Invasion of the E-bikes!
10-23-19, 05:48 AM
#351
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 781
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 479 Post(s)
Liked 277 Times
in
156 Posts
...One thing that is not so fun is how 18 mph is work (fine), but not that much faster is much more work... ...headwinds are a drag. Imagine the ebike figured out there was a headwind and erased it? Hills are an obvious drag. Measure the grade and the ebike can cancel it.
10-23-19, 07:32 AM
#352
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Québec, Canada
Posts: 2,108
Bikes: SL8 Pro, TCR beater
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 981 Post(s)
Liked 582 Times
in
438 Posts
This is a never ending debate. Not all of us have the same vision of what riding a bicycle should be. IMO, I'd rather see an e-bike cyclist than a motorcyclist on the road. Some of us (me included) try to break records every time we take our 5000$ race bikes out while others simply go outside riding their bikes, enjoying nature & fresh air. Which one is better? It's subjective.
Live and let live!
10-23-19, 07:44 AM
#353
Sophomore Member
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 2,531
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1628 Post(s)
Liked 1,057 Times
in
631 Posts
Not all of us have the same vision of what riding a bicycle should be.
Likes For Lemond1985:
10-23-19, 08:40 AM
#355
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 39,216
Mentioned: 211 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18397 Post(s)
Liked 15,494 Times
in
7,317 Posts
10-23-19, 09:04 AM
#357
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 8,515
Mentioned: 69 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3241 Post(s)
Liked 2,512 Times
in
1,510 Posts
To you****
This is a never ending debate. Not all of us have the same vision of what riding a bicycle should be. IMO, I'd rather see an e-bike cyclist than a motorcyclist on the road. Some of us (me included) try to break records every time we take our 5000$ race bikes out while others simply go outside riding their bikes, enjoying nature & fresh air. Which one is better? It's subjective.
Live and let live!
This is a never ending debate. Not all of us have the same vision of what riding a bicycle should be. IMO, I'd rather see an e-bike cyclist than a motorcyclist on the road. Some of us (me included) try to break records every time we take our 5000$ race bikes out while others simply go outside riding their bikes, enjoying nature & fresh air. Which one is better? It's subjective.
Live and let live!
Likes For seypat:
10-23-19, 09:26 AM
#358
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 39,216
Mentioned: 211 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18397 Post(s)
Liked 15,494 Times
in
7,317 Posts
Likes For Cypress:
10-23-19, 10:31 AM
#360
Senior Member
I own an ebike and supply my own power. The only way to supply your own power on a motorcycle is to get off and push. Seems as though you don't know the difference between an ebike and a motorcycle. As one who has nearly 100K miles on motorcycles and owns an ebike I can assure you they aren't the same.
10-23-19, 11:21 AM
#361
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 23,208
Mentioned: 89 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18883 Post(s)
Liked 10,646 Times
in
6,054 Posts
10-23-19, 11:22 AM
#362
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 23,208
Mentioned: 89 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18883 Post(s)
Liked 10,646 Times
in
6,054 Posts
10-23-19, 12:07 PM
#363
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 39,216
Mentioned: 211 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18397 Post(s)
Liked 15,494 Times
in
7,317 Posts
Likes For indyfabz:
10-23-19, 04:17 PM
#364
Member
Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 28
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 15 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 4 Times
in
4 Posts
I agree that it's great doing a long climb under your own power. I didn't mean to imply that that is bad in any way. I personally guess my last real one was a couple years ago at the Bob Cook Memorial Mount Evans Hill Climb. And hey, I finished in the top 90%! Meaning, I wasn't quite in the bottom 10%.
My point on using an ebike and more sophisticated programing was a little like what marketers do. The idea that you can now tailor the rewards to produce a desired outcome. If it's reducing the number of people driving cars to work to reduce the load on highways and to reduce carbon emissions you would probably fully cancel out hills and wind. Having the rider still contribute part of the output, I think, could make people feel more virtuous, so it may actually encourage more usage. If the goal is to make people exercise harder for longer, reshaping the relationship between speed and effort might do that. Maybe also you could have separate factors for power output and weight, so that two divergent people could be matched on hills and flats and enjoy that activity together.
