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Couple of questions about wider tires and rims

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Couple of questions about wider tires and rims

Old 01-18-20, 09:22 AM
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Couple of questions about wider tires and rims

I know I am asking a lot of noob questions - been out of the bike purchase market for a LONG time and there is so much new stuff new. Anyway, another one for the list, this one relate to wheel widths:

So my questions:

1/ For those of you running 28c tires on tarmac and still caring about performance/aero - what rims are you using? I have Roval CLX64s (27mm outer diameter) on my Venge, which is designed for their 24c Turbo Cottons. This expands to about 26mm when mounted, which seems about right for the 105% rule. I had S-Work Turbo 26s on earlier, and those were over 28mm on the rim - ie, wider than the rim, which is an aero no-no. I would imagine a marked 28c tire would spread to 30 or 31 - doesn that get wider than most rims, or have most of you switched to super-wide rims? Or are you guys taking a small aero hit for the greater benefit in RR and grip? Or is 28c still more a gravel thing?

2/ For those of you still using inner tubes* and running, say, a 25c tire that has expanded to 28c, do you fill it as a 28c tire or a 25c tire? My rule of thumb has beeen 100f/110r for 23s, 90f/100r for 25s and 80f/90r for 28s and at 180lb, that has worked well for me for nearly a decade. Context: I am gonna put Veloflex Corsa 25c on a pair of wheels with 28mm OD, and expect it to be around 28mm when mounted. Am wondering if i should treat it as a 25 or a 28.

(*Yup, i have already converted one of my wheels to tubeless, which seems to be going well. But lets not make this a tubeless vs tube debate, please)
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Old 01-18-20, 11:31 AM
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I use Enve 4.5 AR with 28mm Schwalbe Pro One tyres.
I like it a lot and it seems fast but I still wouldn't use it for a road race or TT. Unless it was over some pretty terrible roads.
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Old 01-18-20, 11:47 AM
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Enve 4.5 AR Disc. Schwalbe Pro One tires. 65-70PSI
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Old 01-18-20, 12:09 PM
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@Dean - i agree about not using the 28c during a race. But it would be nice for a long fast group ride, where i dont want a full-on training rig either.

May i know the true width of the tires on the Enves? I have been eyeing a pair of Lightbicycle rims that are 30mm wide (so a bit less than the Enves at 30.5/31mm F/R), but also less wide on the inside (23mm vs 25 on the Enves). This should be a combo that works, i reckon.
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Old 01-18-20, 12:21 PM
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Hed Belgium Plus rims is what I use on both my bikes ... I'm using Continental GP 5000 TL(tubeless on both bikes)

25mm on my Trek Emonda SL6 and 32mm on my Miyata 1000

if you want aero, you have to match the tyre width with the rim width
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Old 01-18-20, 12:54 PM
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Originally Posted by guadzilla View Post
-
May i know the true width of the tires on the Enves?

30.5-31mm
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Old 01-18-20, 07:30 PM
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Originally Posted by guadzilla View Post
@Dean - i agree about not using the 28c during a race. But it would be nice for a long fast group ride, where i dont want a full-on training rig either.

May i know the true width of the tires on the Enves? I have been eyeing a pair of Lightbicycle rims that are 30mm wide (so a bit less than the Enves at 30.5/31mm F/R), but also less wide on the inside (23mm vs 25 on the Enves). This should be a combo that works, i reckon.
Mine measure 33 front, 32.5 rear. At 60/70psi f/r.
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Old 01-18-20, 09:28 PM
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Thanks, guys
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Old 01-19-20, 09:06 PM
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Originally Posted by guadzilla View Post

May i know the true width of the tires on the Enves? I have been eyeing a pair of Lightbicycle rims that are 30mm wide (so a bit less than the Enves at 30.5/31mm F/R), but also less wide on the inside (23mm vs 25 on the Enves). This should be a combo that works, i reckon.
There’s a thread here called Light Bicycle Wheels or something that should have some good info on those wheels and tire fitment. Weight weenies also has some good info.

