Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Road Cycling
Reload this Page >

A cyclist died in NY without helmet

Road Cycling “It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them. Thus you remember them as they actually are, while in a motor car only a high hill impresses you, and you have no such accurate remembrance of country you have driven through as you gain by riding a bicycle.” -- Ernest Hemingway

A cyclist died in NY without helmet

Reply

Old 07-12-05, 11:14 AM
  #26  
Beez
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Dallas, Texas
Posts: 14
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I had a similar accident on one of the paths that I ride on. Took a header into a very large square fence post(see my post in the Introductions forum for details). Although I was wearing a helmet, the impact knocked me silly; I shudder to think what would've happened had I not been protected.

The funny thing is that was the first time I had worn a helmet while riding that trail. So much for "safety in bike paths"...
Beez is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-05, 11:21 AM
  #27  
daver42
Senior Member
 
daver42's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 252
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Originally Posted by TexasGuy
Umm because some of us are lucky? ...
Wow, I'd say damn lucky.
daver42 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-05, 12:43 PM
  #28  
mikdes
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Oregon
Posts: 270

Bikes: 2003 Jamis Nova - commuter setup

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
We lost a bike messenger here in Portland a couple weeks ago. I couldn't get the link to work, so here are the details.

Bike Messenger Dies After Collision With Semi Truck

Crash Details Not Clear

PORTLAND -- A bicycle messenger was fatally wounded this week in a collision with a semi truck in downtown Portland.

Police say 24-year-old Kristine Okins was in the bike lane on Southwest Broadway Monday morning when the wreck occurred.

Witnesses told police that the truck and bicycle were stopped at the light at Washington Street. As the light turned green, both continued southbound, and the bike sped ahead. About 150 feet past the intersection, a witness saw Okins and her bike under the wheel of the truck. The truck had not turned its wheels or changed lanes.

Coworkers told KOIN News 6 that Okins was conscious after the crash and called them to report the incident. She was taken to Oregon Health and Science University, where her condition worsened. She died Tuesday before investigators could speak with her.

Anyone with information was asked to call the Portland Police Bureau at (503) 823-2103.

No charges were initially filed against the truck driver. Police say he was not impaired.

Okins' coworkers described her as an outgoing and determined woman.

A fund was established to help the family with funeral expenses. Donations can be made to the Kristine Okins Memorial Fund at U.S. Bank branches.

This just happened today. Talk about lucky!

Last edited by mikdes; 07-12-05 at 12:51 PM.
mikdes is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-05, 01:09 PM
  #29  
dahvaio
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Southern California
Posts: 498

Bikes: Trek Madone 5.9 SL

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Originally Posted by Nam
God bless him, I feel so bad for him. I used to wear helmet all the time but stop wearing 2 weeks recently, but after seeing this accident, I better start to put it on again. So to all you guys out there, please wear the helmet, you will never know what will happen. I've ridden that Shore road a thousand times, it's dedicated bike and walking lane, so it's 100% safe more than any road out there, you just never know, so be careful.
It sucks he died but it is his own freakin fault. Helmets should always be worn because of the idiotic drivers and other random events. Of course there are things that can happen that no matter what you do, it cannot be prevented. However, wearing a helmet is something that is controlled by the rider and forgoing it is just plain unreasonable.
dahvaio is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-05, 01:30 PM
  #30  
DesertRoller
Senior Member
 
DesertRoller's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Glendale, Arizona
Posts: 195

Bikes: 05 Specialized Roubaix

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I had a scare this past weekend. I went out for about a 30-35 mile ride & stopped at my usual spot on this particular route. I rested the bike against a pole, and went to take my helmet off. It wasn't there! I had gone 15 miles not realizing I hadn't put it on. I had a skull cap on & that may have had something to do with it - I felt something up there so I figured I was ready to go. On the way back, a stoplight at the bottom of a small hill kept me from hitting the 30 mph I often do there. Needless to say, I was praying most of the way home. Hope I never do that again!
DesertRoller is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-05, 01:32 PM
  #31  
Dahon.Steve
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 7,099
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 227 Post(s)
Originally Posted by Nam
I was in Shore road, Bay Ridge in Brooklyn, NY about an hour ago and saw a dead cyclist on the road. I wasn't there when it happened but I overheard the eyewitness told the police that he was trying to pass a little kid who was going left and right, he confused and hit the fence that seperate the highway and the Shore road, his head smashed right into the fence, blood was coming out the whole lane.
I can relate happend to this person. I got lucky not too long ago and was in a similar situation this winter while riding without a helmet. A couple of kids where in the street tossing a football when one of them ran into me while trying to catch the bill. I hit the ground hard since it was my first day wearing clips! The pain was incredible but I was lucky there were no parked car next to me or my head would have hit it for sure.

