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Tubelesse!

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Tubelesse!

Old 07-27-20, 03:19 PM
  #1  
mattscq
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Tubelesse!

So this may be a dead horse but I still want some input and to see this carcass get further tenderized.

I've been riding 25mm GP4000s @80-100 PSI for about a year now and I never had a single problem. Maybe I'm a relatively light rider but I've been down some pretty stupid paths (got lost in a park once and ended up doing some roads that hadn't been worked on probably since the 70s that were in worst shape than loose gravel) but I've never had a flat until recently.

Recently, I've remounted my GP4000s on new rims and had to use different tubes because their valves were too short. I ended up using these Conti Supersonics I bought awhile back thinking it'd be brilliant to lose 100gs for basically $20 so I bought them as spares. Turns out they're pretty fragile and when I went home to inspect my deflated tube, the culprit was a tiny hole I could only find when I inflated the tube in a tub of water. I couldn't feel any sharp bits in the inside of my tire at all.

Basically, I think I've been lucky, and my poor luck with my last flat was because I was running very delicate tubes but I do want to get new tires soon. The GP4000s probably still have some good life left in them but I want to try out something new.

My options are these:

GP5000 TDF edition. I found a sale so they basically cost as much as the TL version. I want tan sidewalls. There was an earlier thread with differing opinions on this but I am sold on contrast sidewalls. This is a stupid but huge factor for pro sticking with tubes.

GP5000 TL. To my understanding this is the best all round tubeless tire for now. If someone has another suggestion, I'm willing to hear it out. Only comes in black though and I've never worked with a tubeless set up before. That or Schwalbe Pro Ones so I get my sidewalls

I'm willing to learn and I'm not put off by how hard it is to mount them. I don't think I would mind the maintenance needed either.

Ideas?
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Old 07-27-20, 03:32 PM
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Gconan
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Tubeless all the way! GP5000 that is.
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Old 07-27-20, 03:34 PM
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I love tubeless, but I wouldn't make that step if I almost never got flats.

That said, if you really do want to try out tubeless, you should either:

a) make a commitment to stick with it long enough to get beyond the steep part of the learning curve and give it a fair shake - a *least* a full calendar year.
or
b) make a commitment not to posture and present yourself as knowledgeable and experienced in future tubeless kvetch sessions when you know damn well that you turned tail and ran at the first sight of challenge. Tubeless already has enough an image problem with so many "experts" that talk out of their asses.
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Old 07-27-20, 03:49 PM
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Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
I love tubeless, but I wouldn't make that step if I almost never got flats.

That said, if you really do want to try out tubeless, you should either:

a) make a commitment to stick with it long enough to get beyond the steep part of the learning curve and give it a fair shake - a *least* a full calendar year.
or
b) make a commitment not to posture and present yourself as knowledgeable and experienced in future tubeless kvetch sessions when you know damn well that you turned tail and ran at the first sight of challenge. Tubeless already has enough an image problem with so many "experts" that talk out of their asses.
I had a feeling you would have something to say. One thing I didn't mention is that my old wheels which I converted to my gravel set is tubeless ready and I believe the tires are also tubeless ready. I would be riding them in very different situations, but I could just go buy myself a syringe and some goo and get started that way.
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Old 07-27-20, 04:21 PM
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I run very wide tires at very low pressures, so tubeless makes a ton of sense because the friction is felt a lot more between the tube and tire casing. If you're running 80 psi you don't have as much drag. Still makes sense to go tubeless because the hassle isn't near as bad as what everyone *****es about and now is a good time since you're changing out tires anyway, so if you have the tires + rims the extra cost isn't that high. Once you get them on there you can lower the pressure too and not have to worry as much about pinch flats. You will still have to pack a tube or get good at using bacon strips. Have fun man!
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Old 07-27-20, 04:24 PM
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So, if, having successfully converted to tubeless, you find yourself compelled to help others do the same, is that Tubelesse Oblige?
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Old 07-27-20, 04:49 PM
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If you want to keep tubes and the GP5000 is too prosaic, these have tan sidewalls. The cool/fast guys here use them but they may not be exceptionally flat resistant.