I found a site that predicts rider power for different conditions. For the default here are speeds and wattages:
5mph 11.5watts
10 36
15 88
20 179
25 327
I can't put out 327. I'm more like 120 for any period of time, but I probably ride most of the time at 90. If we reshape this curve we could have:
5mph 25watts
10 50
15 75
20 100
25 125
30 150
The crossover would be at about my current output and sure, it could make me feel like a hero, but I'd probably also kill myself to try and ride at 30. And I'd have to kill myself to do that.
If the goal is only to have every ride accurately represent the riders' unaided ability, don't we need everyone to be on Strava? And everyone has to record power readings, otherwise someone might look better than they are because of a tailwind. And someone might be riding with their friends and get an aero advantage. Someone else might have a better bike, or imagine, aero bars! How about a large display on the back that gives ride duration and average watts?
There are ebikes that just have throttles. A friend rode one and came back saying that there wasn't much point in pedaling - you didn't really go that much faster if you did. I suspect very few of us see a big benefit there. I'd also agree this really is an electric moped/motorcycle. On what I would call a proper ebike, where the riders' output is multiplied by some fixed factor, the experience is closer to riding a bike, with everything shifted up in speed. You still have to work harder to go faster. You still coast to a stop if you quit pedaling and you still go slower up hill. I suppose my idea is in some ways a third category with potentially a significantly different experience.
My point on using an ebike and more sophisticated programing was a little like what marketers do. The idea that you can now tailor the rewards to produce a desired outcome. If it's reducing the number of people driving cars to work to reduce the load on highways and to reduce carbon emissions you would probably fully cancel out hills and wind. Having the rider still contribute part of the output, I think, could make people feel more virtuous, so it may actually encourage more usage. If the goal is to make people exercise harder for longer, reshaping the relationship between speed and effort might do that. Maybe also you could have separate factors for power output and weight, so that two divergent people could be matched on hills and flats and enjoy that activity together.
I found a site that predicts rider power for different conditions. For the default here are speeds and wattages:
5mph 11.5watts
10 36
15 88
20 179
25 327
I can't put out 327. I'm more like 120 for any period of time, but I probably ride most of the time at 90. If we reshape this curve we could have:
5mph 25watts
10 50
15 75
20 100
25 125
30 150
The crossover would be at about my current output and sure, it could make me feel like a hero, but I'd probably also kill myself to try and ride at 30. And I'd have to kill myself to do that.
If the goal is only to have every ride accurately represent the riders' unaided ability, don't we need everyone to be on Strava? And everyone has to record power readings, otherwise someone might look better than they are because of a tailwind. And someone might be riding with their friends and get an aero advantage. Someone else might have a better bike, or imagine, aero bars! How about a large display on the back that gives ride duration and average watts?
There are ebikes that just have throttles. A friend rode one and came back saying that there wasn't much point in pedaling - you didn't really go that much faster if you did. I suspect very few of us see a big benefit there. I'd also agree this really is an electric moped/motorcycle. On what I would call a proper ebike, where the riders' output is multiplied by some fixed factor, the experience is closer to riding a bike, with everything shifted up in speed. You still have to work harder to go faster. You still coast to a stop if you quit pedaling and you still go slower up hill. I suppose my idea is in some ways a third category with potentially a significantly different experience.
10-23-19, 04:37 PM
#365
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Wherever I am
Posts: 8,631
Bikes: Merlin Cyrene, Nashbar steel CX
Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4729 Post(s)
Liked 1,531 Times
in
1,002 Posts
To you****
This is a never ending debate. Not all of us have the same vision of what riding a bicycle should be. IMO, I'd rather see an e-bike cyclist than a motorcyclist on the road. Some of us (me included) try to break records every time we take our 5000$ race bikes out while others simply go outside riding their bikes, enjoying nature & fresh air. Which one is better? It's subjective.
Live and let live!
