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Disc brakes are now the default on road bikes – and no one cares

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Disc brakes are now the default on road bikes – and no one cares

Old 03-03-20, 12:41 PM
  #476  
eduskator
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Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest View Post
I'm 6'1" and ride a 58 with a 90 mm stem. There's you go, height doesn't tell you your frame size.
Exactly, and neither does the thickness of spacers you are using. It's a matter of preference and that's the point I was trying to make. There's a good reason why the steerer tube doesn't come pre-cut to a specific length. As long as you feel great on your bike, it's all that matters.

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Old 03-03-20, 02:04 PM
  #477  
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Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest View Post
I'm 6'1" and ride a 58 with a 90 mm stem. There's you go, height doesn't tell you your frame size.
When I was first fitted for a classic Italian steel racing bike 35 or 40 years ago, the standard sizing guideline was based mostly on standover height. You bought the largest frame that you could stand over without putting stress on the family jewels. That was a function of leg length, not overall body height. The stem length was the variable to account for upper body size. Back then, and still to today, steel frames were offered in a lot of sizes. The Cinelli Supercorsa comes in 17 sizes, so does the Colnago Master, De Rosas come in 14 or 15 sizes, Tommasini comes in 16. I was 6' 0" back then and rode a 59 cm frame. I still ride a 59 at age 72 having lost an inch and a half to age. My stems have gotten shorter and a little higher.
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Old 03-03-20, 03:15 PM
  #478  
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Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest View Post
There's you go, height doesn't tell you your frame size.
Originally Posted by eduskator View Post
Exactly, and neither does the thickness of spacers you are using.
Poor comparison. The number of spacers is actually an important indicator of correct frame size.
It's a matter of preference and that's the point I was trying to make.
No one is saying your preference isn't important. The reality, however, is that you prefer an undersize frame, and you compensate for the small frame by using of a lot of spacers.
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Old 03-03-20, 04:29 PM
  #479  
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Originally Posted by eduskator View Post
Exactly, and neither does the thickness of spacers you are using. It's a matter of preference and that's the point I was trying to make. There's a good reason why the steerer tube doesn't come pre-cut to a specific length. As long as you feel great on your bike, it's all that matters.
Feeling great on your bike does not necessarily mean you have the right frame size or a correct fit. People get used to something even if it is way off, but it feels normal so they don't notice it.. There are a large percentage of riders I see who have not gotten a proper fitting, most often their seat is too low. People have a tendency to just accept what the bike comes with as being right for them. If your bike is not fit properly to your body, you are not getting the maximum mechanical advantage and wasting energy.

Every one of my wife's and my bikes was professionally fit by real experts and it does make a difference. And when I say fit, I mean seat height, fore-aft placement, stem length and height, handlebar width and depth, handlebar mounting angle, crank arm length and to a lesser extent, chainring sizes and cassette sizing. And, these measurements can be different for road bikes, gravel bikes and time trial bikes.
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Old 03-03-20, 06:36 PM
  #480  
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Originally Posted by eduskator View Post
Exactly, and neither does the thickness of spacers you are using. It's a matter of preference and that's the point I was trying to make. There's a good reason why the steerer tube doesn't come pre-cut to a specific length. As long as you feel great on your bike, it's all that matters.
There is also a safe limit of spacers. I think for your bike it's 40mm. Some are 25mm.
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Old 03-04-20, 08:41 AM
  #481  
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Originally Posted by eduskator View Post
Exactly, and neither does the thickness of spacers you are using. It's a matter of preference and that's the point I was trying to make. There's a good reason why the steerer tube doesn't come pre-cut to a specific length. As long as you feel great on your bike, it's all that matters.
They do come pre-cut to a specific length; a length that offers a range of adjustment while maintaining an adequate safety margin. Ideally (arguably), your most used position is near the center of the range. This affords you some room to change positions depending on your mood, type of ride, fitness level, age or planetary alignment. If you end up with your adjustment at one end of the range, it indicates you started off on the wrong size frame or you made it that way by modifying it yourself; like chopping the steering tube for vanity purposes.

Confirmation bias is a thing.

