Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Road Cycling
Reload this Page >

New sport bike-why would I even want disk brakes?

Notices
Road Cycling It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them. Thus you remember them as they actually are, while in a motor car only a high hill impresses you, and you have no such accurate remembrance of country you have driven through as you gain by riding a bicycle. -- Ernest Hemingway

New sport bike-why would I even want disk brakes?

Old 12-30-19, 09:30 PM
  #1  
Miles2go
Zen Master
Thread Starter
 
Miles2go's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Tucson, AZ
Posts: 918

Bikes: More than a few.

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 26 Post(s)
Liked 41 Times in 15 Posts
New sport bike-why would I even want disk brakes?

I'm a performance-focused roadie with a lot of racing background and likely will have racing entering my near future. I haven't paid much attention to the disc brakes on a road race bike discussions but I know from watching pro racing that there are many who haven't adopted them, even with all of the likely sponsor-driven pressures. Just imagine how much a boon it would be to the industry for everyone to find their bikes obsolete and in need of replacement. To that end, many new models like the new SuperSix aren't even available as a rim brake option. The last generation SuperSix is what I'm riding and I've ridden it so much it is time I need to consider finding the next one. To me, disc brakes offer little more than weight, cost and complexity, and I don't care how problem-free someone's experience has been, as I can say the same thing about my rim brake systems while both a racer and high-mileage recreational rider. I also don't care to follow "where the market is going".

Flame away, but I just wanted to register my current view on this and say that I'm out looking for some of the best race frames still available with rim braking. I'll reconsider disc brakes when I see every rider in the pro peloton running them, and even then I'll be skeptical about this.
__________________
Ron - Tucson, AZ
Miles2go is offline  
Likes For Miles2go:
Old 12-30-19, 10:02 PM
  #2  
Russ Roth
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Location: South Shore of Long Island
Posts: 819

Bikes: 2010 Carrera Volans, 2015 C-Dale Trail 2sl, 2017 Raleigh Rush Hour, 2017 Blue Proseccio, 1992 Giant Perigee, 80s Gitane Rallye Tandem

Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 299 Post(s)
Liked 203 Times in 153 Posts
Depends on use for me. I like my rim brakes and find that an ultegra or force level set of dual pivots aren't a bad weight and will stop me just fine, haven't felt like they were ever lacking and I'm a larger person. For cross or gravel I wouldn't go back to rim brakes. When I was racing in my 20s I went through a set of rims in just over a season with 8 cross races, I think velocity's aluminum was softer then though their rims were strong enough to never need a true the whole season. Having worked in shops that were near sections of the Erie Canal trail that were cinder bed instead of paved I've seen plenty of rims that were worn to the point the brake track split so even on a road bike commuter I'd go disc if I still lived there. I'm going into the third year with my MTB discs, 2nd year with my gravel/cross bike and both still have lots of life in the discs and pads despite the mud both have slogged through and of course the rims are perfect. For me that's where discs matter; wet, mud and grit that will tear through a rim. GCN did a couple of tests and showed that a disc road bike can be ridden slightly faster but I've gotten slow enough that while I still race it won't matter enough for me.
Russ Roth is offline  
Old 12-30-19, 10:04 PM
  #3  
Canker
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,388
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 205 Post(s)
Liked 55 Times in 28 Posts
I guess we needed one more of these threads to finish off the decade.
Canker is offline  
Old 12-30-19, 10:33 PM
  #4  
Miles2go
Zen Master
Thread Starter
 
Miles2go's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Tucson, AZ
Posts: 918

Bikes: More than a few.

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 26 Post(s)
Liked 41 Times in 15 Posts
You brought up an excellent point Russ. Most pros and serious racers of my type and focus are not that heavy and in all of my riding and touring, I've never needed to replace a rim due to braking surface wear. Like many climbers, I weigh less than 160 pounds on my heaviest day of the year and I also happen to be pretty good at lead outs and break-aways. My mountain bikes certainly do have discs and in that case I could be an advocate for their use.