This is a never ending debate. Not all of us have the same vision of what riding a bicycle should be. IMO, I'd rather see an e-bike cyclist than a motorcyclist on the road. Some of us (me included) try to break records every time we take our 5000$ race bikes out while others simply go outside riding their bikes, enjoying nature & fresh air. Which one is better? It's subjective.
Live and let live!
10-23-19, 04:53 PM
#366
Senior Member
I agree that it's great doing a long climb under your own power. I didn't mean to imply that that is bad in any way. I personally guess my last real one was a couple years ago at the Bob Cook Memorial Mount Evans Hill Climb. And hey, I finished in the top 90%! Meaning, I wasn't quite in the bottom 10%.
My point on using an ebike and more sophisticated programing was a little like what marketers do. The idea that you can now tailor the rewards to produce a desired outcome. If it's reducing the number of people driving cars to work to reduce the load on highways and to reduce carbon emissions you would probably fully cancel out hills and wind. Having the rider still contribute part of the output, I think, could make people feel more virtuous, so it may actually encourage more usage. If the goal is to make people exercise harder for longer, reshaping the relationship between speed and effort might do that. Maybe also you could have separate factors for power output and weight, so that two divergent people could be matched on hills and flats and enjoy that activity together.
I found a site that predicts rider power for different conditions. For the default here are speeds and wattages:
5mph 11.5watts
10 36
15 88
20 179
25 327
I can't put out 327. I'm more like 120 for any period of time, but I probably ride most of the time at 90. If we reshape this curve we could have:
5mph 25watts
10 50
15 75
20 100
25 125
30 150
The crossover would be at about my current output and sure, it could make me feel like a hero, but I'd probably also kill myself to try and ride at 30. And I'd have to kill myself to do that.
If the goal is only to have every ride accurately represent the riders' unaided ability, don't we need everyone to be on Strava? And everyone has to record power readings, otherwise someone might look better than they are because of a tailwind. And someone might be riding with their friends and get an aero advantage. Someone else might have a better bike, or imagine, aero bars! How about a large display on the back that gives ride duration and average watts?
There are ebikes that just have throttles. A friend rode one and came back saying that there wasn't much point in pedaling - you didn't really go that much faster if you did. I suspect very few of us see a big benefit there. I'd also agree this really is an electric moped/motorcycle. On what I would call a proper ebike, where the riders' output is multiplied by some fixed factor, the experience is closer to riding a bike, with everything shifted up in speed. You still have to work harder to go faster. You still coast to a stop if you quit pedaling and you still go slower up hill. I suppose my idea is in some ways a third category with potentially a significantly different experience.
My point on using an ebike and more sophisticated programing was a little like what marketers do. The idea that you can now tailor the rewards to produce a desired outcome. If it's reducing the number of people driving cars to work to reduce the load on highways and to reduce carbon emissions you would probably fully cancel out hills and wind. Having the rider still contribute part of the output, I think, could make people feel more virtuous, so it may actually encourage more usage. If the goal is to make people exercise harder for longer, reshaping the relationship between speed and effort might do that. Maybe also you could have separate factors for power output and weight, so that two divergent people could be matched on hills and flats and enjoy that activity together.
I found a site that predicts rider power for different conditions. For the default here are speeds and wattages:
5mph 11.5watts
10 36
15 88
20 179
25 327
I can't put out 327. I'm more like 120 for any period of time, but I probably ride most of the time at 90. If we reshape this curve we could have:
5mph 25watts
10 50
15 75
20 100
25 125
30 150
The crossover would be at about my current output and sure, it could make me feel like a hero, but I'd probably also kill myself to try and ride at 30. And I'd have to kill myself to do that.
If the goal is only to have every ride accurately represent the riders' unaided ability, don't we need everyone to be on Strava? And everyone has to record power readings, otherwise someone might look better than they are because of a tailwind. And someone might be riding with their friends and get an aero advantage. Someone else might have a better bike, or imagine, aero bars! How about a large display on the back that gives ride duration and average watts?
