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So It's Come To This?!

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So It's Come To This?!

Old 10-15-20, 10:42 AM
  #101  
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Originally Posted by indyfabz View Post
I was careful not to hit buy it now.
That he requires the buyer to provide insurance killed it for me.
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Old 10-15-20, 10:42 AM
  #102  
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Originally Posted by msu2001la View Post
The other main difference with the Aethos is that it's only being offered with top-tier groupsets. This might change over time, but it's notable that there's no $2200 version with alloy wheels and 105 components like you find with the Tarmac and Roubaix.
It's being sold as a ultra light bicycle. Once you offer it with mid level groupsets, it doesn't drop the price as much as you think since the framset is still expensive. This works with the Tarmac and Emonda because they use cheaper carbon which drops the price but also increases the weight which negates the "ultra light" cache.

An Emonda SL5 with mechanical 105 is 1/4 the price of a SLR with Dura Ace Di2. It also weighs 35% more.
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Old 10-15-20, 11:06 AM
  #103  
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Originally Posted by GlennR View Post
It's being sold as a ultra light bicycle. Once you offer it with mid level groupsets, it doesn't drop the price as much as you think since the framset is still expensive. This works with the Tarmac and Emonda because they use cheaper carbon which drops the price but also increases the weight which negates the "ultra light" cache.

An Emonda SL5 with mechanical 105 is 1/4 the price of a SLR with Dura Ace Di2. It also weighs 35% more.
Yeah, you don't want to break it all down to component selection and how they make up the complete cost. You'll never get a sensible result.
Eg. use the DA Di2 Aethos at $12,500 and compare to the linked DA Di2 Allied Alfa at $7850 Allied Alfa Disc ).
Aethos Frameset = $5200
Allied Frameset = $3800
Aethos Wheelset = $2500
Allied Wheeset = $2100

Overall difference is $1800 so far. The 2 complete bikes though are priced $4650 apart. Presumably the extra almost $3K is paying for all of those non-proprietary cockpit components.
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Old 10-16-20, 06:52 AM
  #104  
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Originally Posted by GlennR View Post
It's being sold as a ultra light bicycle. Once you offer it with mid level groupsets, it doesn't drop the price as much as you think since the framset is still expensive. This works with the Tarmac and Emonda because they use cheaper carbon which drops the price but also increases the weight which negates the "ultra light" cache.

An Emonda SL5 with mechanical 105 is 1/4 the price of a SLR with Dura Ace Di2. It also weighs 35% more.
R7000 105 is a great groupset, but anyone who puts that on a 588g frame needs to be shot.
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Old 10-16-20, 01:30 PM
  #105  
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People are getting too hung up on the price of a single bike. Jason Momoa on the other hand...
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Old 10-16-20, 01:59 PM
  #106  
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a little late to this thread, just saw the first post and the bike and i couldn't have shrugged apathetically any harder. besides, the sloping top tube is a frame design aspect that needs to die horribly so the bike is ugly to begin with. i don't care if weighs less than a quarter - if it doesn't look good, what's the point? its like making a car with a maclaren level craftsmanship, but putting it in the body & chassis of a yugo.
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Old 10-16-20, 03:02 PM
  #107  
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Originally Posted by the sci guy View Post
besides, the sloping top tube is a frame design aspect that needs to die horribly so the bike is ugly to begin with. i don't care if weighs less than a quarter - if it doesn't look good, what's the point?
Another point of a sloping top tube is to allow more seat post, which adds compliance. Some bikes are meant to be ridden, not just looked at.
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Old 10-16-20, 04:13 PM
  #108  
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Originally Posted by surak View Post
People are getting too hung up on the price of a single bike. Jason Momoa on the other hand...
https://www.instagram.com/p/CGH3cyhjy8W/
I don't see no fins.. they work underwater?
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Old 10-19-20, 04:02 AM
  #109  
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I have a soft spot in my heart, and some would say in my brain, for single-ended triode amplifiers using radio station transmitter tubes. You could buy the WAVAC833A stereo amplifier for $350,000. But you can build one like it for under $2000 and have all the design features you want, such as polypropylene filter capacitors in the 1000 Volts I use to run mine. It sounds closer to how a live performance sounds like in the opera house I went to before the plague closed public performances. I wonder how much it cost in parts to build the $12,500 bike.
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Old 10-19-20, 09:55 AM
  #110  
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Fun stuff.

