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Advice - are there bikes with "Endurance" geometry that are ALSO relatively light???

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Advice - are there bikes with "Endurance" geometry that are ALSO relatively light???

Old 09-08-20, 09:56 AM
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Plainsman
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Advice - are there bikes with "Endurance" geometry that are ALSO relatively light???

Looking for some advice. Here is what I've looked at so far...

Specialized Roubaix Ultegra mechanical
Canyon Endurace 8.0 Ultegra Mechanical
Scott Addict 10 Ultegra Mechancial
Giant Defy Advanced 1 Ultegra Mechancial
Trek Emonda SL5 105
(All Disc - all similar price points - Emonda/Specialized are the pricier outliers)

I like to climb, I will not be racing this. Lots of fun rollers where I live. I will do some brisk weekly group rides (but probably average no more than 20/21 mph in a group for 30 miles or so). I will be looking for events/sportives, usually with climbing, 65-105 miles. Every ride is not a hammer ride (most are not), more social rides with friends - we just don't toddle along. My current bike is 18.5 pounds and climbs fine (rim brake). I have really long legs relative to height, so even with endurance geo I'm not sitting up, I get decent saddle to bar drop. It just seems like you have to choose, either light with a stretched out race frame (Aeroad / TCR / Madone / Tarmac), or a weight penalty for taller stack and less reach with lots of comfort features. Ideally I would take the shorter reach without the additional comfort features. Funny, in the offerings above, the Giant Defy is actually lighter than the Emonda, even though the Emonda is billed as a climbing bike. Probably because at the price point the Emonda is 105 while the Defy is Ultegra. Ironically, I'm being told the Emonda is better if I'm climbing, while it already weighs almost 20 pounds in a size 56 (I need a size 60), and the Defy I'm looking at in size large is just shy of 19 pounds. I'm headed towards the Defy right now (looks good, pending test ride), but wondering if I'm missing any options in this group. At my height and budget, I've given up on having a 16 pound bike, especially with everything going to disc, but I would love that 17-18 range. (I would be planning on upgrading wheels later to CF on any of these options - maybe use the stock wheels for the very rare day of gravel - but the ability to ride gravel is not a decision point for me). Specialized is the most expensive and a bit out of my range (and has even more stack than I want - Trek Emonda is second most expensive and also one of the heaviest offerings)
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Old 09-08-20, 10:09 AM
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How about gearing, are they all running the same setup? That could make a huge difference for someone who mainly wants to climb. I know the Defy comes with 11x34 & 34/50 which is great for climbing, but I'm not sure about the others.

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Old 09-08-20, 11:15 AM
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Originally Posted by eduskator View Post
How about gearing, are they all running the same setup? That could make a huge difference for someone who mainly wants to climb. I know the Defy comes with 11x34 & 34/50 which is great for climbing, but I'm not sure about the others.
All that I've listed have a 50/34 Chainset with an 11-34 rear cassette. That is the reason for the SL5 on the Trek, the SL6 would require a change of chainrings, rear derailleur and cassette. My goal event has over 10,000 feet of climbing. A true compact with a wide range rear cassette is a must.
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Old 09-08-20, 11:55 AM
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If you are very likely to upgrade your wheels, you should check the OEM wheel weight on your options and see how much an upgrade would shed to the total bike weight. Some of those are absolute boat anchors, while others are already light enough that an upgrade wouldn't help lighten the total by much.
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Old 09-08-20, 11:56 AM
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Outside of the Roubaix/Domane features that add weight, you're looking at maybe 200g between an endurance frame and a race frame. The biggest differences are components and especially wheels. My wife's rim brake Roubaix came with a 2.2kg wheelset. The frame+fork is likely <2kg for every bike you've listed. The rest is components.
Try weighing the bikes without wheels to give you a better sense of what the fundamental weight differences are.
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Old 09-08-20, 12:19 PM
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I love to climb too.

