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Dirt Between Crank and Frame

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Dirt Between Crank and Frame

Old 08-07-20, 10:31 PM
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danallen
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Dirt Between Crank and Frame

BACKGROUND
My ride is a 2009 Trek Madone 5.2, purchased on ebay 18 months ago. I have put about 2,800 miles on it, of which about 300 has been in rain. There is friction in the crank. Sometimes a squeak comes from the same area. I suspect dirt between the crank and the frame as the source of friction and rust on the spline as the source of the squeak. There is no play in the crank side to side. Pulling the left crank arm from the axle exposed caked dirt, composed of very fine clay particles (pictures below). The BB is a press fit bb90. The bearings seem totally ok, but to get a better feel for them, I think the axle is going to need to come out, so I can turn them with my fingers to make sure they are smooth. The axle is attached to the right crank, I don't think the axle can be separated from the right crank.

QUESTIONS:
What is your assessment of what I have described?

Is there a way to pull the axle out of the bike without disturbing the bearings?

What is that spot in the crank (marked on the 3rd picture, below?



This bike is the best thing that ever happened to me. Last time I had bike before this was 40 years ago, in college. I cannot believe how fast this bike goes, even with me on it.



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Old 08-07-20, 10:35 PM
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I think your bearings might be worn out. Press fit BB90 bearings don’t like rain.
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Old 08-08-20, 07:06 AM
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What is the make and model of the crank? Shimano Hollowtec II cranks can easily be pushed out. Others may be different
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Old 08-08-20, 09:27 AM
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Originally Posted by danallen View Post
BACKGROUND

Is there a way to pull the axle out of the bike without disturbing the bearings?
Yes. Just use the non drive side crank arm end to give it a little knock and then pull it out by the drive side. Takes two seconds.

Bearings may pop out if loose, but probably won't.
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Old 08-08-20, 09:28 AM
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Originally Posted by alcjphil View Post
What is the make and model of the crank? Shimano Hollowtec II cranks can easily be pushed out. Others may be different
Probably Ultegra 6700. Yes, easily pushed out.
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Old 08-08-20, 01:21 PM
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Rode hard and put away wet. If you are responsible you should step up your maintenance. If you bought it that way, best of luck....
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Old 08-09-20, 01:15 AM
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Originally Posted by rubiksoval View Post
Probably Ultegra 6700. Yes, easily pushed out.
Originally Posted by alcjphil View Post
What is the make and model of the crank? Shimano Hollowtec II cranks can easily be pushed out. Others may be different
Originally Posted by colnago62 View Post
I think your bearings might be worn out. Press fit BB90 bearings don’t like rain.
Yes, the crank is Ultegra 6700. The BB is BB90.

Yes, the bearing needs replacement. There are two ways I could determine the bearing is beat. First, the redish disk, visible in the picture showing the crank axle, when removed, provides a view of the bearing. I can see the bearings are dry. Second, turning the axle with the left side crank arm removed, I can feel some crunch in the bearings.

I am going to buy new bearings and get the tools necessary for removing the old ones, installing the new ones. I figure the tools pay for themselves because I won't have to pay a shop to do the work.

Regarding rain.... do people make a habit of not riding in rain?

I would assume rain can happen even if you try avoiding it. If the bike is ridden in the rain, what is the maintenance required to avoid wrecking bearings.

Once the bottom bracket is fixed, I guess I better take a better look at the head set.
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Old 08-09-20, 01:21 AM
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Originally Posted by shelbyfv View Post
Rode hard and put away wet. If you are responsible you should step up your maintenance. If you bought it that way, best of luck....
I cannot say what the condition of the BB bearings were when I got the bike. The previous owner had it serviced and shipped from a bike shop where she lived. I took it to a shop near me and they did a service to make sure everything was safe. They must have given the crank a spin. All things considered, it is now clear to me that I have neglected the BB, so now they need service.

BB bearings seem pretty expensive. $150 - $200. I am thinking that expense is not necessary or justified. I'll be looking around to see what I can find. Found a set from enduro for $23.



Last edited by danallen; 08-09-20 at 01:37 AM.
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Old 08-09-20, 04:12 AM
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Get that left shifter sorted out too.
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Old 08-09-20, 04:44 AM
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Those Pressfit bearings are simply awful. Whereas I've got over 30k on my BB30 outboard to 24mm wheels manufacturing bottom bracket, and have another BSA bbs with 20-25,000k on it still going strong, I don't think I got over 5k with the pressfit bearing on a Trek.