Canker: I searched within the last year and didn't see a thread specifically focused on questioning the need for them, though I'm sure there have been many discussions within other discussions. To me, climbing 6,000 ft in a day advocates for a balance tipped toward the best strength(rider) to weight(bike) ratio. The recent recall of BMC's disc forks could be used to back up my argument. The same fork mounted with rim brakes wouldn't have the issue. They sought to gain an advantage pushing disc brakes and it bit them. A rim brake systems may wear the braking surface of wheels, but which system provides equal forces to the dropouts? Advocating for rim brakes doesn't sell new bikes though.
__________________
Ron - Tucson, AZ
Miles2go is offline  
Old 12-31-19, 01:02 AM
  #5  
bpcyclist
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Portland
Posts: 1,116
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 447 Post(s)
Liked 356 Times in 221 Posts
Well, there are a few issues here. One is, you are in Tucson, so rim brakes are not likely to be much of an issue with respect to rainfall, as they might be in Bellingham, say. My current main bike is the slightly less fancy than top-of-the-line BMC racy geometry offering with rim brakes. I ride a lot of miles, but do not race, so I got it with 105.Love that bike. Now, I grew up in Portland riding bikes all the damn time. For years. So, for me, riding a rim brake ride in this wet climate is a non-issue. I know how to do it. It's just not a problem in the least. So, even if you said you were moving to Seattle tomorrow, I still would tell you not to exclude all rim brake bikes on that basis. I think this wet-riding rim brake downside is exaggerated. Just my personal take and I appreciate that others may not share it.

Now, the second thing is carbon fiber wheels. Is that your plan? If it is, then in my view, having read virtually everything I could possibly get my hands on for months and months of study, you should absolutely go disc brakes. I do not like the potential risks of rim brakes on carbon wheels--even expensive ones. Yes, I am aware that you can get alloy or basalt or graphene or whatever braking surface on carbon fiber wheels, but I still don't like the heat situation--especially if you plan on going fast. Which you obviously do. I realize this is a somewhat controversial topic and there are no doubt carbon clinchers for rim brakes that are safe, but I don't like it. I don't like the idea of that heat being generated so close to a potentially susceptible and critical part of bike safety. If you blow out a rim because it fails at speed, you could lose your life.

The last time my insurance agent visited me, my Orbea was sitting in the corner of the living room. He asked if it was carbon fiber. I told him it was. He then told me he had just come from a meeting about a death claim of a customer whose carbon fiber wheel blew out while he was descending fairly fast. The agent went on to say that was the third death claim that year involving catastrophic carbon fiber failure of some sort on a road bike for this massive insurance company. Carbon fiber wheels ain't no joke. I would be very, very skeptical of anyone who pushes you, given how you may want to use the bike, to go with a rim brake bike with carbon fiber clinchers. Just get disc brakes if you want CF wheels. It's the safe choice, in my opinion.
bpcyclist is offline  
Likes For bpcyclist:
Old 12-31-19, 01:50 AM
  #6  
Seattle Forrest
Senior Member
 
Seattle Forrest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 21,202
Mentioned: 67 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12021 Post(s)
Liked 3,365 Times in 1,878 Posts
I've never found them very complex. You pull the brake lever and the bike slows down. Which part is confusing?
Seattle Forrest is offline  
Likes For Seattle Forrest:
Old 12-31-19, 03:18 AM
  #7  
colombo357
Senior Member
 
colombo357's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Murica
Posts: 2,274
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 117 Post(s)
Liked 20 Times in 9 Posts
The war is over. Disc brakes won.

While plenty of people will still be buying rim brake bikes over the next few years, just about all of the the R&D from the big brands in wheels and frames is now being diverted to disc only.

The number of die-hard rim brake fans are just too few to justify the added costs to the manufacturers. Pretty soon you'll have no choice.
colombo357 is offline  
Old 12-31-19, 03:23 AM
  #8  
Miles2go
Zen Master
Thread Starter
 
Miles2go's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Tucson, AZ
Posts: 918

Bikes: More than a few.