There are ebikes that just have throttles. A friend rode one and came back saying that there wasn't much point in pedaling - you didn't really go that much faster if you did. I suspect very few of us see a big benefit there. I'd also agree this really is an electric moped/motorcycle. On what I would call a proper ebike, where the riders' output is multiplied by some fixed factor, the experience is closer to riding a bike, with everything shifted up in speed. You still have to work harder to go faster. You still coast to a stop if you quit pedaling and you still go slower up hill. I suppose my idea is in some ways a third category with potentially a significantly different experience.
10-23-19, 06:48 PM
#367
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 23,208
Mentioned: 89 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18883 Post(s)
Liked 10,646 Times
in
6,054 Posts
MUPs, absolutely. The goal is to replace car trips, people who buy an ebike for that purpose (save $$ on gas and on wear and tear on the car) generally don't feel safe on the street. MTB trails, probably not, but this is the road forum so that's not really worth talking about here. What kind of park paths do you have in mind, ones through city parks, something else? If it's national parks, it should be a case by case basis. But mixed use paths, why the hell not one more type of use? I'd rather get rid of dogs on retractable leashes on MUPs.
10-24-19, 05:43 AM
#368
Senior Member
Likes For Zaskar:
10-24-19, 06:56 AM
#370
Senior Member
I have to agree with the other who have stated that you cannot replace the feeling of accomplishment after a long & hard climb under your own power. Cycling is my only form of exercise & I plan to keep it that way. I never look forward to the climbs, but I do look forward to the mental high that I get when I reach the top.
I honestly believe that if physically able people would experience this and the improvements they can make in just a few months, they would seek out human powered bikes. In addition to that, the fact that I can eat like a pig after a 3 hour enjoyable ride, and still be at a calorie deficit is another driving force. The rewards of cycling are many - scenery, physical wellness, mental highs & wellness, along with rewarding yourself with vast amounts good foods following the ride. E-bike riders only get one of those rewards.
With that being said, I am not opposed to e-bikes at all. I don't think this will ever remove the mindset of the type of person who is a cyclist. At the same time, exposing e-bike riders to the joys of cycling may convert some users over to human powered after they see the excitement on cyclist faces following a climb. Don't condemn e-bike riders - just try to show them how much more rewarding a real bike can be and make them jealous of those rewards.
I honestly believe that if physically able people would experience this and the improvements they can make in just a few months, they would seek out human powered bikes. In addition to that, the fact that I can eat like a pig after a 3 hour enjoyable ride, and still be at a calorie deficit is another driving force. The rewards of cycling are many - scenery, physical wellness, mental highs & wellness, along with rewarding yourself with vast amounts good foods following the ride. E-bike riders only get one of those rewards.
With that being said, I am not opposed to e-bikes at all. I don't think this will ever remove the mindset of the type of person who is a cyclist. At the same time, exposing e-bike riders to the joys of cycling may convert some users over to human powered after they see the excitement on cyclist faces following a climb. Don't condemn e-bike riders - just try to show them how much more rewarding a real bike can be and make them jealous of those rewards.
10-24-19, 06:56 AM
#371
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 8,515
Mentioned: 69 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3241 Post(s)
Liked 2,512 Times
in
1,510 Posts
I think Ponyboy's words ring true. "When I stepped out into the bright sunlight from the darkness of the movie house, I had only two things on my mind: Paul Newman and a ride home.".............on my E-bike. There's a deeper meaning in there.
10-24-19, 10:45 AM
#372
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: In the foothills of Los Angeles County
Posts: 25,251
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8261 Post(s)
Liked 8,997 Times
in
4,456 Posts
10-24-19, 01:06 PM
#373
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Québec, Canada
Posts: 2,108
Bikes: SL8 Pro, TCR beater
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 981 Post(s)
Liked 582 Times
in
438 Posts
There are lots of things much more annoying than E-Bikes on MUPs. For instance, dogs, young moms with their huge strollers, pedestrian walking in the opposite direction, group of people walking side by side... I found a solution - I don't use them anymore. A bicycle belongs on the side of the road!
10-24-19, 01:28 PM
#374
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 23,208
Mentioned: 89 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18883 Post(s)
Liked 10,646 Times
in
6,054 Posts