It's just an awful design all the way around and bike manufacturers have given up on it.
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Old 08-09-20, 05:43 AM
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Originally Posted by znomit View Post
Get that left shifter sorted out too.
Would you please clarify?
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Old 08-09-20, 05:52 AM
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Originally Posted by rubiksoval View Post
Those Pressfit bearings are simply awful. Whereas I've got over 30k on my BB30 outboard to 24mm wheels manufacturing bottom bracket, and have another BSA bbs with 20-25,000k on it still going strong, I don't think I got over 5k with the pressfit bearing on a Trek.

It's just an awful design all the way around and bike manufacturers have given up on it.
A week ago, I had no idea of this issue. I have seen a lot of mentions of BB90 having problems, but all the references I have seen until now have not been specific. It helps a lot that you explained the specific problem about lifespan. I also have seen mentioned they are prone to creaking.

1. Is there a way to extend the life of this type of BB? Frequent maintenance, especially after rain?

2. Is there anything especially good about this type of BB?

3. Is there a practical way to convert to another type of BB?
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Old 08-09-20, 05:59 AM
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I guess it is not a big deal, but I cannot figure out what this spot of metal is all about on the crank arm. Any ideas?

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Old 08-09-20, 06:01 AM
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I have press fit BB90 and you will need a rubber mallot and a tool like a BB knock out sleeve as I call it. They will run you about $20 off brand. But you have to be careful using it and best to watch a YT video on it. Those bearings I would replace. You will need a press fit tool also.....varying price on those as well. Some around $40 to higher near $80 plus.

Here is what I would do, if you have no inclination to ever start wrenching, take it to a LBS to do this job. If you want to be self-sufficient then start investing in tools as you need them.

But that crank arm and BB definitely need cleaning and the BB needs replacing I suspect. I replaced mine with Kogel ceramic bearings but I don’t see any appreciable effect over stainless ball bearings to be honest. So save a lot of cash and go back to steel.
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Old 08-09-20, 06:10 AM
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Oh, if you do it yourself get some denatured alcohol and put on a rag and clean up the inside of the BB cavity and the crank arms and the threads real good then let air dry. You will also need some lithium grease for reapplying to the crank arm spindle and around the BB bearing internal diameter when you reinsert the crank set.

You would also do to have a newton meter ratchet specific for torquing back the system too. I am an obsessive compulsive when it comes to my bikes and applying torque, especially on carbon frames and components!

The problem is, if you don’t have the tools that are proper, don’t hammer fist or gorilla fist as I say these things. Oh some do and say your okay but me I never do a job without borrowing or investing in the right tools. I got that from my dad honest.

Bike specific tools can be costly sometimes but if you don’t need the “blue” ones and aren’t pretentious on that, there are some great off name that are just as good.
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Old 08-09-20, 07:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Germanrazor View Post
if you have no inclination to ever start wrenching,
I want to apologize for creating the impression that I might consider having work done by a shop instead of doing it myself. The only exception I can think of for that would be fixing a crack in the carbon fiber frame, should that happen in a way that can be fixed.

.

Apart from the checkup provided by a local shop when I bought the bike used on Ebay, I do all the work on my bike. I rely on Youtube for seeing how to do things. bikeforums.net has been fantastic at helping me understand what needs to be done. So far, I have watched about ten videos demonstrating how to remove and install press fit bottom brackets.. I am still confused about the cups used for holding bearing cartridges in pressfit bottom brackets. My perception is the BB on my bike does not use cups for holding the bearing cartridges. I actually thought pressfit BBs never use bearing cups, but some of the videos I have watched on press fit BBs include the use of cups. Overall, I think I have a rough idea of how the BB goes together and the tools needed.


There is no question, people with more expertise, experience, knowledge, and skill are massively more qualified to work on my bike than I am. One of the risks I run working on my bike is the possibility of ruining the bike, or damaging it in a way that leads to catastrophic failure, potentially causing serious injury, property damage, or death. Another risk is like what has happened here, attention has been needed without me knowing.


