 PM
  #176  
Duragrouch
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Originally Posted by jlaw View Post
Lots of choices out there for hub motor folding ebikes in the $1000 to $1500 range - Chinese electrical components, 7 speed, racks, lights, etc.

The one below weighs 48# and puts out about 40 Nm of torque - pretty good for a hub motor - starts at $1299 - supposedly it's stable enough to sit on like a chair when it is folded. 20 to 60 miles on a charge. Batteries are in the seat tube. https://electricbikereview.com/qualisports/dolphin/

If you need more torque then a name brand mid-mount motor set-up (Bosch, Yamaha, Brose, Shimano) starts at around $2500.

That looks great! Very similar to what I have now, sans motor. What matters is not whether you can sit on it when folded, but that it rolls easy (stays folded, wheels parallel). I like the rear motor, was worried about front motor stability as the trail/castering geometry on forks is not designed for both braking, and driving forces. 36 hole rims, nice, durable. Took me a minute of searching to determine that the battery appears to be in the fat seatpost (I didn't see your note until now). Disc brakes. Nice rear rack, appears high enough and far enough aft to allow full-size panniers, just like I have on my current folder. The front rack, I don't like those head tube mounts, the force is over too small an area, especially with an aluminum frame, will fatigue. I much prefer a front rack that braces down to the fork dropout, or V-brake bosses.

BUT... I want to have a low enough gear to crank up hills loaded if need be. My current folder does not, and it has contributed to foot problems (I figured I'd just walk the bike up steeps, cross-training, but it caused plantar fasciitis). I bought a clamp adapter to mount a front braze-on derailleur to the seat tube (and then a double or triple crank) as my oversize seat tube will not accommodate a clamp derailleur. On the design above, not a chance. WAY too big, and the rear gusset prevents a 360 degree clamp. Many Dahons with no front derailleur are coming now with a braze-on mount, just in case it is needed. Costs a buck at the factory. With a front derailleur mount, a double or triple crank with aluminum rings, a better front rack designed for panniers, and retrofitted for better pedals (those ones wear out quick), at that price, I might be sold. But for any bike over $1000, I expect a superb frame and fork warranty. Like life, or at least 20 years.

EDIT: They show a bike in red, but only sell it in black or gray. First red flag.

Last edited by Duragrouch; 10-14-19 at 08:30 PM.
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Old 10-14-19, 01:30 PM
  #177  
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Originally Posted by FlashBazbo View Post
For those of us of a certain age . . . that looks an awful lot like a pedal-powered Honda CT70!
Indeed! My first motorcycle, that.
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Old 10-14-19, 01:37 PM
  #178  
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Originally Posted by myisland View Post
they should all be identifiable so we don't chase after them.
I like having a reason to chase them -- it always encourages me to go harder than I was before I saw them. Taking up a chase after someone I don't know on an analog bike seems lame, but I have no reservations chasing after e-bikes.

Plus, it comes with a ready excuse if i can't quite overtake them.
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Old 10-14-19, 01:49 PM
  #179  
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Originally Posted by zacster View Post
I'm 64, retired, and I'm in the population that you might think would want this. I've got my own motor though, my legs. You want to go fast? HTFU.

Sheesh.
I'm just about to turn 64 and just got into biking by buying an eBike a few months ago. Two actually. A street bike/cruiser and a full suspension mountain bike. I'm fortunate that I was able to do this because I don't carry a lot of emotional baggage about the proper way a bike should be propelled. My last ride was 14 miles each way with a mountain bike trail at the turn around. I was able to go on a 2 mile mountain bike ride while everyone was resting for the return trip.