I've been in cycling for a long time. First response is "WTF I'm NEVER spending that on a bike. It'd be a great downpayment for a new car."

Then you have to look at other hobbies. What do people spend on motorsports hobbies? Seriously. In comparison to most other hobbies $12500 isn't really much of a blip on the radar.

The bling they have hanging on it is super expensive.

Now for the fun take: Have a buddy who works at the S. I asked him his honest take. "It's the bike that 90% of riders and racers should be on if they're already in the market to drop $10k+ on a bike. No fuss with proprietary stuff, fits 32c tires and it's light and snappy. Oh and it looks F*#$in good."

TBH - I couldn't go out and buy a decent bike at this point in my life. I just couldn't justify it and I am in the industry. Most of the people that I know who are in the industry are in the same boat. I'm talking in the $3k-$7k range. So to me a $12k bike just isn't on my radar and won't be for the foreseeable future. neither is a $50k+ car for that matter.
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Old 10-19-20, 10:18 AM
  #111  
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Originally Posted by drbarney1 View Post
I have a soft spot in my heart, and some would say in my brain, for single-ended triode amplifiers using radio station transmitter tubes. You could buy the WAVAC833A stereo amplifier for $350,000. But you can build one like it for under $2000 and have all the design features you want, such as polypropylene filter capacitors in the 1000 Volts I use to run mine. It sounds closer to how a live performance sounds like in the opera house I went to before the plague closed public performances. I wonder how much it cost in parts to build the $12,500 bike.
2A3 guy here... I hear ya. That's the closest I have come to having Reiner and CSO playing in my living room.

But cost of materials is a very small part of the overall costs, atleast on a commercial scale.
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Old 10-22-20, 12:31 PM
  #112  
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That didn't take long: https://cyclingtips.com/2020/10/spec...-aethos-range/

Aethos Pro Ultegra Di2 (carbon seat post and carbon wheels): $7400
Aethos Expert Ultegra Di2 (alloy wheels): $5200

You can buy the Pro/Expert frame, which is 100g heavier than the S-works model, for $3200. (The S-works frameset is priced at $5200).
https://www.specialized.com/us/en/sh...ethos/c/aethos
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Old 10-22-20, 04:32 PM
  #113  
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Originally Posted by msu2001la View Post
That didn't take long: https://cyclingtips.com/2020/10/spec...-aethos-range/

Aethos Pro Ultegra Di2 (carbon seat post and carbon wheels): $7400
Aethos Expert Ultegra Di2 (alloy wheels): $5200

You can buy the Pro/Expert frame, which is 100g heavier than the S-works model, for $3200. (The S-works frameset is priced at $5200).
https://www.specialized.com/us/en/sh...ethos/c/aethos
Yay! We did it! Good job everyone
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Old 10-23-20, 08:04 AM
  #114  
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The Aethos pricing is $200 more than the Tarmac at every level.

S-Works Tarmac SL7 Dura Ace Di2: $12,300
S-Works Aethos Dura Ace Di2: $12,500

Tarmac SL7 Pro Ultegra Di2: $7200
Aethos Pro Ultegra Di2: $7400

Tarmac SL7 Expert Ultegra Di2: $5000
Aethos Expert Ultegra Di2: $5200

We might have to wait until the next generation of Aethos to get lower tier versions. Still, it's not hard to imagine a future Aethos Comp with mechanical Ultegra/105 for $3800/$3000.
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Old 10-23-20, 08:21 AM
  #115  
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Originally Posted by Psimet2001 View Post
Then you have to look at other hobbies. What do people spend on motorsports hobbies? Seriously. In comparison to most other hobbies $12500 isn't really much of a blip on the radar.
I could have owned several of those upper tier S-works bikes for what I spent on sailing. And I was only a 1/2 share partner for 10 years. What others tell me they spend on just golfing pales in comparison.
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Old 10-23-20, 10:12 AM
  #116  
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Originally Posted by Iride01 View Post
I could have owned several of those upper tier S-works bikes for what I spent on sailing. And I was only a 1/2 share partner for 10 years. What others tell me they spend on just golfing pales in comparison.
A $50k bass boat is the S-works of the fishing world.