I am riding a Ti frame that weighs in around 19 pounds. I seem to have no problem out-climbing my friends who are on 16 pound wonder-bikes. I think a couple pounds is not going to make a big difference, other than placebo. Everyone thinks my bike weighs 15 pounds until they pick it up!
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Old 09-08-20, 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by surak View Post
If you are very likely to upgrade your wheels, you should check the OEM wheel weight on your options and see how much an upgrade would shed to the total bike weight. Some of those are absolute boat anchors, while others are already light enough that an upgrade wouldn't help lighten the total by much.
Good call, and I definitely would.
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Old 09-08-20, 12:47 PM
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Have you looked at the Cannondale Synapse Carbon Ultegra? It weighs in at 18.6 (56 cm) with 50/34, 11-34
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Old 09-08-20, 12:59 PM
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Originally Posted by surak View Post
If you are very likely to upgrade your wheels, you should check the OEM wheel weight on your options and see how much an upgrade would shed to the total bike weight. Some of those are absolute boat anchors, while others are already light enough that an upgrade wouldn't help lighten the total by much.
+1. I just replaced the OEM wheels on a Domane with deep dish carbon wheels and saved more than 300 grams. I made the switch for the aero gains, but the weight savings is a nice bonus.
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Old 09-08-20, 01:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Rhondito View Post
Have you looked at the Cannondale Synapse Carbon Ultegra? It weighs in at 18.6 (56 cm) with 50/34, 11-34
Thanks! I had missed that one. In my size, it comes in at 18.8, so roughly equal to the Defy. I'll add the C'dale to my list. I have a Cannondale and have always liked their quality.
The lightest in the bunch is clearly the Canyon, but the fact that I can't get it from my dealer is a knock (even though I'm handy enough to put my own bike together). The only one I don't know the weight on is the Specialized, although I have seen it in person and it didn't feel particularly light, and is probably the least likely on my list due to being the most expensive and the most upright in riding position.
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Old 09-08-20, 02:06 PM
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As someone toying around with the idea of a new bike (see here: Thoughtful replies requested: Advice for the next big “upgrade”? (*LONG*)), though probably not going in that direction, I totally get it.

A few things:
1) To preempt the people who don't understand nuance: I agree with everyone that weight isn't everything. Nor is it even the most important determinant of total bike performance. [Okay, can we talk about bike weight now without this getting ugly?].
2) That said, if I were buying a new bike it would still feel like a downgrade to have something that isn't as light and "fling-able" as my current road bike. And it sucks to think that some aspect of your new bike is "less good" than on your old bike. Weight definitely affects bike feel (acceleration and that sense of playfulness in the handling). Even if weight affects actual performance relatively little when we are talking about bikes that are all relatively light relative to total rider +bike weight combined. I like the feel of a lightweight bike.
3) Disc brakes, aerodynamics, and the UCI's stubborn weight limit: These are the reason that, for the same price point as years past, you end up with a considerably heavier bike. Sure, there are lightweight disc bikes, but they cost a lot more than a lightweight rim bike from years past. Manufacturers have run out of room to cut weight, but on the plus side, they have leeway to improve other things like aerodynamics, braking performance, and comfort while still keeping $10,000 bikes at 15-16 lbs. Unfortunately the recreational cyclist, who spends more like $1000-$3,000 on a 'nice' road bike, has gotten a heavier bike at these price points as a result of these otherwise performance or comfort enhancing features.
4) "Endurance Bikes": They *really* want to sell these bikes based on comfort, disc brakes, and room for big tires, which likely all increase potential weight.

My take: If you value bike weight above other features (whether rational or irrational regarding total performance), and aren't dead set on getting disc brakes, you can potentially find lighter rim brake bikes at a given price point that don't have as many aero or comfort features. Though rim brake models are getting rarer. Many mid-range and higher-end bikes are disc only now. I have a gravel bike with disc brakes and I know that the braking is technically more powerful from experience, but that said, my skinny tire bikes that only leave the house on dry days are mostly limited by the amount of rubber on the road rather than the power of the brakes. It's a totally different story on my gravel bike which comes out in wet weather and has lots more rubber on the road to take advantage of the stronger brakes.