I think what could have saved this rider is a bell. Seriously. On my group ride, the leader is CONSTANTLY ringing that bell to ward off stray riders and warn others that we are coming! It works very well and I keep forgeting to buy one because they look strange but after reading this post, my helmet will forever stay on. I'm buying 3 bells for my bikes after work this evening. I don't care how bad it looks. Calling "On Your Left" often times makes the situation even worse. Please folks. Get the bell.
Dahon.Steve is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-05, 01:41 PM
  #32  
alanbikehouston
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 5,250
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I almost ALWAYS wear a helmet. But, yesterday, I needed to ride just six blocks to the bus stop, and I did not want to leave a helmet strapped to the bike at that particular corner (a hang-out for kids, who would mess with a helmet just to mess with it).

So, I slow down at an intersection to turn left. I'm in the center of a two lane road. Just as I begin to turn left, a guy on a bike passes me, ON MY LEFT. He was riding on the wrong side of the road. He was coming from behind me, so he could see EXACTLY where I was, and exactly what I was doing. He missed hitting me by a foot, speeding by at about 20 mph.

I'm guessing his thoughts were: "I'm going 20 mph, so I will ride around this slow poke and not have to slow down, or move to the right". And, "deep thinking" like that gets people killed.

So, now, I'm going to use my helmet, even to ride six blocks. Between my own mistakes, and the mistakes made by the endless supply of idiots riding bikes in my neighborhood, I'm gonna need it.
alanbikehouston is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-05, 01:48 PM
  #33  
Dahon.Steve
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 7,099
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 227 Post(s)
Originally Posted by Nam
But oh boy, after what I was seeing, I stopped continue my normal routine, I went home after that. I can't believe somebody die on the road that consider the safest of all (absolute no cars). And
There's a part of that bike route where the ground has multiple bumps caused by some obstruction from underneath the road. It's so abrupt that I nearly lost control and quite a few cyclists are aware of the situation. It's not as safe as some people think.
Dahon.Steve is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-05, 07:35 PM
  #34  
Laggard
Lance Hater
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 4,403
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
$10 says someone hauls out the "helmet nazi" label soon.
Laggard is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-05, 07:45 PM
  #35  
Nam
Stinky Mouse
Thread Starter
 
Nam's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: NY
Posts: 128

Bikes: Giant OCR3

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Originally Posted by mrballistic
perhaps this is the backstory?

http://www.boingboing.net/2005/07/12..._keith_al.html

otherwise, there were 2 people in nyc that died of bike-related injuries last weekend, which is something that i don't want to think about.
I couldn't see his face because his face was down, but the head and hair style looked pretty similar. Couldn't see his back either since he was wearing a shirt.

I'm not against the idea of "always wearing helmet", but for those who don't know, the lane is dedicated bike lane and seperated from the highway, so even if a car want to kill you, it can't. I'd say this is the most unfortunate death because it's almost impossible to die in such a safe enviroment like that. There were about 30 bikers standing there watching, and I counted about 5 of them having a helmet.

And reading beez's post above, his head was smahing into "large square fence post".
Nam is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-05, 07:46 PM
  #36  
AroW
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: NY/MD
Posts: 151
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Its like smoking

A lot of people do it even though they would be better off without it, but its their choice. The world would be bland if everybody was the same /
AroW is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-05, 07:53 PM
  #37  
slvoid
2-Cyl, 1/2 HP @ 90 RPM
 
slvoid's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: NYC
Posts: 15,762

Bikes: 04' Specialized Hardrock Sport, 03' Giant OCR2 (SOLD!), 04' Litespeed Firenze, 04' Giant OCR Touring, 07' Specialized Langster Comp

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Originally Posted by mikdes
This just happened today. Talk about lucky!
"Witnesses say that the cyclist was wearing headphones at the time of the incident. They also say that the impact knocked the man unconscious but he was awake when emergency personnel arrived."