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 26 Post(s)
Liked 41 Times in 15 Posts
Carbon wheels have been a thing for over two decades and there are all kinds of quality carbon wheels out there. Every pro team uses them and if you watch highlights of the latests TDF, you will see a surprising number of riders with caliper brakes this year, and likely every one of them riding carbon wheels. Also, I haven't been in AZ for a year yet, and moved here from the PNW, and even did a 65 mile ride in the rain since I've been living here. Like I said, when I see the entire pro peloton adopt disc brakes, I'll consider them. If pros prefer not to ride disc brakes, which most of them have access to, I'll take that as plenty of reason for me to also wait to adopt them. It will save some weight, at the very least.
__________________
Ron - Tucson, AZ
Miles2go is offline  
Old 12-31-19, 03:55 AM
  #9  
Dean V
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 2,596
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 921 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 108 Times in 72 Posts
Originally Posted by Miles2go View Post
Carbon wheels have been a thing for over two decades and there are all kinds of quality carbon wheels out there. Every pro team uses them and if you watch highlights of the latests TDF, you will see a surprising number of riders with caliper brakes this year, and likely every one of them riding carbon wheels. Also, I haven't been in AZ for a year yet, and moved here from the PNW, and even did a 65 mile ride in the rain since I've been living here. Like I said, when I see the entire pro peloton adopt disc brakes, I'll consider them. If pros prefer not to ride disc brakes, which most of them have access to, I'll take that as plenty of reason for me to also wait to adopt them. It will save some weight, at the very least.
Your personal car is nothing like an Indy car and neither would you want it to be.
So why do you think your personal bike has exactly the same requirements and should therefore be the same as what a pro would use?
Dean V is offline  
Old 12-31-19, 04:24 AM
  #10  
Miles2go
Zen Master
Thread Starter
 
Miles2go's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Tucson, AZ
Posts: 918

Bikes: More than a few.

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 26 Post(s)
Liked 41 Times in 15 Posts
Originally Posted by Dean V View Post
Your personal car is nothing like an Indy car and neither would you want it to be.
So why do you think your personal bike has exactly the same requirements and should therefore be the same as what a pro would use?
If I were riding a bicycle to the grocery store, etc., I wouldn't ride a race bike. If I ride a club ride, go on a solo ride, ride an event, or participate in a race, I ride the same bike in all of these cases, a top level racing bike. A pro takes the stress level on the same gear to the highest level, and if rim brakes are good enough for them and have a preference for them, I certainly need nothing more.
__________________
Ron - Tucson, AZ
Miles2go is offline  
Old 12-31-19, 05:33 AM
  #11  
WhyFi
Senior Member
 
WhyFi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: TC, MN
Posts: 29,853

Bikes: R3 Disc, Haanjo

Mentioned: 336 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12961 Post(s)
Liked 2,454 Times in 1,302 Posts
Oh, so it's a rhetorical question, then.
WhyFi is offline  
Old 12-31-19, 06:45 AM
  #12  
shelbyfv
Senior Member
 
shelbyfv's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 6,822
Mentioned: 27 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1661 Post(s)
Liked 932 Times in 559 Posts
shelbyfv is offline  
Old 12-31-19, 06:50 AM
  #13  
indyfabz
Senior Member
 
indyfabz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 26,929
Mentioned: 192 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11377 Post(s)
Liked 3,002 Times in 1,673 Posts
Originally Posted by Canker View Post
I guess we needed one more of these threads to finish off the decade.
But is tomorrow really the start of a new decade? Keep in mind that there was no A.D. 0.
indyfabz is offline  
Old 12-31-19, 07:39 AM
  #14  
rubiksoval
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Music City, USA
Posts: 3,414

Bikes: Felt AR

Mentioned: 49 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2004 Post(s)
Liked 503 Times in 241 Posts
Originally Posted by Miles2go View Post
The last generation SuperSix is what I'm riding and I've ridden it so much it is time I need to consider finding the next one. .
I find this implausible.

Just put new components on it. The frame/fork is fine.
rubiksoval is offline  
Likes For rubiksoval:
Old 12-31-19, 07:40 AM
  #15  
MoAlpha
 
MoAlpha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Land of Pleasant Living
Posts: 5,858

Bikes: Shmikes

Mentioned: 46 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3911 Post(s)
Liked 1,328 Times in 743 Posts
I sense the early symptoms of gestating doubt in all this bombast. Missed menses and a touch of nausea, as it were.
MoAlpha is offline  
Likes For MoAlpha:
Old 12-31-19, 07:43 AM
  #16  
Marcus_Ti 
FLIR Kitten to 0.05C
 
Marcus_Ti's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Lincoln, Nebraska
Posts: 5,131

Bikes: Roadie: Seven Axiom Race Ti w/Chorus 11s. CX/Adventure: Carver Gravel Grinder w/ Di2

Mentioned: 29 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2231 Post(s)
Liked 251 Times in 160 Posts
Originally Posted by Miles2go View Post
If I were riding a bicycle to the grocery store, etc., I wouldn't ride a race bike. If I ride a club ride, go on a solo ride, ride an event, or participate in a race, I ride the same bike in all of these cases, a top level racing bike. A pro takes the stress level on the same gear to the highest level, and if rim brakes are good enough for them and have a preference for them, I certainly need nothing more.
Unless you're 130# sopping wet, have your own private SAG and wrenches in a car tailing you less than a km away at all times, and only ride on 100% brand-new virgin black-top....what the pros do has next to no relevance to you. These pros of course, whine about being cold in the wet--and don't ride with fenders. Geniuses.