One of the things I love about my bike is it has so many cats to skin. Each cat has many ways to be skinned. I hope nothing goes dangerously wrong

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Old 08-09-20, 07:20 AM
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Some people just like riding and nothing else.....nothing wrong with that. I, like some, find wrenching a outlet and satisfaction of being able to not rely on shop backlogs for bike maintenance and just do it ourselves.

Glad you are a do-it-yourselfer. I think those who learn to wrench are a invaluable resource in their communities because we all know loading a bike up and taking to a LBS is not always ideal.
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Old 08-09-20, 07:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Germanrazor View Post
Oh, if you do it yourself get some denatured alcohol and put on a rag and clean up the inside of the BB cavity and the crank arms and the threads real good then let air dry. You will also need some lithium grease for reapplying to the crank arm spindle and around the BB bearing internal diameter when you reinsert the crank set.

You would also do to have a newton meter ratchet specific for torquing back the system too. I am an obsessive compulsive when it comes to my bikes and applying torque, especially on carbon frames and components!

The problem is, if you don’t have the tools that are proper, don’t hammer fist or gorilla fist as I say these things. Oh some do and say your okay but me I never do a job without borrowing or investing in the right tools. I got that from my dad honest.

Bike specific tools can be costly sometimes but if you don’t need the “blue” ones and aren’t pretentious on that, there are some great off name that are just as good.
This post of yours is good enough to print out, put into a frame, and hang it in my workshop.

I have a set of torque wrenches and always make sure all torques are done to spec. I understand a bearing press is essential for installing the bearings in the BB, and a special tool is required for removing them. Attempting this work without those tools risks damage to the frame that might not be reparable.

How many miles/km are you able to get from a set of bearings in this type of BB? I am just learning now, every time the bike is run through rain, I am going to have to pull the crank apart to get a look at the BB bearings. They might not need service every time, but I am going to have to inspect them every time, until I get a better idea how they hold together in rain.

I think it is similar to the experience I had learning to take care of the chain. At first, I was not lubing the chain often enough. Then I found out I was not cleaning it enough. Now, I use a mixture of paraffin and teflon powder to lube the chain, so it always is clean and very well-lubed. This type of lube provides a chain life of 8,000-10,000 miles and three times that for the cassette and chain ring. Before that, I went through a learning process on the cables and breaks. Ditto for tires. I would hope that now that I am getting better acquainted with the proper maintenance of the BB, I hopefully will start knowing what to do and how often to do whatever it needs to be kept in great condition.

I had a road bike in college, 1979-1983. I did an overhaul of that bike a few months after I got it for $20 from a graduating student. After that overhaul, I did nothing but ride it and lock it until I graduated.
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Old 08-09-20, 07:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Germanrazor View Post
Some people just like riding and nothing else.....nothing wrong with that. I, like some, find wrenching a outlet and satisfaction of being able to not rely on shop backlogs for bike maintenance and just do it ourselves.


Glad you are a do-it-yourselfer. I think those who learn to wrench are a invaluable resource in their communities because we all know loading a bike up and taking to a LBS is not always ideal.

I like working on the bike to know how it works. I like knowing it works because I made sure it works. I like having my life in my hands that way. I would not mind if the bike needed less frequent maintenance, never got a flat, never have to replace tires once I find the ones I like best, never have to adjust or replace brake pads, never have to lube the shifters, change the batteries in the headlight, or replace bearings.


The reason I do the work is to be intimate with the bike. That quote by Hemmingway is so true


It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and can coast down them.... Thus you remember them as they actually are, while in a motorcar only a high hill impresses you, and you have no such accurate remembrance of country you have driven through as you gain by riding a bicycle.


To me, taking care of a bicycle and riding the bicycle are spiritual experiences.


After not riding a bike for 40 years, I cannot tell you how amazed I am with road bicycles today. I discovered this by taking my son's Trek 2200 for a spin around the block. I could not believe the tremendous acceleration and the speed the bike would reach. It was at that moment I knew I had to get a bike. I has changed my life, making me much more healthy and engaged in every way.


