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Training for sustained climbs?

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Road Cycling “It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them. Thus you remember them as they actually are, while in a motor car only a high hill impresses you, and you have no such accurate remembrance of country you have driven through as you gain by riding a bicycle.” -- Ernest Hemingway

Training for sustained climbs?

Old 08-25-20, 12:44 AM
  #51  
Seattle Forrest
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Originally Posted by genejockey View Post
Thank goodness I have actually climbs to climb, instead of having to pretend on the flat. No descent as a reward for half an hour or more of effort? Bleah.
Not very often, but there have been times I wished I could ride up and meet somebody with a cat to go back down. Most of the time that's crazy talk though.
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Old 08-25-20, 04:22 AM
  #52  
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Originally Posted by asgelle View Post
An experiment for the reader (may be gedanken); ride up a moderate grade, 5-6%, in a comfortable gear. Stop pedaling, coast, and note how you slow down. Now repeat riding the same speed on a level road. Was there a difference in how fast you slowed down? Now do this again on the hill and level road, but in a different gear, harder or easier, it doesn’t matter. Did changing gear affect how fast you slowed down?

Some of us are concerned with power output, and then there's you concerned with how quickly you slow down or how hard you can press on the pedals going downhill. What's that you said about fallacies?



Brakes must be a mind-bender.
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Old 08-25-20, 04:25 AM
  #53  
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Originally Posted by AlgarveCycling View Post

I ordered a power meter last night. Never used one before but finally decided the time has come since training with HR alone is not as accurate. Also curious about what my real numbers are!
Nice! I got my first powermeter in 2005, and I still learn ways to be more productive in training. It's 100% revolutionized my entire riding and racing.

At times to the detriment, as now I won't even ride without a powermeter!
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Old 08-25-20, 06:24 AM
  #54  
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Originally Posted by rubiksoval View Post
Some of us are concerned with power output, ...
Then you might want to familiarize yourself with quadrant analysis. It's not new. It was developed by Andy Coggan over a decade ago. https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=...AAAAAdAAAAABAK Then you can think about how different inertial loads will move preferred force or cadence along the isopower hyperbolas.
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Old 08-25-20, 06:46 AM
  #55  
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The challenges of training for hills on flats is where the power comes from, and how momentum affects power output.
The glutes are used for sustained climbing, and it can be difficult to engage them on the flats. Quads & hip flexors are used more on the flats.
The momentum you get on flat roads makes it difficult to simulate hills, on the hills you feel immediate resistance when you lose momentum, not so on the flats.
Around here there aren't many long climbs, but plenty of areas to do repeats, which is what I do, along with hilly rides on Zwift.
It's also harder to maintain a given wattage on the flats than it is on the hills.
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Old 08-25-20, 07:09 AM
  #56  
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Originally Posted by asgelle View Post
Then you might want to familiarize yourself with quadrant analysis. It's not new. It was developed by Andy Coggan over a decade ago. https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=...AAAAAdAAAAABAK Then you can think about how different inertial loads will move preferred force or cadence along the isopower hyperbolas.

All your multiple posts and obtuse comments and you still can't quite get your head around the fact that you put out power on the flats and you put out power on the climbs, and putting out power on either affords the ability to put out power on the other.

Bummer, huh? But just for you.
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Old 08-25-20, 07:13 AM
  #57  
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Originally Posted by rubiksoval View Post

All your multiple posts and obtuse comments and you still can't quite get your head around the fact that you put out power on the flats and you put out power on the climbs, and putting out power on either affords the ability to put out power on the other.
Just as you can't comprehend there are three principles of training: progressive overload, individuality, specificity; and continue to pretend the third doesn't matter.
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Old 08-25-20, 07:14 AM
  #58  
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Originally Posted by Dancing Skeleton View Post
The challenges of training for hills on flats is where the power comes from, and how momentum affects power output.
The glutes are used for sustained climbing, and it can be difficult to engage them on the flats. Quads & hip flexors are used more on the flats.
I doubt your position differences are so extreme that you're switching to entirely different muscle groups when the road points upwards, but even if you had a foot long saddle or something and that were the case, it's again something easily addressed by simply holding a position. I'm not using any different muscle groups when I climb versus when I ride on the flat, though I may hold my head/shoulders lower in the latter position.
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Old 08-25-20, 07:15 AM
  #59  
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Originally Posted by asgelle View Post
Just as you can't comprehend there are three principles of training: progressive overload, individuality, specificity; and continue to pretend the third doesn't matter.
So when you get to the point where you can't actually refute something, you just resort to making **** up, huh?