My Ultegra disc brakes stop my bike better in all conditions than my Chorus skeleton rim-brakes. There's more control, there's more modulation. They're just plain better. Retro-grouch-ism is just that. If you want excuses to live in The Good Old Days, fine--but just admit that is what you're doing.
Marcus_Ti is offline  
Old 12-31-19, 07:45 AM
  #17  
rubiksoval
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Music City, USA
Posts: 3,414

Bikes: Felt AR

Mentioned: 49 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2004 Post(s)
Liked 503 Times in 241 Posts
Originally Posted by bpcyclist View Post
. Carbon fiber wheels ain't no joke. I would be very, very skeptical of anyone who pushes you, given how you may want to use the bike, to go with a rim brake bike with carbon fiber clinchers. .
I, and many, many others I know, have been riding and racing carbon wheels for nearly two decades. I started racing carbon wheels in 2002, in fact. And those wheels were significantly lighter than the carbon wheels currently offered.

There are lots of things to be worried about, to be sure, but carbon wheels exploding is very low on that list.
rubiksoval is offline  
Likes For rubiksoval:
Old 12-31-19, 07:49 AM
  #18  
rubiksoval
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Music City, USA
Posts: 3,414

Bikes: Felt AR

Mentioned: 49 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2004 Post(s)
Liked 503 Times in 241 Posts
Originally Posted by Miles2go View Post
A pro takes the stress level on the same gear to the highest level, and if rim brakes are good enough for them and have a preference for them, I certainly need nothing more.
Pros don't train on the bikes they race (at least the ones you're watching in WT races). Those race bikes are probably the least stressed bikes of any bike racer ever seeing as how the parts are repeatedly checked and replaced on a weekly (if not daily) basis.

"The highest level" really only means the people riding them are the best in the world. It doesn't mean the gear is under undue stress or anything.

I'd be much more interested in seeing what the one-bike, wannabe journey-man pro, 12000+ mile a year Cat 1/2 guy is on, seeing as how all of their racing and training depends on that one bike.
rubiksoval is offline  
Old 12-31-19, 07:52 AM
  #19  
L134 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: San Diego
Posts: 397

Bikes: 1978 Bruce Gordon, 1978 Lippy, 199? Lippy tandem, Bike Friday NWT, Trek 720(stolen-frame recovered), Rivendell Atlantis

Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 196 Post(s)
Liked 29 Times in 20 Posts
I might be wrong but I thought the point of the post was to find the best race bike out there with rim brakes? I’m assuming new? To me, the rest was an explanation of why that’s what OP is looking for. I don’t race and have no answer but it seems like a legitimate question?
L134 is offline  
Old 12-31-19, 07:56 AM
  #20  
WhyFi
Senior Member
 
WhyFi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: TC, MN
Posts: 29,853

Bikes: R3 Disc, Haanjo

Mentioned: 336 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12961 Post(s)
Liked 2,454 Times in 1,302 Posts
Originally Posted by rubiksoval View Post
I find this implausible.

Just put new components on it. The frame/fork is fine.
He wore it out with his watts - simple.
WhyFi is offline  
Likes For WhyFi:
Old 12-31-19, 08:10 AM
  #21  
Russ Roth
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Location: South Shore of Long Island
Posts: 819

Bikes: 2010 Carrera Volans, 2015 C-Dale Trail 2sl, 2017 Raleigh Rush Hour, 2017 Blue Proseccio, 1992 Giant Perigee, 80s Gitane Rallye Tandem

Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 299 Post(s)
Liked 203 Times in 153 Posts
Originally Posted by rubiksoval View Post
I find this implausible.

Just put new components on it. The frame/fork is fine.
a frame can just look old and worn and if you've got to replace everything why not the frame with it? Most of my bikes look great but I had one that just seemed to be a scratch and dent magnet, definitely wouldn't bother saving the frame for a rebuild.