I have those wheels and I’ll say this. The 105% rule is great for racers but it has its drawbacks. People aren’t morons for running tires slightly wider than their rims. I’ve ranted about this stuff in the thread so I won’t repeat myself.
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Old 01-19-20, 10:21 PM
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Enve 4.5 AR Disc, 28 mm IRC tires. Around 60 psi tubeless.
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Old 01-20-20, 01:54 PM
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Some of these $2k plus wheelsets that are aero you can toss in the trash if you bulge out the wrong sized tire on it. Also, if you put one that's "just a touch bigger" on there like a 25mm on a 25mm wheel instead of a 23mm, you're still losing something measurable. It isn't ruined, but it's measurably slower.

If going 28's, I'd focus on the comfort and maximizing your CRR. Lose a touch of weight and make 25's (or even 23's) feel just fine on the road. I run a 23/25 combo on front/back of some 25mm wide aero wheels and it is plenty comfy.

Your CLX64's actually routinely test out to be some of the fastest aero wheels there are. It's a great wheel. I'd run the 24 turbos you stated, or a 25mm GP5000 and call it a day. You're not going to do much better for all around wheel/tire/aero combination.
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Old 01-20-20, 11:33 PM
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Originally Posted by burnthesheep View Post
Some of these $2k plus wheelsets that are aero you can toss in the trash if you bulge out the wrong sized tire on it. Also, if you put one that's "just a touch bigger" on there like a 25mm on a 25mm wheel instead of a 23mm, you're still losing something measurable. It isn't ruined, but it's measurably slower.

If going 28's, I'd focus on the comfort and maximizing your CRR. Lose a touch of weight and make 25's (or even 23's) feel just fine on the road. I run a 23/25 combo on front/back of some 25mm wide aero wheels and it is plenty comfy.

Your CLX64's actually routinely test out to be some of the fastest aero wheels there are. It's a great wheel. I'd run the 24 turbos you stated, or a 25mm GP5000 and call it a day. You're not going to do much better for all around wheel/tire/aero combination.
Agree about the CLX64s - really like them and with the 24 cottons, the ride quality is great. It's just that there are quite a lot of gusty crosswinds where i ride, and some days i just done feel like dealing with the added concentration needed to keep them pointed straight, so wanted something that was a little less susceptible to crosswinds but still reasonably aero. And I also thought i'd use this to give the whole 28c tire thing a go- everyone is raving about it, so there must be something to it.

It has nothing to do with a desire to get new toys after such a long gap, I am sure. Really.
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Old 01-20-20, 11:36 PM
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Originally Posted by smashndash View Post
There’s a thread here called Light Bicycle Wheels or something that should have some good info on those wheels and tire fitment. Weight weenies also has some good info.

I have those wheels and I’ll say this. The 105% rule is great for racers but it has its drawbacks. People aren’t morons for running tires slightly wider than their rims. I’ve ranted about this stuff in the thread so I won’t repeat myself.
Yeah, i did read that entire thread, actually. It was instrumental in me pulling the trigger on a pair of LB AR36s, for my ongoing R5 build. I havent gotten them yet, and am mainly curious to see how the Novatec 411/412 hubs hold up. If the hubs are good, i will get a 56mm wheelset. If not, upgraded hubs bring their wheel prices to around $800-900. At that point, i might as well add more and get something like Swissides or even Jet 6s.
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Old 01-21-20, 12:13 AM
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For aero wheels, you want ones with the NACA profile, the only profile proven to be optimized for aero. Wheels with NACA profile are Reynolds 65 Aero series, Mavic Comete series. These wheels are 27,28mm wide at their widest part, and are optimized for 25mm tires.

No manufacturer that I'm aware of is making any claim that 28mm tires are aero.

And Veloflex plus latex tube beat any tubeless setup in RR all day long. Though I would use Conti 5000 plus latex for the rear for better longevity, and still beat tubeless

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Old 01-21-20, 11:32 AM
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Originally Posted by aclinjury View Post
For aero wheels, you want ones with the NACA profile, the only profile proven to be optimized for aero. Wheels with NACA profile are Reynolds 65 Aero series, Mavic Comete series. These wheels are 27,28mm wide at their widest part, and are optimized for 25mm tires.

No manufacturer that I'm aware of is making any claim that 28mm tires are aero.