For some reason I thought you were more respectable than that, but hey, it's a day for learning I guess.
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Old 08-25-20, 07:33 AM
  #60  
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Originally Posted by rubiksoval View Post
I doubt your position differences are so extreme that you're switching to entirely different muscle groups when the road points upwards, but even if you had a foot long saddle or something and that were the case, it's again something easily addressed by simply holding a position. I'm not using any different muscle groups when I climb versus when I ride on the flat, though I may hold my head/shoulders lower in the latter position.
In my experience it makes a huge difference. I had a coach teach me how to isolate the glutes for sustained climbing, which takes a lot of practice.
Once I learned how to do this, my climbing improved quite a bit.
I also can hold a much higher wattage on the hills than I can on the flats, I've done hillclimb races holding a wattage for over an hour that I'd have zero chance of holding for the same amount of time on a flat course.
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Old 08-25-20, 07:42 AM
  #61  
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I'm a flatlander (Minnesota) - a few things that work well for me:
  • Long efforts on the trainer (I never coast on the trainer),
  • Long efforts on rail-trails - great with power meter, but without power meter, just keep the heart rate in Z3-Z4 - no coasting
  • Ride steep local climbs seated to train yourself for the body position while climbing
The one thing I know I'm missing is riding in thin air ... if you're going to high elevations, that'll come down to good cardio conditioning.

Here to point, the biggest climb I've found myself riding was back in March - 1,200 ft climb averaging 5% with kicks over 15% and mixed surfaces (gravel & paved). I had no issues climbing, and could have kept climbing if I had more time and more hill to climb. This climb started at sea level, so I didn't have to deal with thin air.

I have my sights set on climbing Mauna Kea (13,800 ft climb from sea level). Prior to that challenging, I'll drive to Estes Park to ride Old Fall River Road (5,000 ft climb summit at 12,000 ft) to train at altitude.
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Old 08-25-20, 07:42 AM
  #62  
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Originally Posted by Dancing Skeleton View Post
In my experience it makes a huge difference. I had a coach teach me how to isolate the glutes for sustained climbing, which takes a lot of practice.
Once I learned how to do this, my climbing improved quite a bit.
Just to go along with this for a second, if you found a way to engage a muscle group the equates to a significant performance advantage, why would you only use it on one type of terrain?
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Old 08-25-20, 07:45 AM
  #63  
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Originally Posted by Hypno Toad View Post
The one thing I know I'm missing is riding in thin air ... if you're going to high elevations, that'll come down to good cardio conditioning.


I have my sights set on climbing Mauna Kea (13,800 ft climb from sea level). Prior to that challenging, I'll drive to Estes Park to ride Old Fall River Road (5,000 ft climb summit at 12,000 ft) to train at altitude.

Response to altitude doesn't really have much to do with cardio conditioning. Even fit people can be reduced to sloth-like movements if they go high enough.

Riding up a mountain isn't "training at atltitude" and isn't going to really affect your performance at altitude. Spending significant time at altitude does help with acclimation, but then you're talking days/weeks.
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Old 08-25-20, 07:50 AM
  #64  
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Originally Posted by rubiksoval View Post
Response to altitude doesn't really have much to do with cardio conditioning. Even fit people can be reduced to sloth-like movements if they go high enough.

Riding up a mountain isn't "training at atltitude" and isn't going to really affect your performance at altitude. Spending significant time at altitude does help with acclimation, but then you're talking days/weeks.
IME - When I've been in the Rockies (Summit County), I've been quicker to acclimate with better cardio conditioning than without. For reference, I've been a competitive snowboarder and spent a good amount of time at altitude ... just not with bikes.
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Old 08-25-20, 08:06 AM
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Originally Posted by rubiksoval View Post
Just to go along with this for a second, if you found a way to engage a muscle group the equates to a significant performance advantage, why would you only use it on one type of terrain?
I have been able to use the the glutes on the flats, but only for sustained speed at a low cadence. It's really hard to use the glutes at 90 RPM, just as its really hard on the quads at 75 RPM.
It's also hard to have bursts of acceleration, which can be needed on the flats, with glutes, the quads are used for this.
I'm referring to sustained climbing.

I think that this also leads into what type of rider you are. I can climb much better than I can ride fast on flat ground.
There are people who I ride with, who can easily average 20-21 MPH on flattish ground for 50+ miles,which would be really difficult for me.
But they can't keep up with me on hills, especially sustained climbs of over 1/2 a mile.

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Old 08-25-20, 08:13 AM
  #66  
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Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest View Post
Not very often, but there have been times I wished I could ride up and meet somebody with a cat to go back down.
I find cats very difficult to hold on to when riding on flat ground - descending with one would be pretty damn sketchy, IMO.
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Old 08-25-20, 08:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Hypno Toad View Post
IME - When I've been in the Rockies (Summit County), I've been quicker to acclimate with better cardio conditioning than without. For reference, I've been a competitive snowboarder and spent a good amount of time at altitude ... just not with bikes.
This from the Institute for Altitude Medicine: "Physical fitness offers no protection from altitude illness. In fact, many young fit athletes drive themselves too hard at altitude prior to acclimatizing thinking they can push through the discomfort. They ignore signs of altitude illness thinking it can't affect them because they are fit and healthy. Everyone, regardless of fitness, is susceptible to AMS."
I think there is some genetic component involved, along with acclimation, of course. I've also read that a person living at low altitude traveling to high altitude for an event could be better off just going the day of instead of 2 or 3 days before because it takes more than 2 or 3 days to adjust.

