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Tubeless or not?

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Tubeless or not?

Old 04-14-20, 10:52 AM
  #51  
alo
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Originally Posted by big john View Post
the tube will get out of the way.
I wish you would teach the tubes on my bikes to get out of the way.

On a serious note. I have a bike with tubeless rims, that are also narrow. It is very difficult to fit a a tire with a tube in it.
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Old 04-14-20, 11:04 AM
  #52  
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So the only tubeless tires I have installed or helped to install have all had tubes in them. Since the tire bead is the thing you are trying to stretch over the rim and the tube is (hopefully) not between the tire bead and the rim bed, how does the tube make the tire harder to stretch? Especially during a roadside repair when one bead is still stuck to the rim.
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Old 04-14-20, 11:08 AM
  #53  
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I have tubless-ready rims and tires on my mtb and the hardest part is breaking the bead away from the rim. It's just ridiculous! Putting it back on is tight but not nearly as bad as road wheels. I could probably put it on with two tubes in there.
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Old 04-14-20, 11:10 AM
  #54  
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Originally Posted by FlashBazbo View Post
But tubeless tires require more maintenance and they are messier to maintain than tubed. And if one of my bikes sat idle for weeks at a time, tubeless sealant has a tendency to pool and dry as a lump inside the tire.
Originally Posted by noodle soup View Post
I tried it 2011 and was thoroughly unimpressed. The ride was nice, but back then I was using 23mm tires @110psi on Stans Alpha 340 hoops(and Stans sealant). Wire/thorn punctures sealed nicely, but anything larger would send sealant spraying all over the place.
The good news is the above can never happen running tubes. Plus, no sealant means no sealant mess, ever. Yay!

Originally Posted by Rides4Beer View Post
The common answer of "well you can just throw a tube in it if you need to" is also a non-starter for me. Having removed tires and cleaned out sealant, that is something I would never want to deal with on the roadside.
Understandable, and if you're running tubes you'll never have to!

Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
What I take issue with is someone regurgitating that it's too much of a hassle when they have zero practical experience.
There is plenty of information available in real life and online regarding tubeless bike tires. Personal experience is not necessary to make an informed decision regarding if one considers it too much hassle, or simply not worth the additional cost and maintenance for them. Most cyclists have zero experience with airless tires yet somehow have no problem deciding that they are not for them. Might as well take issue with them too.

Last edited by AlmostTrick; 04-14-20 at 11:13 AM.
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Old 04-14-20, 11:20 AM
  #55  
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Originally Posted by AlmostTrick View Post
The good news is the above can never happen running tubes. Plus, no sealant means no sealant mess, ever. Yay!.
The bad news is that you'll be flatting 12-14 times a year, if you live in my area and ride big miles..

Since trying tubeless a second time with wider/lower pressure tires(and a better sealant) this hasn't been an issue.
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Old 04-14-20, 11:29 AM
  #56  
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Originally Posted by big john View Post
So the only tubeless tires I have installed or helped to install have all had tubes in them. Since the tire bead is the thing you are trying to stretch over the rim and the tube is (hopefully) not between the tire bead and the rim bed, how does the tube make the tire harder to stretch? Especially during a roadside repair when one bead is still stuck to the rim.
Let's be clear about something. Not all tubeless rims are the same. The Mavic UST design is a special thing. Your experience with one type of tire or rim does not have much to say about any other specific case.

Surely you are aware that fitting a tight tire requires putting the bead into the center channel of the rim? If there is a tube present and the center channel is shallow, it prevents putting the bead as deeply into the center channel. Particularly near the valve.
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Old 04-14-20, 11:55 AM
  #57  
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Originally Posted by MinnMan View Post
Let's be clear about something. Not all tubeless rims are the same. The Mavic UST design is a special thing. Your experience with one type of tire or rim does not have much to say about any other specific case.

Surely you are aware that fitting a tight tire requires putting the bead into the center channel of the rim? If there is a tube present and the center channel is shallow, it prevents putting the bead as deeply into the center channel. Particularly near the valve.
Over the last several years I have helped people put tires on many different tubeless rims. I only mentioned the mtb because it's amusing. It seems to me that mounting on tubeless ready rims is always a struggle but since I always use tubes I don't have information on mounting them tubeless.