And Veloflex plus latex tube beat any tubeless setup in RR all day long. Though I would use Conti 5000 plus latex for the rear for better longevity, and still beat tubeless
Sorry, i should have been more clear - looking for a wheel/tire setup that isnt a RR setup, nor a solo-training-day setup. Something for fast group rides where some bragging rights and trash talking are involved, but where i also dont want to be absolutely beaten up afterwards that i dont feel like running or swimming after. The Veloflex 25s are my current choice- i am trying to figure if it is worth trying out 28s, what with everyone who uses it raving about it. If it is, i may get a wheelset designed for 28s, just to see what the fuss is all about.

Arent NACA profiles best only in low-yaw? I have seen Mavic and Reynolds make that claim, whereas the wheels that supposedly test at the top of most aero charts (Z/H/E) dont.
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Old 01-21-20, 03:56 PM
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Originally Posted by guadzilla View Post
Sorry, i should have been more clear - looking for a wheel/tire setup that isnt a RR setup, nor a solo-training-day setup. Something for fast group rides where some bragging rights and trash talking are involved, but where i also dont want to be absolutely beaten up afterwards that i dont feel like running or swimming after. The Veloflex 25s are my current choice- i am trying to figure if it is worth trying out 28s, what with everyone who uses it raving about it. If it is, i may get a wheelset designed for 28s, just to see what the fuss is all about.

Arent NACA profiles best only in low-yaw? I have seen Mavic and Reynolds make that claim, whereas the wheels that supposedly test at the top of most aero charts (Z/H/E) dont.
So it seems like you're looking for a wheelset that you can use for "hanging with the A group" while also can do somewhat long rides with some climbing (ie, some 5% gradient for a couple miles). I have the Reynolds Aero 65 clincher rim brake version and their claimed weight is about 1520 grams. For a 65mm wheelset, its weight is quite acceptable for rolling punches kinda ride, but it's no slouch on climbs either if you're not looking to PR climbs. Reynolds also have the Aero 46, which is 46mm, but IMO if you're going to get aero wheels, they need to be at least 50mm or more to make it worthwhile. I'm 122 lbs and I have not many stability issues with the Aero 65 on my typical ride in Socal. Of course this being a deep wheel, a gusty swirl of wind out of nowhere will always going to torque your front wheel, but I have not been surprised to the point of "oh sh*t" yet, and the faster you go the more stable it is. As for the yaw angle, the faster you travel, the lower the yaw angle will become, so yaw angle is really a nonissue at racing speed. Now, if you're just noodling along in 25mph sidewind condition, then maybe a more blunted nose profile may be better. My philosophy is to get a wheelset that will be optimized at the speed that I used it at when it matters, and that means high speed in a group ride where yaw angle isn't an issue.

