sfrider 

Is that ever a limitation? I can't recall ever thinking to myself, "wow if only these tires had better grip!"

Seattle Forrest

My 4.5 ARs were designed for 28 mm tires. I'm trying to figure out which size in these tires is best for my wheels. Obviously it's not a tan sidewall one, but that only narrows it down so much.

smashndash

Yes. I’m frequently ride on the knife’s edge and recently crashed after switching from my race wheels (with vittoria corsas) to training wheels (beat up 4 year old turbo pros). I foolishly tried to think exactly like you - “the tires aren’t the limiter; I am”. It’s utter nonsense. I could feel the tires screaming at me and yet I chose to push.

“If only these tires had better grip” is all I think about when I’m trying to hold someone’s wheel going 50 down a mountain. How could you not?

I’m not saying everyone needs all the grip in the world. But if you’re riding with the kind of crowd where half a watt of aero or 3 watts of RR matters, chances are that grip matters too.

rubiksoval

I very much agree with this, and stopped riding both Shwalbe Pro Ones and Michelin Power Comps because they lacked the traction I got with Conti 4000s in the wet and dry, but I don't know how they'd ever qualify that into useful information for a consumer to use when making a purchase.

WhyFi

Did you see the chart? I mean, it does give you three "optimal" pairings, 27mm, 29mm, and 31mm, but at least it has the WAM specs (side note: it'll be great when more manufacturers provide WAM [width as mounted] and RAM [radius as mounted] specs); if you really want to, this would at least make it easy to go by the 105 rule (or whatever it is) -

burnthesheep

I might be wrong, but sometimes the tire/wheel pairing is meant to optimize the aero interface. That was the idea with Mavic and the tire/rim strip deal on the CXR. If that's the case, it would tend to cater more to TT/triathlon for pure aero and CRR versus grip needed for other racing. Again, I may be wrong. Grip does matter, but not sure how any company could quantify that.

Also, not to say they wouldn't work on other wheels............but LOTS of other aero wheel companies pick one or two really popular tires to design the wheel around. Like a GP4000 or GP5000. Going with these, unless someone tries it first with your exact wheels....you wouldn't know before buying how they'd match up.

WhyFi

This is why the WAM/RAM specs should be pushed. Pirelli is doing it on their new tires and ENVE at least has the WAM; I hope that others follow suit. For now, Schwalbe has at least said that their new tires should measure out to their nominal with a 19mm int width rim, so it gives you a decent idea of a starting point, while Conti has been more vague, simply saying that they're sized with "modern width" rims in mind.

burnthesheep

Agreed. The bulging out and internal widths versus external at different pressures matters for some people. It's way too much to think about for most.......but when you're spending $1k for possibly ONE front wheel for time trial or triathlon.........you don't want to ruin the entire point of that purchase by purchasing a tire and size that doesn't work.

I think at slower speeds the gains in CRR of a larger tire on some aero wheels might work out fine. But the aero losses of the bigger tire bulging out at higher speeds far outweigh the CRR gain. That's why Enve and others are designing wider aero wheels now. Play both games at the same time.

One thing I'm surprised hasn't come back from Conti or others is the concept of the "attack/force" aero tires. Their CRR wasn't great, but they tested out pretty good in some tire/wheel aero tests I've come across. I would love for them to release an "aero" version of the GP5000 TL. Even if not branded as such.

greatscott

Interesting idea, but how many Enve tires would it take to equal the width of one Porsche 911 GT3RS tire? Plus the Enve tires will last maybe 3,000 miles while the Porsche tires will last 30,000 miles, so now you have to apply the math of that and you'll be shocked to see that the bike tires will cost a great deal more than Porsche tires will over time.

DrIsotope

Absolutely unfair to blame the roadie tax on ENVE-- we don't even know how much their tires will cost yet (though I assume on par with a GP5000.) The "bike tire vs. car tire disparity" is a long running one, and every single manufacturer is guilty of it. In this case, I give ENVE a soft pass because they don't make automobile tires. I still have the screenshots from before the release of the Conti GP5000. Relative to the GP5000, the Extreme Contact is 8 times as wide, lasts 20 times as long, and costs about the same.

smashndash

This is true, but it’s also true that getting Enve product below RRP is extremely rare.

DrIsotope

Normal person's opinion, if you're fine with $2,500 for wheels, you probably don't flinch too hard at $90 tires. I spent like $700 for the wheels... on my car, which means there's four of 'em. And they were forged in Japan.

Further normal person's opinion, ENVE wheels are too expensive, their tires will be too expensive, pretty much everything in this life is too expensive. Except TVs. Those things are dirt cheap now.

sfrider 

Well, I have ENVE SES wheels and would pay $90 if I had to. But I don't have to, so why would I? I'll just keep riding GP5000TL's or whatever seems competitive in the future.

And I just found GP5000TL 700x28 in stock (just received them today). $60 from Amain Cycling: https://www.amaincycling.com/contine...72580?v=871693

aclinjury

the GT3RS rear tires ain't gonna last 30k unless it's all easy boulevard miles!

sfrider 

How many Porsches out there ever get to see a track... 5%? 1%? 0.01%?

Bah Humbug

I have a (dentist, yes) friend who (before feeling the burning need to upgrade his 808s to 858s) said he would spend two grand on an Enve rear disc to match his 6 front for tri. Just so it would match, aesthetically. He'd totally pay $90 a pop for tires to be matchy-matchy. Or would have last year.

aclinjury

probably akin to the percentage of Hummers seeing dirt vs driveway pavement
Joking aside, I vaguely recall a collegue once told me his GT3RS rear tires only last about 10k, and he isn't tracking his car. I believe he had Michelin Pilot sport cup 2's.

Princess_Allez

high-performance tires will last <10k street driven miles