Most of the tubeless rims I recall don't have a low valley in the center, it's flat between the sides after the dropoff from the bead. Since you have experience mounting tires on the same rim with and without tubes I thought you could explain why the tube makes a difference.
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Old 04-14-20, 12:06 PM
  #58  
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Originally Posted by big john View Post
I have tubless-ready rims and tires on my mtb and the hardest part is breaking the bead away from the rim. It's just ridiculous! Putting it back on is tight but not nearly as bad as road wheels. I could probably put it on with two tubes in there.
Yes, this can be hard, too. Always possible, but sometimes a struggle.
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Old 04-14-20, 12:07 PM
  #59  
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Originally Posted by big john View Post
Most of the tubeless rims I recall don't have a low valley in the center, it's flat between the sides after the dropoff from the bead. Since you have experience mounting tires on the same rim with and without tubes I thought you could explain why the tube makes a difference.
I thought that I did.
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Old 04-14-20, 12:10 PM
  #60  
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Originally Posted by MinnMan View Post
Yes, this can be hard, too. Always possible, but sometimes a struggle.
When I'm home I use a big screwdriver and it's still hard. They're 2.8 Maxxis Rekons on 35mm wide rims. I broke the rear wheel and replaced it with a different rim and it is a little easier but that could be because the tire has been on and off so many times.
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Old 04-14-20, 12:10 PM
  #61  
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Originally Posted by big john View Post
Over the last several years I have helped people put tires on many different tubeless rims. I only mentioned the mtb because it's amusing. It seems to me that mounting on tubeless ready rims is always a struggle but since I always use tubes I don't have information on mounting them tubeless.

Most of the tubeless rims I recall don't have a low valley in the center, it's flat between the sides after the dropoff from the bead. Since you have experience mounting tires on the same rim with and without tubes I thought you could explain why the tube makes a difference.
Maybe to help visualize, a profile diagram of a typical tubeless rim helps?

If I understand what's being said... After removing one bead from the rim, the opposite bead has to be brought into the deepest part of the center channel. With a tube, that tube somehow then has to fit between the bead that's sitting in the channel, but be out of the way, so you can fit the other bead back into the rim? Is this how it goes?

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Old 04-14-20, 12:11 PM
  #62  
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Originally Posted by MinnMan View Post
I thought that I did.
Maybe I'll just have to try it myself someday.
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Old 04-14-20, 12:17 PM
  #63  
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Originally Posted by Sy Reene View Post
Maybe to help visualize, a profile diagram of a typical tubeless rim helps?

If I understand what's being said... After removing one bead from the rim, the opposite bead has to be brought into the deepest part of the center channel. With a tube, that tube somehow then has to fit between the bead that's sitting in the channel, but be out of the way, so you can fit the other bead back into the rim? Is this how it goes?

That little curved part in the middle? That part we used to call the spoke bed? Some of these rims don't have that, they're flat across. The question I was asking is during a tube installation on the road where it wouldn't be necessary to break both beads why is it harder to get the tire back on if there's a tube in it? How does the tube interfere with stretching the tire bead? If it's just the tube makes things more crowded and takes room from manipulating the stupid tire, I guess I can accept that.
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Old 04-14-20, 12:22 PM
  #64  
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Originally Posted by Sy Reene View Post