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Old 07-27-20, 05:19 PM
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I faced the same choice, and picked a tire that's very similar to the GP 4000s; the Michelin Power Road. It's excellent. The GP 5000 was too delicate for me. And I have *no* interest in tubeless since I tried that, and, well, it made me appreciate how GD easy working with tubes is.
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Old 07-28-20, 09:50 AM
  #9  
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I would like to take a poll and see if the people who really hate setting up tubeless tires own an air compressor at home or not.

I suspect those who don't own an air compressor would struggle more and be more inclined to swear off tubeless tires; those who do own one probably think it's no big deal to set them up.

We should do a poll and throw the results in a Venn diagram.

I inherited a 5hp compressor - I can't imagine setting up tubeless tires w/o it (yes I know it can be done but sounds dreadful)

I have ran butyl inner tubes, tubular (latex), and tubeless. So far I think tubeless is the best for the non-competitive, multi-surface riding that I do, but I am not too dogmatic. If i raced I'd run tubulars. If I lived in an apartment I'd run inner tubes.

Last edited by davei1980; 07-28-20 at 09:53 AM.
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Old 07-28-20, 09:55 AM
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Originally Posted by davei1980 View Post
I would like to take a poll and see if the people who really hate setting up tubeless tires own an air compressor at home or not.

I suspect those who don't own an air compressor would struggle more and be more inclined to swear off tubeless tires; those who do own one probably think it's no big deal to set them up.

We should do a poll and throw the results in a Venn diagram.

I inherited a 5hp compressor - I can't imagine setting up tubeless tires w/o it (yes I know it can be done but sounds dreadful)
It seems like a lot of people who got their tubeless tires set up seem to like them. A lot of videos online seem to make tubeless look very easy even without the compressor blast.

One question for people with tubeless: is it true that you should avoid compressed CO2 as the decompressing gas can freeze the sealant? Is that a real problem? Does the sealant just thaw? Presumably it's designed to handle winter conditions (though maybe CO2 can easily go below winter temperatures and below the sealant freeze point?). If it's not a real issue, it seems like a $2 CO2 canister is a pretty inexpensive way to get started on tubeless.

I also read that the GP5000TLs have a self-healing layer and could be run without sealant but it's recommended to include a bit of goo anyway. Has anybody run 5000TLs on their own?
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Old 07-28-20, 10:11 AM
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Originally Posted by mattscq View Post
It seems like a lot of people who got their tubeless tires set up seem to like them. A lot of videos online seem to make tubeless look very easy even without the compressor blast.

One question for people with tubeless: is it true that you should avoid compressed CO2 as the decompressing gas can freeze the sealant? Is that a real problem? Does the sealant just thaw? Presumably it's designed to handle winter conditions (though maybe CO2 can easily go below winter temperatures and below the sealant freeze point?). If it's not a real issue, it seems like a $2 CO2 canister is a pretty inexpensive way to get started on tubeless.

I also read that the GP5000TLs have a self-healing layer and could be run without sealant but it's recommended to include a bit of goo anyway. Has anybody run 5000TLs on their own?
So full disclousre, no experience w/ CO2 but here's my take on what I know about working w/ compressed gasses:

CO2 is a gas and will quickly rise to the ambient temperature. If you point the presta valve up and away (like 10 o'clock) from where the sealant pools in the bottom of the tire, the CO2 wouldn't be any where NEAR cold enough to freeze the sealant, only a direct blast could do that if the presta valve was at the bottom dead center (6 o'clock) position.

I also understand sealant is water based so freezing/thawing shouldn't be a problem. I ride my bike in the PNW in sub freezing temps with no problems (see my avatar <- ). Millions of Minnesota riders can't be wrong either!! So I dont' think a little ice formation is a big deal either.