Originally Posted by L134 View Post
I might be wrong but I thought the point of the post was to find the best race bike out there with rim brakes? Im assuming new? To me, the rest was an explanation of why thats what OP is looking for. I dont race and have no answer but it seems like a legitimate question?
Doesn't seem that way, seems like someone railing against the fact that all they can find in a new road bike is disc and they don't want that.
Russ Roth is offline  
Old 12-31-19, 08:10 AM
  #22  
wgscott
Occam's Rotor
 
wgscott's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 6,149
Mentioned: 61 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2366 Post(s)
Liked 1,237 Times in 648 Posts
You need carbon rim wheels because pros ride them.

You need disc brakes because you had to have carbon rims; rim brakes are a compromise and a safety hazard.

You need through-axles because you had to have disc brakes because you had to have carbon rims because you had to ride what pros ride. Quick-releases with discs are a compromise and a safety hazard.

This is how the industry works.

It is the way.

I have spoken.
wgscott is offline  
Old 12-31-19, 08:11 AM
  #23  
Miles2go
Zen Master
Thread Starter
 
Miles2go's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Tucson, AZ
Posts: 918

Bikes: More than a few.

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 26 Post(s)
Liked 41 Times in 15 Posts
Originally Posted by rubiksoval View Post
I find this implausible.

Just put new components on it. The frame/fork is fine.
It is not implausible, if you are familiar with BB tolerance issues. On top of that, a R5 would be a large enough upgrade to justify doing so.
__________________
Ron - Tucson, AZ
Miles2go is offline  
Old 12-31-19, 08:15 AM
  #24  
firebird854
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 531

Bikes: 2016 Specialized Tarmac Expert

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 243 Post(s)
Liked 66 Times in 42 Posts
I've had the fun situation of melting my rim brakes on descents before. I also wanted carbon wheels without the sloppy breaking or heat build-up issue, so I decided to go disc brake with carbon wheels. I have fabulous breaking in every condition (it makes me laugh when everyone has to start braking farrr ahead of time on a rainy downhill, or refuses to go through a puddle blocking the road for fear of losing traction on their next descent).

You seem to be 100% against the idea that disc brakes on a road bike are a good idea and are leaning into the conspiracy that they only appear to be a good idea because of the on-going commercial efforts by most of the companies designing them, not because they are actually any improvement. Realistically though, I have two race bikes, one with alloy wheels and ultegra rim brakes, the other with carbon wheels and 105 hydraulic disc brakes (Dura-Ace rotors, however, for the bling) and I'd say on a regular sunny day, they don't feel much different, but when almost any inclement weather starts or I have to descend some unfamiliar 2000ft of switchbacks, there's simply no comparison.

So, have fun not buying into the marketing, but rim brakes are about as good as disc brakes when it's dry, sunny, you're using alloy wheels, you have fresh breaks, and you don't plan on actually using them much on long descents. However, if you want near-perfect stopping power in all conditions with carbon wheels, then discs are a no brainer.

As for maintenance, I've had to replace rim brake pads a couple of times a season but have literally not touched my disc brakes whatsoever, never adjusted them, never bled them, just rode and rode and rode with confidence.
firebird854 is offline  
Likes For firebird854:
Old 12-31-19, 08:25 AM
  #25  
Miles2go
Zen Master
Thread Starter
 
Miles2go's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Tucson, AZ
Posts: 918

Bikes: More than a few.

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 26 Post(s)
Liked 41 Times in 15 Posts
Originally Posted by rubiksoval View Post
Pros don't train on the bikes they race (at least the ones you're watching in WT races). Those race bikes are probably the least stressed bikes of any bike racer ever seeing as how the parts are repeatedly checked and replaced on a weekly (if not daily) basis.

"The highest level" really only means the people riding them are the best in the world. It doesn't mean the gear is under undue stress or anything.

I'd be much more interested in seeing what the one-bike, wannabe journey-man pro, 12000+ mile a year Cat 1/2 guy is on, seeing as how all of their racing and training depends on that one bike.
The highest level I speak of is the speed, daily distance at that speed, grades at that speed, braking from those speeds. Yes, their bikes are checked over, but if rim brakes are good enough for to cover the level of performance, there is no reason for me to seek more, unless they are wearing out at a ridiculous rate, which rims and pads do not. Also, I raced Cat 2 in the early 80s and was in line for Cat 1 back in the day. I too inspected my bikes following every race and had training bikes and racing bikes.
__________________
Ron - Tucson, AZ

Last edited by Miles2go; 12-31-19 at 08:28 AM.
Miles2go is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information

Copyright 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.