If I understand what's being said... After removing one bead from the rim, the opposite bead has to be brought into the deepest part of the center channel. With a tube, that tube somehow then has to fit between the bead that's sitting in the channel, but be out of the way, so you can fit the other bead back into the rim? Is this how it goes?
Yes, that's the idea. Ideally, if the tube is up in the tire, far away from the bead, then it causes fewer problems. You don't want it interfering with placing the "other" bead close to the center channel, and of course you don't want it near the part of the bead that you are working to slide over the rim. But it's hard to get it to stay out of the way, particularly near the valve, and this makes it harder to pull the bead into the rim channel to produce enough slack..
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Old 04-14-20, 12:29 PM
  #65  
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Originally Posted by big john View Post
That little curved part in the middle? That part we used to call the spoke bed? Some of these rims don't have that, they're flat across. The question I was asking is during a tube installation on the road where it wouldn't be necessary to break both beads why is it harder to get the tire back on if there's a tube in it? How does the tube interfere with stretching the tire bead? If it's just the tube makes things more crowded and takes room from manipulating the stupid tire, I guess I can accept that.
I think part of the confusion is that I think it is in fact evidently necessary to break both beads from the rim, if you hope to have enough tire circumference to get over the rim wall.
Originally Posted by MinnMan View Post
Yes, that's the idea. Ideally, if the tube is up in the tire, far away from the bead, then it causes fewer problems. You don't want it interfering with placing the "other" bead close to the center channel, and of course you don't want it near the part of the bead that you are working to slide over the rim. But it's hard to get it to stay out of the way, particularly near the valve, and this makes it harder to pull the bead into the rim channel to produce enough slack..
A video I came across.. take it fwiw

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Old 04-14-20, 12:36 PM
  #66  
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Originally Posted by AlmostTrick View Post
There is plenty of information available in real life and online regarding tubeless bike tires. Personal experience is not necessary to make an informed decision regarding if one considers it too much hassle, or simply not worth the additional cost and maintenance for them.
Hey - you're back. You didn't answer my previous question, though - did that blog match your experience?

So, back to your above statement - personal experience is obviously not required to make a decision on whether or not an individual would like to embark upon a specific endeavor for themselves; you do you - I don't care. Where I do care is when advice or statements of fact come from those with zero personal experience - this kind of thing directly impairs individuals looking to make an informed decision. Most of the anti-tubeless ire comes from an echo chamber with little-to-no practical knowledge. Do you not see how this -

"Tubeless is more trouble and mess than it's worth."

....differs from this?

"I don't get enough flats to be interested in trying out tubeless; it seems to be more trouble and mess than it's worth."

One is a statement of opinion that implies direct knowledge and some kind of authority. The other acknowledges no direct experience while relating reasons for reluctance. The former, coming from someone with no experience, is worthless at best but has a lot of potential for harm. The latter has some redeeming value.
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Old 04-14-20, 12:37 PM
  #67  
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Originally Posted by big john View Post
The question I was asking is during a tube installation on the road where it wouldn't be necessary to break both beads
uh, good luck with that. Get yourself a road UST wheel and try it.

Originally Posted by big john View Post
why is it harder to get the tire back on if there's a tube in it?
Seems to me I've heard that question already? If you don't believe the answers you are getting and it doesn't affect what you are doing with the wheels and tires you handle, then good on ya, mate.
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Old 04-14-20, 12:52 PM
  #68  
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Originally Posted by MinnMan View Post
uh, good luck with that. Get yourself a road UST wheel and try it.



Seems to me I've heard that question already? If you don't believe the answers you are getting and it doesn't affect what you are doing with the wheels and tires you handle, then good on ya, mate.
I asked the question again to clarify to Sy Reene. I accepted your answer and I deferred to your superior experience. Having worked on cars professionally for 40+ years I like to visualize things and try to understand.