Is it needed to go fishing? No.
Does it help you catch more fish? Probably not.
Is it still a fun toy to own, even if the price tag is excessive? Yes.
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Old 10-23-20, 10:24 AM
  #117  
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Originally Posted by Iride01 View Post
I could have owned several of those upper tier S-works bikes for what I spent on sailing. And I was only a 1/2 share partner for 10 years. What others tell me they spend on just golfing pales in comparison.
BOAT = Break Out Another Thousand

I look at it this way, Yes, i can tell the difference between a $2000 and a $12,000 bike. And you can't take it with you so you might as well enjoy it.
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Old 10-23-20, 10:42 AM
  #118  
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Originally Posted by msu2001la View Post
A $50k bass boat is the S-works of the fishing world.

Is it needed to go fishing? No.
Does it help you catch more fish? Probably not.
Is it still a fun toy to own, even if the price tag is excessive? Yes.
I think that sums it up nicely for almost any category of sport, hobby or even for your vocation.

but just a 50,000 dollar bass boat? Those are 20 year old MSRP's , maybe 30 years <grin>
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Old 10-23-20, 12:58 PM
  #119  
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Yeah I have spent years trying to figure out why expensive stuff in this specific hobby seems to draw so much ire.

The only thing I keep coming back to is the concept that we seem to view everything at the end of the day just as a "bike"....a "toy" for children. Something that should almost be "free".

I constantly hear people in the racing community bemoan the imagined "cost" associated with racing. That we somehow need to make it much cheaper for everyone who wants to do it. All I can think of is how much track fees and tires for a weekend cost for people racing at the most amateur levels in go-karts, motocross, or SCCA type stuff. It's a hobby - not a right. There doesn't need to be universal access to everyone who wants to do it "a lot" or at a "high level".

...now the mission to get working bikes into communities to help everyone....that's a different mission.
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Old 10-25-20, 08:18 AM
  #120  
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A Rolls Royce Phantom really isnít any better than a Mercedes Benz S Class from a pure luxury standpoint, but in one, you show up in a Mercedes, in the other, you arrive in a Rolls.

Just be happy there are ways for people to spend their money as they wish. Doesnít meaN you have to! There are a lot of things Iím not likely to spend my money on, but appreciate they exist:
- $5000 Swarovski binoculars
- $50,000 B&W Nautilus speakers
- $500,000 tourbillon watches

Iím pretty sure the value side of the equation for any of those is weak, but some people want them, why criticize?
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Old 10-25-20, 08:25 AM
  #121  
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Originally Posted by Psimet2001 View Post
The only thing I keep coming back to is the concept that we seem to view everything at the end of the day just as a "bike"....a "toy" for children. Something that should almost be "free".
How about professional baseball players playing a kids game and making $$$$$$$$$$$$ ?

But a bicycle is not a toy but transportation for many. I see a lot of people that use bicycles to get to work because they can't afford a car and public transportation is minimal at best. When I got my wife a new bike I serviced her old bike and donated to a group that give them to someone that needs one for transportation. Honestly, I would of listed it for $75 and taken $50 so why not donate it to someone that values it much more?

most people think an expensive bike is $2000. Little do they know what they really go for. If you can afford it and appreciate it then go for it. If yo think a bike is a bike then buy a Huffy and ride the crap out of it.
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Old 10-25-20, 08:41 AM
  #122  
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Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
Yup.

I worked in high-end audio for a long time. One thing that I found was that people that complained about price had some kind of appreciation for what a product was, what it did, what made it special, etc. What they didn't have was a grasp on the kind of work and attention to detail that it took to get it there. People that truly don't get a product usually don't kvetch about it - they just shake their head and move on.
When I was younger, had a comfortable level of disposable income, could still hear a reasonable amount of the audio spectrum, I would take home a component from a high end audio store near me that allowed this. I would do this on a Saturday night and have the Sunday to Monday morning to listen to the component in my system in my listening area and then decide if it made the difference I was looking for. If it didn't I would take it back on Monday. If it did I would call and tell my guy to run the charge. To bad we can't do this with the bikes we want to see if they really make a difference to us on our rides. As a side note, most of the time we ran the card, just saying.
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Old 10-26-20, 11:54 AM
  #123  
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Originally Posted by GlennR View Post
<snip>most people think an expensive bike is $2000.
"Most" is a big word. The vast majority of "common" people that come in to my shop think that $300 is a fortune for a bicycle. The largest part of the cycling industry - by far - is the $800 and under bracket. It really is that big of a disconnect.