All three of my bicycles have disc brakes.
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Old 03-04-20, 08:59 AM
  #482  
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Originally Posted by ckindt View Post
They do come pre-cut to a specific length;.
I think most are made to 300mm. I use an uncut steer tube because I want the bar high and don't want to use any contraptions to get it there. I also use frames with at least a 200mm head tube so I don't have to use a big stack of spacers.
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Old 03-04-20, 08:59 AM
  #483  
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Originally Posted by ckindt View Post
They do come pre-cut to a specific length; a length that offers a range of adjustment while maintaining an adequate safety margin. Ideally (arguably), your most used position is near the center of the range. This affords you some room to change positions depending on your mood, type of ride, fitness level, age or planetary alignment. If you end up with your adjustment at one end of the range, it indicates you started off on the wrong size frame or you made it that way by modifying it yourself; like chopping the steering tube for vanity purposes.
.
Absolute rubbish. Some people are very flexible and fit, I know for a fact that this bike fits the owner very well, Using your bike fit theory, he needs a smaller frame so that he could have about 20mm of spacers.

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Old 03-04-20, 09:03 AM
  #484  
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Originally Posted by noodle soup View Post
Absolute rubbish. Some people are very flexible and fit, I know for a fact that this bike fits the owner very well, Using your bike fit theory, he needs a smaller frame so that he could have about 20mm of spacers.

No, it's not rubbish.
That bike may fit very well. It just has no room left for adjustment other than the stem length and angle.
None of that is a bad thing. It's just a matter of fact.

BTW, I think that bike looks great!

Edit:
If you are very advanced in your fitment requirements, then you likely will eliminate the unnecessary/unsightly elements.
The rider of that bike is likely very advanced in understanding their fit requirements for their riding discipline.
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Old 03-04-20, 09:10 AM
  #485  
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Originally Posted by ckindt View Post
No, it's not rubbish.
That bike may fit very well. It just has no room left for adjustment other than the stem length and angle.


BTW, I think that bike looks great!
It belongs to @Cypress

When a bike fits well, you don't need a wide range of adjustment
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Old 03-04-20, 09:19 AM
  #486  
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Originally Posted by noodle soup View Post
It belongs to @Cypress

When a bike fits well, you don't need a wide range of adjustment
I remember it from a few posts up.
@Cypress seems to be very savvy and knowledgeable (as do you) and willing to commit to the fit.
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Old 03-04-20, 10:12 AM
  #487  
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Originally Posted by big john View Post
There is also a safe limit of spacers. I think for your bike it's 40mm. Some are 25mm.
Yep - Maximum recommended is either 30 or 40mm. All CF steerer tube / forks should have similar length recommendations.
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Old 03-04-20, 11:43 AM
  #488  
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I'm sticking to rim breaks for the simple reasons of 1) they work just fine for me and have the past 50 years. I like tinkering with bikes and doing unusual setups to do specific rides. I love riding fix gear and do over half my riding there, One bike goes back and forth between geared and fixed. I have 5 bikes I love. 20 wheels. All the fronts are plug and play. Maybe a tiny tweak of brake cable for the wider Mavic Open Sport rims. Swapping wheels is an easy about to depart thing. I have 3 different standards for rear wheel widths, 120, 126 and 130 so there are limits on what wheels fit which bikes but fixed or free isn't one of them. And I get to have a rear brake with a flip-flop fix-fix. Can't do that with disc. (A lot harder to master correct chain slack with discs too.) Also I have hubs that range from new to 40 years old. Brakes don't care.

In my 200,000 miles of riding I've blown one tire from overheating. 45 years ago, long before discs could have helped me and nowadays they don't ever let you ride down that hill so it isn't an issue anymore. (Mt Washington.) Yes,I've done descents with rim heat in mind. I've done descents with wet rims in mind. (Alba Road near Santa Cruz in a winter Pacific storm on the Mooney with Mafac cantilevers. Yeah, my hands got tired and halfway down I had to go to two fingers. Braked the entire time. Let off and I wasn't making the next corner. There were rivers an inch deep running across the road. And yes, a disk braker would have beaten me down by maybe 30 seconds. Oh well.)

As a tinkerer, I get to add and move spacers to wheels for different bike and gearing needs without sweating the brakes. Might have to insert the wheel a little off if haven't corrected the dish yet, but I can ride the next few hundred miles until I get around to it, no big deal. And altering the caliper for less than perfect dish with either canti, center pulls or side pulls with the sweet flats for a cone wrench takes very little time.