Veloflex Corsa 25c and Conti 5000 25c fit nicely on the Aero 65. I just checked with a caliper, and these wheels measured 29mm wide at the belly (widest point), 26.9mm at the brake track. A 25mm Veloflex Corsa or Conti 5000 when mounted measured out to be 27mm, which is about within the "105%" rule. Note: the older Conti GP4000 series run a bit wider than the newer GP5000. Reynolds states that these wheels are optimized for 23mm or 25mm tires, and they seem to be on point. A 28mm tire would probably be a tad too wider but I'd say acceptable too. However, a 28mm tire would be pretty tight some frames though. I personally find 28mm tires just to be ever so slightly squishy to my liking in hard cornering. Remember, these are race wheels, not comfort wheels, and I'm not going to try to make a race wheel into a comfort wheels. If you prefer comfort wheels, I'd get a second wheelset in aluminum (ie, HED Beligium Plus or Zipp Corse 30) and put 28+mm tires on them; there are also cheaper wide aluminum wheelset options too. I'm lightweight so going to 28mm doesn't benefit me much and besides I prefer a hard feeling not squishy tire feeling, but if you're like over 180lbs then I can see 28mm would benefit you in the comfort department.
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Old 01-21-20, 05:14 PM
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Originally Posted by guadzilla View Post
Yeah, i did read that entire thread, actually. It was instrumental in me pulling the trigger on a pair of LB AR36s, for my ongoing R5 build. I havent gotten them yet, and am mainly curious to see how the Novatec 411/412 hubs hold up. If the hubs are good, i will get a 56mm wheelset. If not, upgraded hubs bring their wheel prices to around $800-900. At that point, i might as well add more and get something like Swissides or even Jet 6s.
Cervelo R5, right? I think the widest you can clear is 28 mm? If you get wide rims, a nominal 28 mm tire will measure wider. Double check everything before parting with your money.
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Old 01-21-20, 06:54 PM
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Originally Posted by guadzilla View Post
Yeah, i did read that entire thread, actually. It was instrumental in me pulling the trigger on a pair of LB AR36s, for my ongoing R5 build. I havent gotten them yet, and am mainly curious to see how the Novatec 411/412 hubs hold up. If the hubs are good, i will get a 56mm wheelset. If not, upgraded hubs bring their wheel prices to around $800-900. At that point, i might as well add more and get something like Swissides or even Jet 6s.
I got close to 800 as well on mine. I was comfortable dropping that cash on “off brand” wheels because there was no “might as well” for me. There are pretty much 0 rims for rim brake bikes that equally wide (for good reason). Swisside, and to a lesser extent, HED Jets are great for undersized 23mm tires but if you want the most aero + stability out of plump 25 or undersized 28mm tires (you won’t fit more than that in rim brakes) the LB56 is your best option.
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Old 01-21-20, 07:14 PM
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Originally Posted by guadzilla View Post
Yeah, i did read that entire thread, actually. It was instrumental in me pulling the trigger on a pair of LB AR36s, for my ongoing R5 build. I havent gotten them yet, and am mainly curious to see how the Novatec 411/412 hubs hold up. If the hubs are good, i will get a 56mm wheelset. If not, upgraded hubs bring their wheel prices to around $800-900. At that point, i might as well add more and get something like Swissides or even Jet 6s.
Originally Posted by smashndash View Post
I got close to 800 as well on mine. I was comfortable dropping that cash on “off brand” wheels because there was no “might as well” for me. There are pretty much 0 rims for rim brake bikes that equally wide (for good reason). Swisside, and to a lesser extent, HED Jets are great for undersized 23mm tires but if you want the most aero + stability out of plump 25 or undersized 28mm tires (you won’t fit more than that in rim brakes) the LB56 is your best option.
+1.

56mm LB wheelsets are a great combination of width/weight/price. With DT350 hubs they weigh 1568g and cost $797 with shipping. 28mm tires will inflate to almost 30mm on these hoops, so make sure you have the room.
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Old 01-23-20, 05:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest View Post
Cervelo R5, right? I think the widest you can clear is 28 mm? If you get wide rims, a nominal 28 mm tire will measure wider. Double check everything before parting with your money.
Ha, good point. From what i can gather, the frame takes tires that are 30mm measured width, with some clearance on either side (and Cervelo recommends not infringing into that clearance, to avoid frame damage from small rocks being caught up in the tires, etc). But yeah, point taken.
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Old 01-23-20, 06:03 AM
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Originally Posted by smashndash View Post
I got close to 800 as well on mine. I was comfortable dropping that cash on “off brand” wheels because there was no “might as well” for me. There are pretty much 0 rims for rim brake bikes that equally wide (for good reason). Swisside, and to a lesser extent, HED Jets are great for undersized 23mm tires but if you want the most aero + stability out of plump 25 or undersized 28mm tires (you won’t fit more than that in rim brakes) the LB56 is your best option.
Makes sense. I have a disc frame bike, though, so that gives me a little more freedom in rim size and wheel options.

I bought the LB AR36 wheels with the lightweight Novatec 411/412 hubs as a pair of climbing wheels. For the 50mm A-group ride wheels, I was thinking of getting a better quality hub - with DT Swiss hubs, and once i factor in shipping and customs, i am looking at over $1000. My Spesh store quoted me $1450 for a pair of Roval CL50s - 1515gm, 30mm OD and appear pretty sturdy with a rider weight limit of 130kg.