I dunno... unless you're wearing in ear monitors or had the volume up to max, I doubt you can miss the fact that a TRAIN was heading for you. Man, people are just plain stupid sometimes.
slvoid is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-05, 08:10 PM
  #38  
Metieval
Senior Member
 
Metieval's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 1,527

Bikes: Road bike, Hybrid, Gravel, Drop bar SS, hard tail MTB

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 494 Post(s)
sometimes it is just your time to go.....

Everyman has an appointed time to be born, and appointed time to die. It is sad to see someone die or to hear about it, but it happens daily.

I honestly think and believe that seatbelts, airbags, and helmets hurt more people than they save!!!

the reasons, people lower their guard while feeling safe and then they do stupid things.


How many car accidents could and WOULD be avoided if the driver knew there was a spike in the steering wheel that would pierce their heart if they crashed? How many bike accidents could be avoided if people knew they was going to get decapitated if they crash? Yes, I am aware that some accidents will still happen and can't be avoided, but I am talking about the ones that can.

Anyways my reason for a helmet is I am bald and a road rash scar on my head would look like crap. LOL

The road rash on my shoulder is bad enough!!! and yes even it could have been avoided. I had a bet going to how fast I could ride around the block. I took off and did the state route direction first. I sprinted for a bit and then backed off a bit. Call it bad timing but I had planned to make my first left turn in a very large sweep. But a car had came up behind me, I thought I would be nice and take the yellow line and let the car pass me on the right......... sharper corner!! steeper I laid the bike down, WHAM pedal hits the ground rear tire comes up and Im flat faster than Chit!! hands never had time to let go of bike so they was smashed between handlebars-pavement and my shoulder was the first to hit.

Bets are stupid, racing on the roads that isn't marked for a race is stupid, being nice to a car (ummm nice but wasn't necessary) being distracted because of a car... good BUT I learned my lesson that I am not multi tasked thinker. anyways the accident could have been avoided
Metieval is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-05, 08:17 PM
  #39  
thewalrus
CAT6 UTP 568B
 
thewalrus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Bellingham / Vancouver
Posts: 2,549

Bikes: 2005 Allez Elite

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Originally Posted by TexasGuy
I personally have ridden all my life - 14k miles in 2 1/2 years and never had an accident without wearing a helmet. Do i wear a helmet now? Yes because I now ride a road bike and now go 20-25 miles per hour. I used to do 40 mph down a hill on a mOngoose without any fear of wearing a helmet.
In september of last year, I had a crash at about 30km/h, wearing a helmet, where I landed on my chin and slid. 8 nasty stitches, a bad concussion and a big scar later, I'm glad I was wearing a helmet. In this particular crash my head's initial point of contact with the road was my chin, but if I'd landed differently and without a helmet, it could have been a MUCH more serious crash.

There is a guy who rides around in downtown vancouver rush hour traffic with no helmet AND listening to an ipod. I've seen him doing it more than a few times.
thewalrus is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-05, 08:30 PM
  #40  
STEVO820
i am eddy.
 
STEVO820's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: SUB_CHI-TOWN
Posts: 517

Bikes: TREK 1000, Lemond Sarthe, Formaggio T.I.

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
i never EVER pass a kid at fast speeds. i had so many close calls with kids that i just give up. i love the fact that parents spend time with their kids outside of the house learning how to ride. but when they are barley keeping it on the road that is not good at all. the first thing i say to anyone about the trails is "when you see kids hit the brake" it sucks because you lose all your momentum but you know right when they are next to you they are going to dip to far over and clip you.

i admit i dont wear my helmet but i also ride very cautiously now and i anticipate a lot of things. if you ride a motorcycle you get the same way. you watch everything that is going on around you the weather, people, cars, roads. sorry to hear it and hopefully he is in a better place.
STEVO820 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-05, 08:48 PM
  #41  
sounddevisor
Senior Member
 
sounddevisor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 167

Bikes: Trek 5200

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
The story about the dead cyclist in Brookyln really freaked me out, because I just met him about two weeks ago, riding on the bike path by Shore Road where he was killed. We met because we were passing some pedestrians at the same time, and I said something to him about what a pain it is when people on the bike path don't pay attention. We ended up riding together for a few miles and chatting, and I remember saying to him that the thing that scares me the most is the little kids who dart around totally unpredictably.