Volume wise it isn't close either. If you aren't in an urban area then the idea of using a bicycle as transportation just doesn't exist in people's minds. Enthusiast riders are seen as "Lance wannabes". The general public honestly couldn't care less about cycling and still sees bicycles as something that should be in the $50-$300 range. Expensive "race" level bikes might be $1k in their world. I get it near daily.

"How much is something like that?" Pointing to workstand.
"Not 100% sure but if he had to replace it I would guess it would cost in the range of $3500"
"WTF?! You're kidding!!"
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Old 10-26-20, 12:13 PM
  #124  
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Originally Posted by Psimet2001 View Post
"Most" is a big word. The vast majority of "common" people that come in to my shop think that $300 is a fortune for a bicycle. The largest part of the cycling industry - by far - is the $800 and under bracket. It really is that big of a disconnect.

Volume wise it isn't close either. If you aren't in an urban area then the idea of using a bicycle as transportation just doesn't exist in people's minds. Enthusiast riders are seen as "Lance wannabes". The general public honestly couldn't care less about cycling and still sees bicycles as something that should be in the $50-$300 range. Expensive "race" level bikes might be $1k in their world. I get it near daily.

"How much is something like that?" Pointing to workstand.
"Not 100% sure but if he had to replace it I would guess it would cost in the range of $3500"
"WTF?! You're kidding!!"
It's a manifestation of the BSO sold at mass-market retailers. Unlike cars, where safety standards keep cars like the Tata Nano ($2500 new) out of the US. There's a 10x price difference between a Nano and car like Kia/Honda/Toyota/Chevy that's sells for $25k. The Nano will fall apart very quickly, the wheel bearings will literally disintegrate at US highway speeds, very similar to the $179 bike at Wal-Mart.
The primary difference is that labor in India is very cheap, so paying to continually fix a car makes sense given the low initial investment. With bikes, you just buy another because the labor is more than the bike.

In the US, the $179 doesn't actually work, and would cost you an extra $100 bringing it to $300 just to have a shop fix it.
My neighbors had the grand-parents by a basic kids bike for their grandson at a generic retailer. The hubs were badly adjusted, the cranks wouldn't really turn, the brakes didn't touch the rim, and the poor kid couldn't ride at all. After a complete tear-down, it rode like new, but I felt much better about the bike I bought from REI which came properly adjusted.
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Old 10-26-20, 02:24 PM
  #125  
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Originally Posted by gsa103 View Post
It's a manifestation of the BSO sold at mass-market retailers. Unlike cars, where safety standards keep cars like the Tata Nano ($2500 new) out of the US. There's a 10x price difference between a Nano and car like Kia/Honda/Toyota/Chevy that's sells for $25k. The Nano will fall apart very quickly, the wheel bearings will literally disintegrate at US highway speeds, very similar to the $179 bike at Wal-Mart.
The primary difference is that labor in India is very cheap, so paying to continually fix a car makes sense given the low initial investment. With bikes, you just buy another because the labor is more than the bike.

In the US, the $179 doesn't actually work, and would cost you an extra $100 bringing it to $300 just to have a shop fix it.
My neighbors had the grand-parents by a basic kids bike for their grandson at a generic retailer. The hubs were badly adjusted, the cranks wouldn't really turn, the brakes didn't touch the rim, and the poor kid couldn't ride at all. After a complete tear-down, it rode like new, but I felt much better about the bike I bought from REI which came properly adjusted.

The 10x gap is relative, though.
Most people can easily understand the differences between a $120 bike and a $1,200 bike. There are some very clear differences in capability and performance.

The same cannot be said for understanding the difference between a $1,200 bike and a $12,000 bike, especially when the intended use doesn't involve racing.
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