My frame of reference: It would be hard to replace my CAAD10 right now at any reasonable price point without feeling cheated on a considerably bike weight increase. I got that bike as a previous year's model equipped with Ultegra for a good deal and it weighed 17.1 lbs *stock* with relatively heavy Mavic Aksium wheels. It weights 15.6 lbs now with a $300 wheel upgrade (Campagnolo Zonda C17 wheelset), lighter alloy bars ($50 on sale), and a more comfortable (and lighter) saddle. So almost 1.5 lbs of weight dropped with relatively inexpensive upgrades. If I wanted to buy a CAAD13 with disc brakes and Ultegra it would cost more and apparently weighs 18.75 lbs. The CAAD13 Ultegra rim brake model is 18.1 lbs and costs $400 less than the disc model. That $400 savings would buy you an alloy wheel upgrade and another 0.5 lbs of weight loss. So dollar-for-dollar you are getting a bike that weighs 17.6 lbs for the same price as the disc version (18.75 lbs).
[Note: 2012 CAAD10 Ultegra rim = 17.1 lbs stock vs 18.1 lbs for the 2020 CAAD13 Ultegra rim -- both with rim brakes. So there are a lot of other weight penalties at play in the 2020 version, despite similar frame weights and both having rim brakes. The same story is likely true across other brands.]

The Canyon Endurace weighs just 16.45 lbs in its rim brake guise, though I don't think the rim version is available in the US! Otherwise, looks awesome for someone looking for lightweight and endurance geometry. Hopefully there are other options out there! Assuming you are willing to trade weight loss for disc brake performance...

https://www.canyon.com/en-lv/road-bi...rahmenfarbe=BK

Last edited by TrackSmart; 09-08-20 at 03:22 PM.
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Old 09-08-20, 04:10 PM
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Think of your bike as having three main areas where you can affect the weight outcome.

Groups:
  • Group A: frame and components
  • Group B: stem, handlebar, and seatpost
  • Group C: the wheelset

Surprisingly, Group A is the least of your concerns. Put Ultegra on anything, alloy or carbon.

For Group B, make it all carbon. You can buy at the time of purchase, from the manufacture, but you'll pay a lot more. For Group C, the manufacture also have offerings, but you can find 3rd party carbon wheels, and decide on things like 35mm vs 55mm rim depth, hub types, and so on.

So, do you want a bike that is all carbon where it matters at the time of purchase, or do you want to source parts afterwards?
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Old 09-08-20, 04:15 PM
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Originally Posted by TrackSmart View Post
As someone toying around with the idea of a new bike (see here: Thoughtful replies requested: Advice for the next big “upgrade”? (*LONG*)), though probably not going in that direction, I totally get it.
You hit the nail on the head on so many points there. And spot on about weight. Although I've reached the point (at least for now), where my weight isn't changing unless it goes up, so the only place to save weight on long unforgiving climbs is the bike. It's not the ONLY thing, but I would say 2 pounds matters to me, even if it's just psychologically (I wouldn't spend a lot on a Domane for instance, knowing it is over 20 pounds without pedals.) Probably the only drawback I have with my current frame is that the widest tire I can fit on my Boyd Altamonts is 23mm, and I would like just a wee bit more comfort. I'm running aluminum hoops, a powertap rear hub with 32 spokes, and stock alu bars and stem - not to mention 10 speed Ultegra 6750 with non-series brakes so there are plenty of places to shave weight now. I imagine if I dropped R8000 on it and some lightweight wheels I would get a decent weight drop from that alone, before even thinking about bar, stem, or saddle. Given some creative purchases, I figure sub 17 pounds is doable for my size XL frame. In my mind that would be light.