I used to live at 6000 feet and I've been fine at 9000 doing mtb climbs even after I moved back to 1500 feet. Once in a while the altitude will get me, one time at 10,000 when I had climbed up from 3000 and that 10K mark just knocked me back. Another time it hit me at 8500 and I felt awful until I went back down. This was quite a surprise because it was the first time I got that sick below 10K.

Some friends hiked Mt Whitney and the fittest aerobic junkie there, the guy who outclimbs everyone on the bike, got so sick the others had to help him back down for a few thousand feet.

I guess what I'm trying to say is there are many possible factors and it can be unpredictable and I appreciate the input of others who like to get high.
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Old 08-25-20, 08:19 AM
  #68  
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Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
I find cats very difficult to hold on to when riding on flat ground - descending with one would be pretty damn sketchy, IMO.
You just need the right bag.
https://www.amazon.com/LEMKA-Carrier...8365109&sr=8-5
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Old 08-25-20, 08:25 AM
  #69  
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Originally Posted by big john View Post

I guess what I'm trying to say is there are many possible factors and it can be unpredictable and I appreciate the input of others who like to get high.
Good point, thanks!
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Old 08-25-20, 08:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest View Post
Not very often, but there have been times I wished I could ride up and meet somebody with a cat to go back down. Most of the time that's crazy talk though.
The climb I'm most likely to do locally is a crappy descent for the same reason it's a good climb - it's narrow and twisty and the surface isn't great, so there are very few cars. But a mile north, there's another road which is a crappy climb for all the reasons it's a great descent - wide, with more sweepers than hairpins - so that's the one the cars go up, making it a terrible climb. But on the way down, you're going about as fast as the cars, so you don't have to worry so much about getting passed.

So I go up one and down the other.
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Old 08-25-20, 09:35 AM
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Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
I find cats very difficult to hold on to when riding on flat ground - descending with one would be pretty damn sketchy, IMO.
I just stuff them in the front of my jersey -- it's better than the old newspaper trick.
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Old 08-25-20, 09:51 AM
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Originally Posted by rubiksoval View Post
Why? There's absolutely zero need, because it still takes power to go up a climb. And you can put out that power on the flats as well.

All you're doing is changing the resistance: wind versus gravity.
position the bike is a bit different, little core muscles get worked a bit different.

Also doing the actual climbing you learn things about your gearing your bike fit. How much to sit, how much to stand, what cadence works for you. There’s also a psychological and confidence aspect.

Sustained climbs are about mostly about power to weight ratio, and I agree with you that it doesn’t matter if that’s on a hill or the flats. However, I think there are some additional elements beyond power to weight that add into, and practice actually climbing helps,with those.

So you can do quite well climbing with only training on the flats. That doesn’t mean there is no advantage in doing some training, practice
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Old 08-25-20, 11:18 AM
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Originally Posted by merlinextraligh View Post
position the bike is a bit different, little core muscles get worked a bit different.

Also doing the actual climbing you learn things about your gearing your bike fit. How much to sit, how much to stand, what cadence works for you. There’s also a psychological and confidence aspect.

Sustained climbs are about mostly about power to weight ratio, and I agree with you that it doesn’t matter if that’s on a hill or the flats. However, I think there are some additional elements beyond power to weight that add into, and practice actually climbing helps,with those.

So you can do quite well climbing with only training on the flats. That doesn’t mean there is no advantage in doing some training, practice
I mean, if you have a mountain to climb up right out your back door, then go climb away. But it's really silly (and by silly, I mean ridiculous), to contend that you can't prepare for a mountain ride without riding up mountains. It's just wrong on every conceivable level.

You need power. That's what will get you up the mountain. Not skills, not practice, not riding it 14 days in a row. You can train that power on the flats, in the wind, on the trainer, on the rollers; however you need to do so.

If it takes me 300 watts to ride up a particular mountain in 25 minutes, I can prepare for that by going out and building up to riding 300 watts for 25 minutes.

And then? Then I'll ride up the mountain at 300 watts for 25 minutes.

This is about as simple a thing as it can be.

There's absolutely zero need for "practice". It's not a skills issue, it's a power issue (and maybe an equipment issue if you don't have the gearing necessary to maintain the cadence you prefer).

Now coming back down the mountain? That may require some practice if you're not a very good descender...
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Old 08-25-20, 12:12 PM
  #74  
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Originally Posted by rubiksoval View Post
Why? There's absolutely zero need, because it still takes power to go up a climb. And you can put out that power on the flats as well.
All you're doing is changing the resistance: wind versus gravity.
Not my experience, there's a huge difference. I can hold a steady 4 W/Kg on climbs for a lot longer than I can on flat ground.

Originally Posted by asgelle View Post
And the inertial load. It will vary depending on the grade. Specificity still matters.
Agree 100%.
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Old 08-25-20, 12:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Dancing Skeleton View Post
Not my experience, there's a huge difference. I can hold a steady 4 W/Kg on climbs for a lot longer than I can on flat ground.
Not "can", "do".

You're physiologically capable of holding 4w/kg on flat ground, too. You just don't, probably because you don't train to.
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