How much exercise you get is determined by a number of factors. If I try to keep up with the unplugged guys who like to run 20mph, then I get a lot of exercise because my mountain bike motor phases out between 19 and 20. I'll go plenty of stretches at close to or over 20, which leaves me unplugged pushing hard on a plus size tire bike. When I read some of these posts it makes me wonder if these guys are confused about why people play tennis, golf, or go hiking in the woods. Who should want to do anything except ride an unplugged bike?
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Old 10-14-19, 02:03 PM
  #180  
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Being disabled I KNOW an e-bike is in my future. I did ride one once on our bi-weekly rides and it was like turning back the clock. I was 10 again and bike riding was easy. Hills were no problem, and the same with the stiff wind we were riding into. My only complaint when I rode one with the group is that I will have to wear more clothes as I got chilled with my normal bike riding attire. LOL
With my friend being a bike store owner he gets to try all sorts of bikes and the first e-bike he got in I didn't care for, the pedal assist is great but it was almost whiplash time when it kicked in (not really but it was surprising) But the latest one he has in the shop now only helps a little bit, (you can change that. ) And it allowed you to get a workout without stressing out the knee joints or pushing too hard. Hey at 60+ with worn out knees and back a bit of help is needed at times.
And I believe my bike probably does weigh about 50 lbs already... It does take 2 to lift it into the stand. But its the most comfy bike I have ever ridden. I keep it inside the house and have to lift it up 2 steps, I do it one end at a time. Good arm work. LOL While they do make them as Electric bikes I really like the idea of just adding a wheel and only using the power option up hills and when its super windy. I have noticed the battery keeps getting smaller and lighter-and going further.
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Old 10-14-19, 02:09 PM
  #181  
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Originally Posted by Lemond1985 View Post
They have the word "bike" in them. At least moped makers did not have the gall yo try to market their product as "g-bikes" (gasoline bikes). There's nothing "bicycle" about them, except two wheels and some rather useless, vestigial pedals.
Let's be consistent with your logic. You don't ride a bicycle. You ride a Pedalcycle.
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Old 10-14-19, 02:15 PM
  #182  
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Originally Posted by Duragrouch View Post
BUT... I want to have a low enough gear to crank up hills loaded if need be.
If you need torque for a loaded bike on hills, then a mid motor may be better for you - hub motors can't supply as much torque. Some mid motors come with a 'normal' sized chain ring (around 40T) - you could probably switch to a smaller ring but you may not need to once you experience the uphill capability. High-torque mid motors (Bosch, for example) use a 20T ring with a 2.5x reduction gear - more torque but more friction if you ever have to pedal it without motor assist - and a faster burn rate on the battery.

'Court' at Electric Bike Review is a good source for info. on ebikes. https://electricbikereview.com/
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Old 10-14-19, 03:43 PM
  #183  
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Originally Posted by jlaw View Post
If you need torque for a loaded bike on hills, then a mid motor may be better for you - hub motors can't supply as much torque. Some mid motors come with a 'normal' sized chain ring (around 40T) - you could probably switch to a smaller ring but you may not need to once you experience the uphill capability. High-torque mid motors (Bosch, for example) use a 20T ring with a 2.5x reduction gear - more torque but more friction if you ever have to pedal it without motor assist - and a faster burn rate on the battery.

'Court' at Electric Bike Review is a good source for info. on ebikes. https://electricbikereview.com/
Well I may indeed need more torque for the hills here. But at minimum, I want the gears to pedal up the steeps with no motor assist, for exercise, or in case the motor or battery fails. Think of it as manual backup; On an A-10 aircraft, the control surfaces are actuated by double-redundant hydraulic systems, with a direct mechanical system as back up if hydraulics are lost.
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Old 10-14-19, 03:45 PM
  #184  
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Originally Posted by colnago62 View Post
I live in Seattle also, and for many it is the only reasonable way to get to work if your job is downtown. I have a friend that works at Facebook downtown but lives in White Center, which I think is a 10 mile distance. It would take him over forty minutes to drive not including finding parking and the bus system even longer. He puts his bike on high and hits the door to his office in around 35 minutes.
Nice! I commute 16+ miles with a category 4 climb in each direction from LFP to First Hill but I certainly don't expect most people to have the desire to do that. I see lots of e-bikes around and I'd much rather see one of those than another SOV on the road
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Old 10-14-19, 03:48 PM
  #185  
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Originally Posted by FlashBazbo View Post
Funny experience this weekend. In our area, I'm not sure any of us had ever seen an e-bike. But this weekend, a bunch of us traveled to a very nice organized ride through the Sequatchie Valley of Tennessee. GREAT place to ride.


