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Addiction LXXX

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Road Cycling It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them. Thus you remember them as they actually are, while in a motor car only a high hill impresses you, and you have no such accurate remembrance of country you have driven through as you gain by riding a bicycle. -- Ernest Hemingway

Addiction LXXX

Old 10-27-20, 10:22 AM
  #2826  
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Originally Posted by rjones28
Time to consider a shed upgrade.
Be more specific.
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Old 10-27-20, 11:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Bah Humbug
If TSS did a better job of accounting for indoors effort, it'd be about perfect.
In what way do you think that TSS is lacking for indoor work? I never paid much attention to TSS until this year and haven't really made a note of it during my recent return to the trainer.
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Old 10-27-20, 11:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Bah Humbug

If TSS did a better job of accounting for indoors effort, it'd be about perfect.
Do you adjust your FTP down for the fake miles? My differential is about 30 W.
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Old 10-27-20, 11:12 AM
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Originally Posted by WhyFi
In what way do you think that TSS is lacking for indoor work? I never paid much attention to TSS until this year and haven't really made a note of it during my recent return to the trainer.
The TSS formula rewards duration more than average power, so it gives me more credit for two hours outside with lots of coasting and soft-pedaling than 75 minutes of indoors hammering with no lights, tailwinds, or downhills. However, a sequence of those 75-90' fake rides gets the real fitness of 120-135' outdoor rides.
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Old 10-27-20, 11:14 AM
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Originally Posted by MoAlpha
Do you adjust your FTP down for the fake miles? My differential is about 30 W.
My FTP is set indoors, so no. I'll be running another test soon when I have a day with fresh legs and cold air outside. Hitting 300W would be a nice thing for this horrible year.
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Old 10-27-20, 11:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Velo Vol
wut

One day last week the forecast low for Missoula was -9. A few mornings ago it was 1 at 8 am.
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Old 10-27-20, 11:19 AM
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Originally Posted by indyfabz
One day last week the forecast low for Missoula was -9. A few mornings ago it was 1 at 8 am.
Why would anyone live in such a place? It doesn't make any sense.
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Old 10-27-20, 11:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Bah Humbug
My FTP is set indoors, so no. I'll be running another test soon when I have a day with fresh legs and cold air outside. Hitting 300W would be a nice thing for this horrible year.
I have done a few 20 min tests indoors and don't know if I can get myself to do another one. Outdoors, it's impossible to find the right terrain. I have been using on the Morton 3 parameter estimate in Intervals, which uses much shorter efforts. I just bump the latest estimate incrementally as I get objectively faster or show an increase in power/HR (which I have been doing most of the season) and decrease it by the decay built into Intervals, when I take time off.

Last edited by MoAlpha; 10-27-20 at 11:25 AM.
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Old 10-27-20, 11:24 AM
  #2834  
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Originally Posted by MoAlpha
Do you adjust your FTP down for the fake miles? My differential is about 30 W.
Whoa. I've just kept mine at about what I thought it was outdoors and it's felt about right.

I think.

Both situations are so different. Outside, I have a hard time getting dialed in to a holding-on-by-the-fingernails effort because of the ever-changing resistances. When I'm inside, I obviously don't have to deal with slight elevation changes or gusting winds, but it's just.. well, it sucks - we all know this.

That said, I think that I need to keep tweaking cadence at power on the trainer. I'm realizing now that my self-selected cadence on the road (~100 - 105 is pretty typical) really drives my HR up and that I may be leaving some watts on the table.
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Old 10-27-20, 11:33 AM
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Originally Posted by WhyFi
Whoa. I've just kept mine at about what I thought it was outdoors and it's felt about right.

I think.

Both situations are so different. Outside, I have a hard time getting dialed in to a holding-on-by-the-fingernails effort because of the ever-changing resistances. When I'm inside, I obviously don't have to deal with slight elevation changes or gusting winds, but it's just.. well, it sucks - we all know this.

That said, I think that I need to keep tweaking cadence at power on the trainer. I'm realizing now that my self-selected cadence on the road (~100 - 105 is pretty typical) really drives my HR up and that I may be leaving some watts on the table.
The "literature," such as it is says you can expect something like that. All I know for sure is I got numbers outdoors this season, once I added the PM, that I would have no hope of reproducing on the trainer, although I admit I haven't tried a balls-to-the wall trainer effort in a few months. I just feel really puny on it and the two instruments can't be off by more than a few %.

I have to admit that the trainer estimate is pretty old and doesn't take recent improvement into account. I just hate the idea of increasing it.
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Old 10-27-20, 11:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Velo Vol
Why would anyone live in such a place? It doesn't make any sense.
The surrounding areas are quite nice. You can do things like ride to a blue ribbon trout stream in the forest in under 25 miles I have told people that if I lived there I would never be home in the summer because I would be out on the bike touring somewhere. It's also a university town, so there are some nice places to eat and drink.