Whether to break both beads? I don't know but I think when I've done this stuff with people we've tried it both ways but I'm not sure. Next time I'm in that situation, if we ever have group rides again, I will be certain both beads are free before trying to put the outside one over the rim. Thanks for your insight.
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Old 04-14-20, 01:07 PM
  #69  
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I guess that I must have had a very painless introduction to road tubeless 10 years ago. I bought a pair of Campagnolo Shamal 2way fit wheels and a pair of Hutchinson Fusion2 road tubeless tires. No need for rim tape. Had a bit of trouble mounting the tires not knowing about the centre area of the rim, but knowing that I couldn't pinch an inner tube, no big deal. A bit of trouble getting the tires to seat, but my Silca super pista pump was able to shoot a big enough volume of air that I was able to pump up the tires with a bit of effort. Once mounted, I didn't bother to inject sealant right away, the tires held pressure very well, almost as well a butyl inner tubes. Meanwhile, one of my friends who was using sealant had a very bad puncture that sealant couldn't have helped, so he convinced me that having a spare inner tube (and boot) was a smart move. Not all that later, I suffered a sidewall puncture that sealant wouldn't have helped, but my tire boot and spare inner tube got me home. Since then, even riding without sealant, I have only had to deal with 2 on the road punctures, one which allowed me to pump my tire back up and ride home 30 km away and another caused by an industrial staple which allowed me to ride back to my car 5 km away, only stopping once to pump my tire back up. In both cases, I was not using sealant. To be clear, I have used sealant from time to time, but not all road tubeless tires require it. My current Hutchinson Fusion5 all season tires hols air without sealant almost as well as a butyl inner tube, so I mostly ride them without sealant. If I have a rare puncture, I carry a spare inner tube, no more fuss than changing one. Since I haven't had to install an inner tube on my tubeless wheels for almost 8 years, I feel confident that the various benefits of road tubeless are a big plus for me. They ride smoother, they have less rolling resistance, and they, very much like a tubular will stay in place on your rim if should flat on a fast downhill
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Old 04-14-20, 03:04 PM
  #70  
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Reading all this I am really glad I listened to GNC and went with Mavic.
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Old 04-14-20, 03:28 PM
  #71  
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Originally Posted by bruce19 View Post
Reading all this I am really glad I listened to GNC and went with Mavic.
Obviously you love your Mavic wheelset, but have you tried them with a tube?

Iíve never needed to use a tube with my Light Bicycle wheelset, but I used a tube during the initial setup(just to compress the tape). It wasnít difficult to get it in there like a couple Mavic users have mentioned.

I trust your experience. You arenít new to cycling. If you couldnít do it, itís probably really hard to do.
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Old 04-14-20, 04:33 PM
  #72  
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Originally Posted by noodle soup View Post
Obviously you love your Mavic wheelset, but have you tried them with a tube?

Iíve never needed to use a tube with my Light Bicycle wheelset, but I used a tube during the initial setup(just to compress the tape). It wasnít difficult to get it in there like a couple Mavic users have mentioned.

I trust your experience. You arenít new to cycling. If you couldnít do it, itís probably really hard to do.
I haven't had to try it yet. But, I have been told by my LBS that it should be easy. I don't know if that's true.
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Old 04-14-20, 06:13 PM
  #73  
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Originally Posted by noodle soup View Post
Yeah, I wouldn't recommend it for you.

I do 12k miles annually, and get 12-14 per year with tubed tires. Last year on tubeless, I didn't have 1.
I now do about half that in a descent weather year. I started using tubeless a couple of years ago and they never gave me a problem until I got caught out 12 miles from home in heavy rain. The tire picked up a piece of glass I suppose that cut the tread in a Continental GP 5000 TLR. I just made it home. The hole had to be sealed with "bacon" but there was a lump where the cord had been cut and I didn't want to trust it.

Today they are making tubeless tires and rims so that they do not fit together well. Maybe if you pay 1,400 for a pair of wheels they may fit better but I wouldn't bet on it. The fit is now so F-ing tight that you need a tire jack (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1) so it would be really difficult to fix out on the road.

And there are some aluminum wheels out there (https://www.probikekit.com/bicycle-w.../12056926.html) that I stumbled across and bought a set. I really like them and they weigh the same as a carbon wheel and unlike carbon they have equal spoke tension. I intend to run these as clinchers so that I don't have to fuss with them. out on the road.
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Old 04-14-20, 08:18 PM
  #74  
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Originally Posted by RiceAWay View Post
And there are some aluminum wheels out there (https://www.probikekit.com/bicycle-w.../12056926.html) that I stumbled across and bought a set. I really like them and they weigh the same as a carbon wheel and unlike carbon they have equal spoke tension. I intend to run these as clinchers so that I don't have to fuss with them. out on the road.
You must be joking -- those wheels weight over 1900g!
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Old 04-14-20, 09:13 PM
  #75  
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alcjphil Your experience with tubeless is pretty much exactly the same as mine. I started 10+ years ago with the Shamal wheel set and a pair of Hutchinson tyres. Man they were difficult to mount. But once on, I found the ride to be a dream. People in my local club mocked me mercilessly because tubeless was all new and crazy back then. The sentiment was pretty much the same that I hear/read on here. Too much hassle.

I am having the last laugh though. Of those who made fun of me? All but one have converted over to tubeless.
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