Now, as the OP says, re: new bikes - I really don't care. My next will be custom. I don't think many framebuilders object too strenuously to having to go through the additional work of making the frame rim brake compatible. (And I like the idea that fork blades, fork stiffness and strength can be chosen without discs to think about. There are a lot of sweet rides out there that are not disc worthy,) I do like the clean look of no brake calipers, but I go tho the velodrome to see that done right. Discs totally mess up the look of clean low flange front wheels. And for rear brakes, side pull or dual pivot, you can mount them in front of the chainstays for a cleaner look if you are going custom.

The arguments for wider tires - that's just frame choices. Making rim bike frames that accommodate large tires has been done for 120 years. My Mooney can run 38s or larger in front, 35s in back. (I can run 38s in back if I have too but need to deflate and cannot side the wheel far forward in the dropout. But that has nothing to do with brakes. And I could get the chainstays dimpled.) Discs - a good solution. I'm still looking for the problem. (Not very hard. I've got better things to do.)

Ben
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Old 04-17-20, 03:29 PM
  #489  
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Originally Posted by 79pmooney View Post
I'm sticking to rim breaks for the simple reasons of 1) they work just fine for me and have the past 50 years. I like tinkering with bikes and doing unusual setups to do specific rides. I love riding fix gear and do over half my riding there, One bike goes back and forth between geared and fixed. I have 5 bikes I love. 20 wheels. All the fronts are plug and play. Maybe a tiny tweak of brake cable for the wider Mavic Open Sport rims. Swapping wheels is an easy about to depart thing. I have 3 different standards for rear wheel widths, 120, 126 and 130 so there are limits on what wheels fit which bikes but fixed or free isn't one of them. And I get to have a rear brake with a flip-flop fix-fix. Can't do that with disc. (A lot harder to master correct chain slack with discs too.) Also I have hubs that range from new to 40 years old. Brakes don't care.

In my 200,000 miles of riding I've blown one tire from overheating. 45 years ago, long before discs could have helped me and nowadays they don't ever let you ride down that hill so it isn't an issue anymore. (Mt Washington.) Yes,I've done descents with rim heat in mind. I've done descents with wet rims in mind. (Alba Road near Santa Cruz in a winter Pacific storm on the Mooney with Mafac cantilevers. Yeah, my hands got tired and halfway down I had to go to two fingers. Braked the entire time. Let off and I wasn't making the next corner. There were rivers an inch deep running across the road. And yes, a disk braker would have beaten me down by maybe 30 seconds. Oh well.)

As a tinkerer, I get to add and move spacers to wheels for different bike and gearing needs without sweating the brakes. Might have to insert the wheel a little off if haven't corrected the dish yet, but I can ride the next few hundred miles until I get around to it, no big deal. And altering the caliper for less than perfect dish with either canti, center pulls or side pulls with the sweet flats for a cone wrench takes very little time.

Now, as the OP says, re: new bikes - I really don't care. My next will be custom. I don't think many framebuilders object too strenuously to having to go through the additional work of making the frame rim brake compatible. (And I like the idea that fork blades, fork stiffness and strength can be chosen without discs to think about. There are a lot of sweet rides out there that are not disc worthy,) I do like the clean look of no brake calipers, but I go tho the velodrome to see that done right. Discs totally mess up the look of clean low flange front wheels. And for rear brakes, side pull or dual pivot, you can mount them in front of the chainstays for a cleaner look if you are going custom.

The arguments for wider tires - that's just frame choices. Making rim bike frames that accommodate large tires has been done for 120 years. My Mooney can run 38s or larger in front, 35s in back. (I can run 38s in back if I have too but need to deflate and cannot side the wheel far forward in the dropout. But that has nothing to do with brakes. And I could get the chainstays dimpled.) Discs - a good solution. I'm still looking for the problem. (Not very hard. I've got better things to do.)