I have always said that when I bought a new bike I would try disc, since I would like a bit more power and modulation on descents, and also more reliability during wet conditions. Since I would like the smaller gaps afforded by 11 speed, it seemed to make sense to buy a new bike versus upgrading the group set and wheels on what I have, but still having the same braking and tire clearance concerns. I just assumed that in the 7 model years since my purchase things would have gotten lighter across the board - but not the case.

So now my debate is whether to just figure my current bike will be my "lighter" climbing option and use it if the road is really going to turn up while accepting a new bike will be heavier, or taking the plunge on a new bike knowing I will also be swapping out several components to get the weight down to where it could be my do all bike.
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Old 09-08-20, 04:21 PM
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Originally Posted by pcunite View Post
Think of your bike as having three main areas where you can affect the weight outcome.

Groups:
  • Group A: frame and components
  • Group B: stem, handlebar, and seatpost
  • Group C: the wheelset

Surprisingly, Group A is the least of your concerns. Put Ultegra on anything, alloy or carbon.

For Group B, make it all carbon. You can buy at the time of purchase, from the manufacture, but you'll pay a lot more. For Group C, the manufacture also have offerings, but you can find 3rd party carbon wheels, and decide on things like 35mm vs 55mm rim depth, hub types, and so on.

So, do you want a bike that is all carbon where it matters at the time of purchase, or do you want to source parts afterwards?
Based on budget and offerings, I would say I'm more of an aftermarket guy. For instance, when it comes to wheels I would much rather select my own depth and profile than a mfgr house carbon wheel, all things being the same. Really it's a question of whether or not there is a path to get there. For instance, is there 2 pounds/almost 1kg to be made up on a Defy by replacing the stock alu wheels, non-series crankset, stem, bar, and 32mm tires with 28s? I haven't found all of the stock weights yet, but sounds like a big ask.

Edit - just looked up - the stock giant wheels are over 2000g, plus the 32s on them. Losing those alone I could drop over a pound. Going with the R8000 crankset over the non-series RS-510 almost makes up 2 pounds without touching the saddle, bars or stem - hmmmm

Last edited by Plainsman; 09-08-20 at 04:48 PM.
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Old 09-08-20, 06:19 PM
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If you want light, forget prebuilt bikes. Buy a frame that fits and use the latest 12 speed components. Campy Chorus is the cheapest 12 speed. With discs, the bike will gain about a pound. Consider wheels like the fulcrum racing 3 or Campy zonda. Both are best bang for the buck. I always use Easton ec-90 bars that are very light. I won't sacrifice comfort for low saddle weight. SMP saddle for me.

For bike weight to be real important, body weight should be minimal. At 5'-6" I weigh 135 and that's more than a pro would weigh. Carrying 10 lbs or more of excess body weight makes bike weight irrelevant.

Total price should be no more than 3k, plus frame. Sram force would cost about $500-600 more than chorus 12.

All that said, the Giant Defy with SRAM Force or Red look like good deals. Giant doesn't list weights.
https://www.giant-bicycles.com/us/defy-advanced-pro-1-force

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Old 09-08-20, 06:57 PM
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I have 2020 Defy advanced 2 (I think). 105 level components originally.
Running Sram Force 1x crankset, 105 rear mech. 105 mechanical levers with Avid mechanical disc callipers. Enve 4.5AR wheel set.
Weight is 18 lb ready to ride with pedals and bottle cages. M/L size.
It rides very well. Also enough clearance for any road/light gravel tyre (32mm).
Quite an aero frame design as well.
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Old 09-08-20, 07:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Dean V View Post
I have 2020 Defy advanced 2 (I think). 105 level components originally.
Running Sram Force 1x crankset, 105 rear mech. 105 mechanical levers with Avid mechanical disc callipers. Enve 4.5AR wheel set.
Weight is 18 lb ready to ride with pedals and bottle cages. M/L size.
It rides very well. Also enough clearance for any road/light gravel tyre (32mm).
Quite an aero frame design as well.
Good deal - 1/2 pound lighter than my current rim brake bike. I'm testing a Defy as soon as it comes in the shop.
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Old 09-08-20, 08:14 PM
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Take a look at the Bianchi Infinito CV disc. Endurance with decent group set and fairly light. I am please with mine.
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Old 09-08-20, 09:37 PM
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I suspect that Endurance Bike frames are built a little more robustly than Climbing Bike frames, because of who the bike companies expect to ride them.