The state is actually experiencing a huge real estate boom right now, driving prices through the roof. They think it was started by people with money in big cities wanting to get away from the COVID thing, when the infection rate in the state was relatively low. The irony is now the state is seeing a huge spike.

https://missoulian.com/news/local/mi...8d53c24f2.html

Some believe there will be a glut on the market in a couple of years when these new purchasers realize just how hard the winters can be, although climate change may affect that.
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Old 10-27-20, 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Bah Humbug
The TSS formula rewards duration more than average power, so it gives me more credit for two hours outside with lots of coasting and soft-pedaling than 75 minutes of indoors hammering with no lights, tailwinds, or downhills. However, a sequence of those 75-90' fake rides gets the real fitness of 120-135' outdoor rides.
Ah, yes. I have made a mental note that I will not be seeing an average daily load of 100, something that was pretty easy on the road, while the trainer is my primary outlet. Where my real fitness ends up remains to be seen, of course.
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Old 10-27-20, 11:46 AM
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Originally Posted by MoAlpha
The "literature," such as it is says you can expect something like that. All I know for sure is I got numbers outdoors this season, once I added the PM, that I would have no hope of reproducing on the trainer, although I admit I haven't tried a balls-to-the wall trainer effort in a few months. I just feel really puny on it and the two instruments can't be off by more than a few %.

I have to admit that the trainer estimate is pretty old and doesn't take recent improvement into account. I just hate the idea of increasing it.
Ha - increasing it just makes more work for yourself. Give it a whirl, though - you might be pleasantly surprised. As mentioned, my recent efforts have felt about right, maybe even a touch low, but I don't think that I could have completed them last year or the year before.
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Old 10-27-20, 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Velo Vol
Why would anyone live in such a place? It doesn't make any sense.
Missoula is a pretty awesome town. Montana college girls will keep you warm (well, at least they did in the '90s )
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Old 10-27-20, 12:01 PM
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Originally Posted by WhyFi
Ha - increasing it just makes more work for yourself. Give it a whirl, though - you might be pleasantly surprised. As mentioned, my recent efforts have felt about right, maybe even a touch low, but I don't think that I could have completed them last year or the year before.
Oh, Ill take a run at an objective measurement eventually, as winter insanity sets in.
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Old 10-27-20, 12:04 PM
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Happy 83rd to Wanda Jackson !!!

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Old 10-27-20, 12:18 PM
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Protest planned for City Hall at 4 pm. I am a few blocks away. Think I might take an early quit. Hope there is no rioting/looting.
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Old 10-27-20, 12:29 PM
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Originally Posted by MoAlpha
Oh, Ill take a run at an objective measurement eventually, as winter insanity sets in.
You have Zwift, so participate in the best FTP test they have which is a Crit City race. Then hold with the pack for your group for as long as you possibly can. That event generated my last FTP number and seems pretty reasonable. I say try this because, at least for me, an individual 20 min effort is a bore chore. I cannot stand plain FTP tests. I prefer to use a group ride like that or some other Zwift event with a long climb (Innsbruck is a good one).

However, I'll note that it takes time for me to transition from outside to inside (and vice-versa) and I really don't have too much of an issue riding the trainer to begin with.
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Old 10-27-20, 12:56 PM
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Originally Posted by WhyFi
Ah, yes. I have made a mental note that I will not be seeing an average daily load of 100, something that was pretty easy on the road, while the trainer is my primary outlet. Where my real fitness ends up remains to be seen, of course.
FWIW, my considerable experience with this is that indoor TSS is worth about 50% more in outdoor TSS, once you get back used to the extra factors of real riding (if you temporarily decline there by never riding outdoors). I wouldn't say it's the same for everyone, but a fitness of 80 from the trainer will let me do early season rides like it's north of 120 from outside.
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Old 10-27-20, 01:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Velo Vol
Why would anyone live in such a place? It doesn't make any sense.
2 words: Builds character.
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Old 10-27-20, 02:12 PM
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Originally Posted by MoAlpha
Do you adjust your FTP down for the fake miles? My differential is about 30 W.
I set it down 10 from outside eFTP it should probably go lower
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Old 10-27-20, 02:18 PM
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Originally Posted by mvnsnd
You have Zwift, so participate in the best FTP test they have which is a Crit City race. Then hold with the pack for your group for as long as you possibly can. That event generated my last FTP number and seems pretty reasonable. I say try this because, at least for me, an individual 20 min effort is a bore chore. I cannot stand plain FTP tests. I prefer to use a group ride like that or some other Zwift event with a long climb (Innsbruck is a good one).

However, I'll note that it takes time for me to transition from outside to inside (and vice-versa) and I really don't have too much of an issue riding the trainer to begin with.
Excellent idea.
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Old 10-27-20, 02:18 PM
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Originally Posted by WhyFi
Whoa. I've just kept mine at about what I thought it was outdoors and it's felt about right.

I think.

Both situations are so different. Outside, I have a hard time getting dialed in to a holding-on-by-the-fingernails effort because of the ever-changing resistances. When I'm inside, I obviously don't have to deal with slight elevation changes or gusting winds, but it's just.. well, it sucks - we all know this.

That said, I think that I need to keep tweaking cadence at power on the trainer. I'm realizing now that my self-selected cadence on the road (~100 - 105 is pretty typical) really drives my HR up and that I may be leaving some watts on the table.
Thats interesting, because I feel the same way about cadence.

Ive noticed its way harder to hold on for an interval in ERG than a similar effort would be outside. I havent dont an indoor FTP test, but dropped 10w from outside to get an idea (and updated my intervals profile to match). I think the thing that kills me is temperature control, even in a 45 degree garage I was dying of heat.
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Old 10-27-20, 02:21 PM
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Originally Posted by phrantic09
I set it down 10 from outside eFTP it should probably go lower
I started at 10 for some rainy day rides this summer and it was just ridiculously hard.
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Old 10-27-20, 02:59 PM
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Originally Posted by BillyD
2 words: Builds character.
So does manually digging a mile long ditch, but no one in their right mind does that.
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