I also remember thinking to myself that he ought to be wearing a helmet, which he wasn't. I don't like to get in other people's business about stuff like that usually, but now I really wish I had! Who knows if it would have changed anything, but maybe it would have made him think for a second about putting one on.

I have been in several accidents over 25 years of riding, including one which I definitely would not have survived if I hadn't been wearing a helmet. Please, people, always wear a helmet when you are on your bike. Accidents can happen at ANY speed, and as this story shows motor vehicles don't have to be involved for things to become fatal. Modern helmets are light and comfortable, please don't make the mistake of valuing some small degree of comfort over your life. I am going to this guy's wake on Thursday, and I would hate to have to do the same for someone else I might meet out on the roads.

stay safe,
-sounddevisor
sounddevisor is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-05, 11:43 PM
  #42  
mikdes
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Oregon
Posts: 270

Bikes: 2003 Jamis Nova - commuter setup

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Originally Posted by slvoid
"Witnesses say that the cyclist was wearing headphones at the time of the incident. They also say that the impact knocked the man unconscious but he was awake when emergency personnel arrived."

I dunno... unless you're wearing in ear monitors or had the volume up to max, I doubt you can miss the fact that a TRAIN was heading for you. Man, people are just plain stupid sometimes.
A few people in Portland have been hit by our "MAX" trains because they couldn't hear them. Uhh... plus they weren't paying attention. Some have made it and some, infortunately, have not.

I used to take MAX to work daily. It's more of a light rail system. They're really pretty quiet and I can see how if someone's mind was elsewhere that they could fail to hear the train. That doesn't excuse anything, but they are quieter than one might think.
mikdes is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-05, 12:07 AM
  #43  
Crayon
Resident madman
 
Crayon's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 213
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Terrible loss, god bless his soul, may he rest in peace.

Everyone probably already knows this, but just in case...
Bike helmets are only designed for low speed impact during minor accidents. They will not protect you at higher speeds or impacts with motor vehicles. A bike helmet only provides a minor degree of protection, never assume that it will protect you in all situations.

Wearing a helmet is a personal decision and I believe it should remain so. I choose to wear one and thank God I've never actually needed it.
Crayon is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-05, 01:53 AM
  #44  
PriO
dotdotdot
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Posts: 465

Bikes: Cannondale R600

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Hey Nam and Slvoid, its been awhile

I usually dont bother to go past the bridge when im at Shore road because the lanes after it are way too narrow to manuver around people.
PriO is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-05, 04:40 AM
  #45  
phinney
Senior Member
 
phinney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: West Michigan
Posts: 748

Bikes: Schwinn Rocket 88, Schwinn Fastback, Cannondale Road Tandem, GT Timberline rigid steel mtb

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I really wish the people that think it's stupid to ride without a bicycle helmet would either stop riding or get real helmets. Bicycle helmets offer only a very limited amount of protection. Cyclists that actually expect to crash, like BMX stunt riders, don't wear bicycle helmets because bicycle helmets are inadequate even in the low speed crashes they experience.

Please stop kidding yourselves about the safety provided by a typical cycling helmet. And especially stop preaching about how safe you are and how stupid everyone else is.

I fully support anyone that wears a bike helmet. It's a great idea. There is probably an impact level were even a bicycle helmet will do some good. However, there are much safer helmets available. You've picked your level of protection and have to deal with the consequences. Please let the rest of us do the same.
phinney is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-05, 06:27 AM
  #46  
tribe3
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Vienna, VA - USA
Posts: 412
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Originally Posted by phinney
I really wish the people that think it's stupid to ride without a bicycle helmet would either stop riding or get real helmets. Bicycle helmets offer only a very limited amount of protection. Cyclists that actually expect to crash, like BMX stunt riders, don't wear bicycle helmets because bicycle helmets are inadequate even in the low speed crashes they experience.