Personally, I'm okay with an Endurance bike weighing just over 18lbs in my size, because it's STILL my lightest bike.
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Old 09-08-20, 09:44 PM
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OP: Have you considered the Cervelo R series? It is technically a race bike but relatively taller compared to others - like you, I too have a short torso and long legs, and so need a bike with more stack/less reach. My R5 with Ultegra Di2 and 50mm wheels clocked in around 7.3kg (16lb).
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Old 09-09-20, 03:55 AM
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Originally Posted by guadzilla View Post
OP: Have you considered the Cervelo R series? It is technically a race bike but relatively taller compared to others - like you, I too have a short torso and long legs, and so need a bike with more stack/less reach. My R5 with Ultegra Di2 and 50mm wheels clocked in around 7.3kg (16lb).
I have not but worth checking into, thanks! The only Cervelo I knew about with a shorter reach/taller stack was the Caledonia, but it looked to be a little $$. I had a Cervelo P2c for years and it was one of the best bikes I ever owned. I'll check it out.
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Old 09-09-20, 06:05 AM
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If you don't mind a used bike, look at previous generations of the Trek Domane.
I have a 1st generation frame with carbon bars/seat, Sram Red eTap and Aeolus wheels.
It weight 15 lbs with pedals, cages & mounts.
I'm pretty sure that a 2019 Domane frame is only a few grams heavier (front IsoSpeed) than my 2014.
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Old 09-09-20, 06:18 AM
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You didn't mention your budget (or I missed it). I just bought an Argon Krypton Pro. box stock full: Ultegra DI2, HED carbon wheels, and a listed weight (I dont weigh my bikes, I am the weight problem) in the 17's for a size med I think. An endurance geometry, and it has a clever system to change the stack by using their 3D system which give stack range of 30 mm for each frame size. (0, 15, and 30 mm 3D system). this is a $7500 bike. What I liked about it is the adjust-ability, and that it came with decent components (CF seat post bars, stem wheels) stock. I did have to change the cassette, and I got a new chain since I went from 27 to 32 to be sure I had enough chain.
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Old 09-09-20, 08:36 AM
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Originally Posted by mgopack42 View Post
You didn't mention your budget (or I missed it). I just bought an Argon Krypton Pro. box stock full: Ultegra DI2, HED carbon wheels, and a listed weight (I dont weigh my bikes, I am the weight problem) in the 17's for a size med I think. An endurance geometry, and it has a clever system to change the stack by using their 3D system which give stack range of 30 mm for each frame size. (0, 15, and 30 mm 3D system). this is a $7500 bike. What I liked about it is the adjust-ability, and that it came with decent components (CF seat post bars, stem wheels) stock. I did have to change the cassette, and I got a new chain since I went from 27 to 32 to be sure I had enough chain.
The OP's budget is the between the highest and lowest bikes he listed which appears to be about $2500 to $3000.

To the OP and to Plainsman I agree with your take on weight. There is something about owning a light weight bicycle.
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Old 09-09-20, 01:39 PM
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Don’t limit yourself to “ endurance “ bikes. I have a 2018 Cannondale Synapse. It is a great bike but I felt there was something missing. I got a 2020 Cannondale SuperSix and found the missing something. Handles more responsively, climbs better. If you can test ride both it would be worth trying. The Synapse was a great descender but is like a pair of GS skis, meant for carving longer arcs. The SuperSix is like slalom skis but not at all a twitchy descender, more like an amusement park on wheels!
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