The only downside I can see to this approach is it's a one-shot deal. I have had to wrestle with stubborn tires and refill with air more than once, which is easy with an air compressor. There are work-arounds, like putting a tube in, unseating only 1 bead, removing the tube, replacing the valve, and then use compressed air, pump, or CO2 to set just the one bead. The theory there being you don't need quite the rush of air to set two beads as you do just the one. At that point, it is a lot of work.

I think another thing that gets overlooked is tires are shipped folded up and not round at all, creating natural areas to lose air and sealant once on a rim. I have heard of guys riding around on inner tubes for as many as 2 days to get the tires "used" to being round. Then popping off one bead, adding a valve, and setting up tubeless. I have never had this problem but I can totally see it as used tires are super easy to set up compared to brand new ones. Could also be that the sealant acts as a nice bead lubricant. That reminds me, I have a plug I have to go pull out and add a patch today. Guess I am getting some quality time with the ol' air compressor today!

Last edited by davei1980; 07-28-20 at 10:19 AM.
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Old 07-28-20, 01:39 PM
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TL road appears to be a fading fad. Just today the new s-works Tarmac SL7 was announced with a carbon clincher wheel set. No TL.

Just saying! ;-)

"When the design team looked at what it wanted to achieve in terms of aerodynamics, weight, stability and ride quality, going tubeless wasn't possible. The brand says that it wanted the highest performing package, and that dictated an inner tube-type wheel."

https://road.cc/content/tech-news/sp...er-aero-275971

(it IS true, but just kidding)

Last edited by Racing Dan; 07-28-20 at 01:43 PM.
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Old 07-28-20, 02:01 PM
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Originally Posted by davei1980 View Post
....

I also understand sealant is water based so freezing/thawing shouldn't be a problem. I ride my bike in the PNW in sub freezing temps with no problems (see my avatar <- ). Millions of Minnesota riders can't be wrong either!! So I dont' think a little ice formation is a big deal either.

....!
Complete aside but funny - last year's Cycle Oregon. Days 1-4 it rained sometimes hard. Bikes were outdoors 100% of the time. Night 3 was east of the Cascades and dropped into the 20s. Rained hard before we awoke. I started at around 8am - on a completely square wheel! The bike was near un-rideable! I bumped along for most of the first hour until the sun warmed enough to thaw the brinks in my tire. (How I got water inside the tire? No clue. Just the jarring evidence that is was frozen solid. But then, for three days, nothing had been dry. Water inside my pump? Probably Water in air lines of communal pumps? Well, they hung out in the same weather.)

Ben
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Old 07-28-20, 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted by 79pmooney View Post
Complete aside but funny - last year's Cycle Oregon. Days 1-4 it rained sometimes hard. Bikes were outdoors 100% of the time. Night 3 was east of the Cascades and dropped into the 20s. Rained hard before we awoke. I started at around 8am - on a completely square wheel! The bike was near un-rideable! I bumped along for most of the first hour until the sun warmed enough to thaw the brinks in my tire. (How I got water inside the tire? No clue. Just the jarring evidence that is was frozen solid. But then, for three days, nothing had been dry. Water inside my pump? Probably Water in air lines of communal pumps? Well, they hung out in the same weather.)

Ben
Oh wow! That's hilarious! Only in the NW, right?
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Old 07-29-20, 11:05 AM
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Couple things:

5000tl with no sealant, Iíve run mine without for a couple weeks with no issues just had to get to the store to get some. I put sealant in for the obvious reasons but had no problem the few weeks with none.

C02 with sealant. I have had once but only once where the sealant had done its job and protected me from a decent sized cut. I decided though that since I had lost some air that I would put some C02 in. Valve was at the top but when I used the cartridge I do think that it froze some of the sealant which then had whatever particles in the cut and lost some more air as a result. No idea if this is factual or what happened but it happened to me when I used the cartridge and I didnít seem to be losing any more air pre cartridge once the cut had sealed.

I still carry cartridges with me But added some lezyn plugs to my saddle bag just in case.
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