Please stop kidding yourselves about the safety provided by a typical cycling helmet. And especially stop preaching about how safe you are and how stupid everyone else is.

I fully support anyone that wears a bike helmet. It's a great idea. There is probably an impact level were even a bicycle helmet will do some good. However, there are much safer helmets available. You've picked your level of protection and have to deal with the consequences. Please let the rest of us do the same.
At last some sanity in this thread
tribe3 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-05, 06:31 AM
  #47  
TexasGuy
That darn Yankee
 
TexasGuy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: West West Fort Worth
Posts: 4,286

Bikes: Mongoose XR-100, Eros Bianchi

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Originally Posted by Dahon.Steve
I can relate happend to this person. I got lucky not too long ago and was in a similar situation this winter while riding without a helmet. A couple of kids where in the street tossing a football when one of them ran into me while trying to catch the bill. I hit the ground hard since it was my first day wearing clips! The pain was incredible but I was lucky there were no parked car next to me or my head would have hit it for sure.

I think what could have saved this rider is a bell. Seriously. On my group ride, the leader is CONSTANTLY ringing that bell to ward off stray riders and warn others that we are coming! It works very well and I keep forgeting to buy one because they look strange but after reading this post, my helmet will forever stay on. I'm buying 3 bells for my bikes after work this evening. I don't care how bad it looks. Calling "On Your Left" often times makes the situation even worse. Please folks. Get the bell.

This is one of those situations where the person is talking on the cell phone through the intersection. If you see kids running or playing on the the street, you need to literally slow down and make sure that they are aware of you. If not or you do not wish to then you need to unclip and come to a stop.

Sometimes its necessary for people to use their head instead of relying on a piece of metal to protect it.
TexasGuy is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-05, 06:32 AM
  #48  
TexasGuy
That darn Yankee
 
TexasGuy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: West West Fort Worth
Posts: 4,286

Bikes: Mongoose XR-100, Eros Bianchi

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Originally Posted by mikdes
A few people in Portland have been hit by our "MAX" trains because they couldn't hear them. Uhh... plus they weren't paying attention. Some have made it and some, infortunately, have not.

I used to take MAX to work daily. It's more of a light rail system. They're really pretty quiet and I can see how if someone's mind was elsewhere that they could fail to hear the train. That doesn't excuse anything, but they are quieter than one might think.

Again a case of people not using their head.
TexasGuy is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-05, 09:51 AM
  #49  
perbert
Geek of all trades
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Portlandia
Posts: 17

Bikes: 2005 Novara Randonee

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Originally Posted by mrballistic
perhaps this is the backstory?

http://www.boingboing.net/2005/07/12..._keith_al.html

otherwise, there were 2 people in nyc that died of bike-related injuries last weekend, which is something that i don't want to think about.

That would be the one. Below is another link from Keith's blog (he blogged A LOT). Kinda shows that this was the typical riding style for him. I'd known him since 1998, and it fit with his general approach to life. What a loss, he was a damn good guy...

http://www.nootrope.net/blog/2005/06/riding-season.html
perbert is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-05, 09:59 AM
  #50  
pgoat
Batüwü Griekgriek
 
pgoat's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: NYC - for the moment...
Posts: 2,908

Bikes: 1985 Trek 500, 1986 Trek 500 Tri Series, 2005 Cannondale R1000

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 22 Post(s)
Originally Posted by Sprocket Man
So true.
yes.

I used to wear my helmet only when mountain biking, never on the road (smart, huh?) out on Long Island. More recently I wore it when commuting in rush hour Manhattan traffic, but not when cruising round the hood (Queens).

After all the recent accidents (Including a thankfully minor one I had - which involved my helmeted head scraping the street), I wear mine ALL THE TIME.

Some quick rides to the store, bank, etc I am tempted to skip it but I make the effort and wear the lid. I'd like to save what I can just in case. You can crash just as easily in one place or situation as the next.
pgoat is offline  
Reply With Quote

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service