One of the surprises was the number of e-bikes participating. Again, none of us had ever seen one in the wild, so it was a bit of a curiosity. No big deal. Not offended in any way. Just different. Until . . . one of our crew was having a rough day. We came up on one of the steeper climbs and he was having a hard time hanging with the group. A couple of us accelerated around a couple other bikes on the climb but, before the guy having a rough day could get around them, they accelerated away from him. It seemed effortless . . . and it blew his mind. As if he weren't having a hard enough time, this just buried him. He's not accustomed to being dropped on climbs. (He didn't realize they were on e-bikes.)


Eventually, about 10 miles later, he passed the e-bikes on a flat portion and realized they were e-bikes. He's no luddite, but after being dropped by them (thinking they were regular bikes), let's just say he didn't express appreciation for the type.


Again -- I'm not offended by people using e-bikes. But I was pretty surprised so many of them showed up for an organized metric+ bike ride. None of those riding them were geezers. In fact, most appeared to be in their 20's or early 30's. It definitely challenged my presuppositions about who uses e-bikes and how they use them.


Clearly the person in the story has ego issues or he would of been happy when he saw they were ebikes. I have owned an ebike for two years now and have gone on many group rides. Not with the A group. But I never wanted to ride with that group anyways. I live in Austin Texas and there are still many Lance want to be's here. If it makes them happy to ride like that they should go for.


The big issue I see in a lot of the reply's in this thread is they have no clue what a high-end ebike really is and what it can do.


First there are two main kinds of ebikes. Hub drives and torque sensing mid-drive. I own a torque sensing mid-drive.


You can get the same work out on a(some) torque sensing mid-drive as any other bike on the planet. I could plug it into a computer and set it where at a given power setting it was outputting just like any analog bike. That means if you have to use 250w to the ride at 20mph on the flat. I could set that it would take me 250w to ride the same 20mph on the flat.


But the choice would be up to me and that is the biggest difference between and analog and a torque sensing mid-drive. Choice. But a lot of people who have never ridden one don't understand that.


Over 90% of people who bad mouth ebikes are Guys over 40 who wear lycra. Never has a woman ever said a negative thing about my ebike to me nor has anyone under 40.


90% of those have never ridden an ebike nor do they really understand how they even work.


Analog bikes are like flip phones. They do only one thing. Ebike are like smart phones and can be set to do many things. First of all the analog bikes we see these days are part of the evolution of bikes. Ebikes are just the next step on that same path. 10yrs from now most people will be ridding one. Sure there will still be some dinosaurs riding analogs. But there will only be a few of them left. It is already happening in the mountain bike world. EMTB are taking over.


I ride and full suspension dual sport ebike that can keep up with any group of analog road bikes( for that matter I could pass any group if I wanted) one day and ride up and down the side of a mountain the next day if I wanted.


Just so some of you know. If your over 40 and wear lycra and tell someone on an ebike who is not in a race that they are cheating. You have an ego issue and you should take a good look in the mirror.
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Old 10-14-19, 04:23 PM
  #186  
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Originally Posted by DukeO View Post
Just so some of you know. If your over 40 and wear lycra and tell someone on an ebike who is not in a race that they are cheating. You have an ego issue and you should take a good look in the mirror.
I think you could remove the over 40 bit. If it's not in a race & the ebike rider is of no danger to the group or disrupting the natural flow of the ride, I just don't get all the folks having issues.

It's like saying you can't go to a motorcycle track day or auto track day unless everyone has equal horsepower devices.

The cyclists who complain about an ebike beating them would be like a guy in a Mini getting beat by a Ferrari.
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Old 10-14-19, 04:38 PM
  #187  
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Originally Posted by DukeO View Post