Ben
I have a suggestion for the brake argument especially if you are going custom as I have just done. I had Cicli Barco in Italy make me a custom TIG welded Columbus XCr stainless steel frame using their own design Viva stainless steel fork with a carbon steering tube. What is different is that it was made to use Campy direct mount brakes which work a lot better than standard rim brakes and certainly look better than any discs. In addition they open wider than most rim brakes to allow wider tires. Barco makes incredible frames, and they are far cheaper, much nicer and with a faster delivery time than most top US builders. Here is a review of a bike that is almost exactly like mine. https://www.cyclist.co.uk/reviews/66...rco-xcr-review. This frame cost 3,330 euros but it was loaded with extras. The base price for a Columbus XCr frame with a curved stainless fork is about 2,620 euros. With pedals, my bike weighs 18 lbs 14 oz, for a 58.5 size. I could have cut off more weight with a lighter saddle and wheels.



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Old 04-17-20, 04:38 PM
  #490  
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I'm with you. I've had rim brakes since my first bike a three speed Raleigh in 1955. Then ten speeds with the argument over center pull and side pull. They all worked fine NO problems. I bought an Electric bike with Disc brakes a month ago and have ridden it about 6 times. The front disk is now rubbing. God knows why and I've been reading up on how to fix it. What a PITA. Yes, disks are more efficient but so what .
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Old 04-17-20, 04:51 PM
  #491  
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Originally Posted by Johnk3 View Post
...I could have cut off more weight with a lighter saddle...
It really is unfortunate you put that saddle on an otherwise perfect bike. At least it's not one of the yellow ones. Maybe you could get used to an Airone?
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Old 04-17-20, 06:13 PM
  #492  
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Originally Posted by bpcyclist View Post
Lots and lots of hype right now. Disc brakes promote sales of carbon rims, which are driving a lot of business right now. We'll see where it really lands in five years.
That was true two years ago. Now? Not so much. Alloy rims have made a comeback.
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Old 04-17-20, 09:11 PM
  #493  
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Originally Posted by kingston View Post
It really is unfortunate you put that saddle on an otherwise perfect bike. At least it's not one of the yellow ones. Maybe you could get used to an Airone?
The SMP Pro has been my saddle of choice for several years and I have it on several bikes. This particular one has carbon rails and weighs 288 grams.
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Old 04-18-20, 06:53 AM
  #494  
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I've been using Campy for 25 years now. I have two bikes with the new chorus 12 groups. The frames use center mount rim brakes that work great. If you go to the Campy website and read about the direct mount brake, improved braking power is not one of the advantages. If it was, Campy would be bragging about it.

https://www.campagnolo.com/US/en/Com...ct_mount_brake
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Old 04-18-20, 08:06 AM
  #495  
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Originally Posted by Johnk3 View Post
The SMP Pro has been my saddle of choice for several years and I have it on several bikes. This particular one has carbon rails and weighs 288 grams.
I wasn't commenting on the weight.
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Old 04-18-20, 11:26 AM
  #496  
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Originally Posted by Psimet2001 View Post
This is the thing that always makes me roll my eyes back when people start with "Disc brakes are stronger". Uh... the largest rotor you can have is a rim. "Give me a lever long enough and I can move the world."

... The contact patch is the weak link
Help me here. You can't skid the front tire in a straight line on dry pavement on any width tire. At max the rear will be just off the ground or close so how is a fat tire helping here other than the change in handling?
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Old 04-18-20, 11:46 AM
  #497  
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Originally Posted by popeye View Post
Help me here. You can't skid the front tire in a straight line on dry pavement on any width tire. At max the rear will be just off the ground or close so how is a fat tire helping here other than the change in handling?
https://www.smh.com.au/sport/cycling...10-giw2u2.html
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Old 04-18-20, 12:14 PM
  #498  
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Originally Posted by kingston View Post
I wasn't commenting on the weight.
Well, it is pretty hard to tell what the saddle looks like when I am riding it.

One of our LBS used to have over 100 different saddles and a mock up bike with a clamp so you could change saddles in seconds. After trying out over 60 different saddles, this is the one that fit me the best. It is not cheap, with carbon frame and rails, it lists for $480. At my age, I get what I want. If I was just going to put the bike on the wall I would get a https://ciclicorsa.com/shop/wr-compo...carbon-saddle/ that weighs 62 grams.

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Old 04-18-20, 01:51 PM
  #499  
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Always curious about those SMPs.. is there actually a way a rider utilizes/sits on that droopy part at the front? Otherwise.. why isn't it just a shortened saddle and save the weight?
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Old 04-18-20, 02:42 PM
  #500  
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Looks to me like he was at the limit of braking with the rear just off the ground and weight aft.
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