Now that I have a bike, I cannot believe the miles I travel on it. When I see that tires can last 2,000 - 4,000 miles, I figured that meant for the rest of my life. I know my mileage is low compared to a lot of people, but to me, it is unbelievable I have put 1,900 miles on the bike this year. I would not believe it if I did not record the miles myself.
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Old 08-09-20, 07:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Germanrazor View Post
being able to not rely on shop backlogs for bike maintenance and just do it ourselves.
YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS

Knowing that no matter what needs to be done, I can just do it... unless the frame is smashed.
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Old 08-09-20, 07:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Germanrazor View Post
I have press fit BB90 and you will need a rubber mallot and a tool like a BB knock out sleeve as I call it. They will run you about $20 off brand. But you have to be careful using it and best to watch a YT video on it. Those bearings I would replace. You will need a press fit tool also.....varying price on those as well. Some around $40 to higher near $80 plus..

You don't don't need those tools at all. Put the end of an 8mm allen wrench in from the other side and pop it with something and the bearing will come out.

You can use a book or a board or something else flat and hard to put it back in. Or if that doesn't do it for you, it's pretty simple to make a DIY bearing press with an axle and nuts for 15-20 bucks.

Especially on Treks, the carbon starts wearing away after a few years and you can sometimes just pop in them in by hand (the reason why BB90 is the hands-down worst system going).
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Old 08-09-20, 07:52 AM
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@Germanrazor,

Soooooooooo, back to topic, this bearing set looks like what I need? Is this a good price?


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Old 08-09-20, 07:56 AM
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Originally Posted by danallen View Post
A week ago, I had no idea of this issue. I have seen a lot of mentions of BB90 having problems, but all the references I have seen until now have not been specific. It helps a lot that you explained the specific problem about lifespan. I also have seen mentioned they are prone to creaking.

1. Is there a way to extend the life of this type of BB? Frequent maintenance, especially after rain?

2. Is there anything especially good about this type of BB?

3. Is there a practical way to convert to another type of BB?
I don't know. I just got a new bike.

No?

BB90s are essentially proprietary, so not really.

I think it's best to just accept the proactive maintenance aspect and replace every 3-5k miles as needed.
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Old 08-09-20, 08:06 AM
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Originally Posted by rubiksoval View Post
You don't don't need those tools at all. Put the end of an 8mm allen wrench in from the other side and pop it with something and the bearing will come out.

You can use a book or a board or something else flat and hard to put it back in. Or if that doesn't do it for you, it's pretty simple to make a DIY bearing press with an axle and nuts for 15-20 bucks.

Especially on Treks, the carbon starts wearing away after a few years and you can sometimes just pop in them in by hand (the reason why BB90 is the hands-down worst system going).
Well, I wasn't ready to risk ridicule, but these two pictures show what I have in mind for the special tools needed for the BB rebuild. The removal tool is slightly risky if used wrong, but the press looks to me like it will work as well as any.








Originally Posted by rubiksoval View Post
Especially on Treks, the carbon starts wearing away after a few years and you can sometimes just pop in them in by hand (the reason why BB90 is the hands-down worst system going).
I have heard about this and it sounds terrible. When the fit starts getting loose, I think certain formulations of locktite can compensate. But if these bearings need replacement every 1-3 years, and the fit gets looser and looser, seems to me this becomes fatal for the frame.

Does the loosening happen just from riding, for from repeated removal/reinstallation?

Is there a way to convert to another type BB?
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Old 08-09-20, 08:23 AM
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Originally Posted by danallen View Post
Well, I wasn't ready to risk ridicule, but these two pictures show what I have in mind for the special tools needed for the BB rebuild. The removal tool is slightly risky if used wrong, but the press looks to me like it will work as well as any.




I have heard about this and it sounds terrible. When the fit starts getting loose, I think certain formulations of locktite can compensate. But if these bearings need replacement every 1-3 years, and the fit gets looser and looser, seems to me this becomes fatal for the frame.

Does the loosening happen just from riding, for from repeated removal/reinstallation?

Is there a way to convert to another type BB?
That's sort of what my bearing press looks like, but I don't have any of the plastic bits.

Not really any risk to removing. You're not using the bearings anymore. I wouldn't use something pointy like a screwdriver in case it slips and hits your frame, but an 8-10 mm allen wrench or something like that piece of wood works quickly and efficiently.

I don't know. I could pop my bearings in and out by hand after 6-7 months, but I'm sure it's different for everyone. Trek made special bearings that are slightly larger to compensate for that if the loctite doesn't work anymore. A Trek dealer could sort you out if it came to that. I wouldn't worry about it for the time being, though.
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