I ride and full suspension dual sport ebike that can keep up with any group of analog road bikes( for that matter I could pass any group if I wanted) one day and ride up and down the side of a mountain the next day if I wanted.
I don't want to sound like a jerk by calling you out on this, but if your full-squish ebike can not only keep up with, but pass (drop?), a fast group ride at full gas...color me impressed. Unless you've modified the gearing on your MTB, your motor would be propelling you way above what your cadence could reasonably handle. I only know of one full suspension ebike that would be able to do such a thing through a reduction gear and it's a far cry from being called a "bicycle". Your aerodynamics and tire rolling resistance alone would be a nearly 250W disadvantage around 28 mph, and it goes up drastically from there.
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Old 10-14-19, 04:53 PM
  #188  
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So the arms race is in high gear now. That is scary. It is evolving faster than I thought it would. How long before our MUPs, bike trails/lanes turn into wastelands terrorized by outlaw E-biker gangs? If I was one of those teenagers/penny pinchers commuting on a little gas scooter I would be very afraid. Those scooters top out around 35 on the flats. Imagine slogging along minding your business when a group of E Hells Angels rolls up and encircles you. Think about the carnage that will ensue. We're talking Toe Cutter and Lord Humungous type of carnage. Too much for me. I think I am going to sell all of my bikes and get a Peloton.
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Old 10-14-19, 05:25 PM
  #189  
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So it finally happened to me yesterday on our regular Sunday morning ride....the 86 year old (true!) guy on his recumbent e-trike blew right past and left me and a few others IN THE DUST!

OHHHH THE OUTRAGE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And there he sat smugly eating his bagel and drinking his coffee when the rest of us dragged our slow, analog a**es into the parking lot and dismounted.

I was so annoyed that I almost couldn't eat my egg and cheddar on sesame - but I really like egg and cheddar on sesame - SO I DID!!! THERE!



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Old 10-14-19, 06:31 PM
  #190  
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Originally Posted by jlaw View Post
So it finally happened to me yesterday on our regular Sunday morning ride....the 86 year old (true!) guy on his recumbent e-trike blew right past and left me and a few others IN THE DUST!

OHHHH THE OUTRAGE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And there he sat smugly eating his bagel and drinking his coffee when the rest of us dragged our slow, analog a**es into the parking lot and dismounted.

I was so annoyed that I almost couldn't eat my egg and cheddar on sesame - but I really like egg and cheddar on sesame - SO I DID!!! THERE!



You should have went full Cinzano on his a$$. The nerve of some people!
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Old 10-14-19, 06:58 PM
  #191  
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Originally Posted by jlaw View Post
So it finally happened to me yesterday on our regular Sunday morning ride....the 86 year old (true!) guy on his recumbent e-trike blew right past and left me and a few others IN THE DUST!
Did he give you the requisite 3 feet?
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Old 10-14-19, 07:04 PM
  #192  
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Originally Posted by sheddle View Post
Also if I had anything resembling a hot take, it's that while ebikes seem cool, I don't quite get the point of the ones made to look exactly like road bikes. Seems weirdly like if you designed a car but made it look as much like a horse carriage as possible, or something (in other words, it's pretty unlikely that the "ideal" design for an e-bike is to make it look as much like another type of bicycle as possible)
They did just that back in the day:


Seems the theory was not to scare the horses on the roads.
So the e-bikes keep their pedals to not attract legal attention. (i.e. scare pedestrians/cyclists)
Just as early gasoline technology let go of crank pedals, the now intense development of battery-electric technology will make human input superfluous.
And there will still be bicycles and hybrids and motorcycles of all sizes - because they're all fun. And kids of all ages will participate.
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Old 10-14-19, 08:08 PM
  #193  
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100%. Today’s ebikes debate is the disc brake debate of five years ago. It’s happening no matter how much some people wail about it. In five years half of “roadies” will be riding them and loving it.
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Old 10-14-19, 08:35 PM
  #194  
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Originally Posted by Cypress View Post
I don't want to sound like a jerk by calling you out on this, but if your full-squish ebike can not only keep up with, but pass (drop?), a fast group ride at full gas...color me impressed. Unless you've modified the gearing on your MTB, your motor would be propelling you way above what your cadence could reasonably handle. I only know of one full suspension ebike that would be able to do such a thing through a reduction gear and it's a far cry from being called a "bicycle". Your aerodynamics and tire rolling resistance alone would be a nearly 250W disadvantage around 28 mph, and it goes up drastically from there.