The other thing is, psychologically, I dont mind paying around $500-600 for inexpensive Chinese wheels (I had very good luck with some Yishun wheels off a Bikeforums group buy 9-10 years ago). But once the price tag starts approaching $1000, it reaches a grey area for me. It is no longer a budget option, nor does it provide the peace-of-mind of a "branded" product. So then my brain goes, might as well pay a bit more and get something nicer, and not be stuck in the middle. I realize fully well that the LB wheels are pretty good and that I am not going to get faster riding Hed/Roval/whatever - but the rational mind and the gut dont always agree.

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Old 01-23-20, 06:24 AM
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Originally Posted by aclinjury View Post
So it seems like you're looking for a wheelset that you can use for "hanging with the A group" while also can do somewhat long rides with some climbing (ie, some 5% gradient for a couple miles). I have the Reynolds Aero 65 clincher rim brake version and their claimed weight is about 1520 grams. For a 65mm wheelset, its weight is quite acceptable for rolling punches kinda ride, but it's no slouch on climbs either if you're not looking to PR climbs. Reynolds also have the Aero 46, which is 46mm, but IMO if you're going to get aero wheels, they need to be at least 50mm or more to make it worthwhile. I'm 122 lbs and I have not many stability issues with the Aero 65 on my typical ride in Socal. Of course this being a deep wheel, a gusty swirl of wind out of nowhere will always going to torque your front wheel, but I have not been surprised to the point of "oh sh*t" yet, and the faster you go the more stable it is. As for the yaw angle, the faster you travel, the lower the yaw angle will become, so yaw angle is really a nonissue at racing speed. Now, if you're just noodling along in 25mph sidewind condition, then maybe a more blunted nose profile may be better. My philosophy is to get a wheelset that will be optimized at the speed that I used it at when it matters, and that means high speed in a group ride where yaw angle isn't an issue.

Veloflex Corsa 25c and Conti 5000 25c fit nicely on the Aero 65. I just checked with a caliper, and these wheels measured 29mm wide at the belly (widest point), 26.9mm at the brake track. A 25mm Veloflex Corsa or Conti 5000 when mounted measured out to be 27mm, which is about within the "105%" rule. Note: the older Conti GP4000 series run a bit wider than the newer GP5000. Reynolds states that these wheels are optimized for 23mm or 25mm tires, and they seem to be on point. A 28mm tire would probably be a tad too wider but I'd say acceptable too. However, a 28mm tire would be pretty tight some frames though. I personally find 28mm tires just to be ever so slightly squishy to my liking in hard cornering. Remember, these are race wheels, not comfort wheels, and I'm not going to try to make a race wheel into a comfort wheels. If you prefer comfort wheels, I'd get a second wheelset in aluminum (ie, HED Beligium Plus or Zipp Corse 30) and put 28+mm tires on them; there are also cheaper wide aluminum wheelset options too. I'm lightweight so going to 28mm doesn't benefit me much and besides I prefer a hard feeling not squishy tire feeling, but if you're like over 180lbs then I can see 28mm would benefit you in the comfort department.
Good points, thank you. The Reynolds have never made it on my radar yet, but they do look quite interesting.

Not sure if the 58f is going to be a significant improvement on the 64f of my Rovals, though - where i ride, the conditions are very gusty due to a mix of trees, buildings and open spaces separating the road from the sea. As of now, the only disc wheelset i have are those Roval CLX64s (with the LB 36mms still incoming) - I can manage them, but there are times when i just dont want to go through the hassle. Hence the search for something that splits the difference between the 36 and the 64s, in aero, handling and comfort. I reckon a 50mm front should be good enough - i've ridden those in similar conditions and been fine. So not a pure-on race focused wheelset.but something that is good enough to use on hammer rides and also well-behaved enough for days i want to ride solo and zone out a little.

As i mentioned above, Roval CL50s - 1515gm, 50mm, 30mm width and $1450 - are what i am leaning towards. I suspect the Veloflex might be a bit too narrow on them - the "24" (really 23) Turbo Cottons expand to 26.x on a 21mm ID CLX64 rim. The CL50s have a similar ID, so i am guessing that the Masters are going to get to 28-29. Worst case, i can put the Masters on my wife's incoming HED 6/disc, and get something else (I have a pair of S-Works Turbo 26s that should work well, too).
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