I ride a dual sport ultra from M2S bikes.It is the top of the line ebike coming out of the Asian market right now. It has a 750w Banfang Ultra mid-drive motor and it can do 35+ if I want it to on the flat. I can blow by any analog bike away. It is the most powerful legal ebike in the US right now. But that does not mean I ride it at full power all the time. I ride it at the speed limit of the MUP or streets I am on. I am 59yrs old and lost to back of my kneecap in a motorcycle wreck in my teens and also have had 2 heart attacks. I had to give up any kind of real cycling a long time ago. Until I bought my ebike and it has changed my life! Before I could only ride my analog bike a few blocks away from my house and only on the flat. Now I can ride anywhere I want for as long as I want. I have 1200 miles on it in the last 15 months. I can dial in the workout as hard as I can without worrying if I am going to go over do it.One day I did over do it. I was pushing as hard as I could. It was 107f and I came up to a long light. While I was standing there I over heated from standing still. A wave of baddest can over me. I rode for the next few minutes with just the thumb throttle and let the wind pass over me. Then I started to feel better and I rode another ten miles in peddle asset. I ride farther and I ride for a much longer time on my ebike then my analog. Just like all the studies have shown. Like it or not. Ebikes are the future of cycling.
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Old 10-14-19, 09:02 PM
  #195  
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I think there is some misunderstanding indicated with a few comments. "Good" e-bikes are, as mentioned above, torque sensing. At least with these your effort doesn't just click on the motor. It's proportional. If you put out 50 watts and the motor does the same, the motor won't put out 100 watts unless you do too. Speed on the flats and on hills depends on wattage and weight. It seems like if you rode with someone of the same weight that wasn't as strong they could set an assist level so that you both had the same perceived effort and speed on every grade.

Correct me if I'm wrong though, because I don't actually know if this is exactly how it works - but it would be nice. On the other hand, the e-bike riders always just hit turbo on the hills.

I've read that the places were lots of people people commute on bikes are of course in other countries, but more interestingly, are also flat. E-bikes might be best at getting people in hillier places to ride.

I have a few friends who are thinking of going on a bike tour in Europe someplace. Based on past experience, once one of them decided to rent an e-bike, essentially everyone else fell in line. Trying to go old school with a bunch of e-bike riders is a good way to not enjoy your trip.

Along the same lines, when I started back packing many years ago I was bugged by the horse back riders. I guess it always is a little irritating when you're working hard and it's obvious there's an easier way.
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Old 10-14-19, 10:43 PM
  #196  
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Originally Posted by DukeO View Post
Now I can ride anywhere I want for as long as I want. I have 1200 miles on it in the last 15 months. .
Even an average, fat 65 year old rider like me does 7 or 8000 miles in that time. I'm not putting you down for it but it doesn't seem like you ride very much.

I would not compare riding a bike with riding an e-bike for the most part. They are two different things (mostly).
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Old 10-15-19, 04:56 AM
  #197  
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Originally Posted by fried bake View Post
100%. Today’s ebikes debate is the disc brake debate of five years ago. It’s happening no matter how much some people wail about it. In five years half of “roadies” will be riding them and loving it.
With all due respect ... I really don't see the comparison between a new type of brake technology, and adding an electric motor to eliminate pedalling (which is the one essential hallmark of riding a bike).
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Old 10-15-19, 05:01 AM
  #198  
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I did century a few weeks ago and a guy on a e bike flattened us in the climbs. I was totally sold. Those things rock. I rode a hybrid a few years ago that did not have assist cut out at 15mph and even though you still have to pedal the cadence vs speed was scary and exciting all at the same time.
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Old 10-15-19, 05:48 AM
  #199  
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Originally Posted by DynoD500_SR20-d View Post
I did century a few weeks ago and a guy on a e bike flattened us in the climbs. I was totally sold.
Sold on what? That motorcycles are faster than bicycles? Seriously, I'm confused. I really thought we all enjoyed this sport - pedaling, riding bikes... you know, cycling?

I had no idea so many of you were struggling to find a way to make this an easy sport.

Last edited by Zaskar; 10-15-19 at 06:12 AM.
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Old 10-15-19, 05:49 AM
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Lemond1985
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There are these things called "cars", that make going uphill REALLY easy.
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