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Flats for tubeless hookless-can a tube be pumped up with a mini pump?

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Flats for tubeless hookless-can a tube be pumped up with a mini pump?

Old 10-10-20, 05:49 AM
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Captain_Canada
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Flats for tubeless hookless-can a tube be pumped up with a mini pump?

Hi! Question for those that use tubeless:

I've been watching some videos on setting up road tubeless and it looks like a special pump/sudden burst of air is needed to get the sides of the tires to snap in place.

If I get a flat on the road and the sealant doesn't stop the leak, and I have to use an inner tube to get home, could I get the tire to snap in place just with a normal portable mini pump? The wheels will likely be the new giant tubeless hookless ones. how does that work and how hard is it to do?

I have never used tubeless (just clinchers/tubes) so thanks for pointers.
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Old 10-10-20, 06:20 AM
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First you need to define "mini pump...."In case you missed it, one of our sketchier members had an amusing thread about that. Sorry, I can't seem to find it to link. Anyway, yes you can just pump it with your usual pump. Since you are pumping the tube, you don't need the tubeless blast of air. Edit- I don't know if hookless makes a difference. Someone please correct me if it does.

Last edited by shelbyfv; 10-10-20 at 06:24 AM.
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Old 10-10-20, 06:37 AM
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Originally Posted by shelbyfv View Post
First you need to define "mini pump...."In case you missed it, one of our sketchier members had an amusing thread about that. Sorry, I can't seem to find it to link. Anyway, yes you can just pump it with your usual pump. Since you are pumping the tube, you don't need the tubeless blast of air. Edit- I don't know if hookless makes a difference. Someone please correct me if it does.
It makes no difference,
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Old 10-10-20, 07:44 AM
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Well it may not make a difference to what is asked exactly, buy hookless rims does make a difference. Most tyres are made for hooked rims and mounting them to a hookless rim is considered experimenting, and you are on your own. Some manufacturers (Enve?) have a "positive list" for tyres that are tested to work with hookless rims and at least one tyre manufacturer (Continental) actively warns against hookless rims. Imo its a can of worms, carefully consider if you want such a rim.

Required reading in the links:

https://www.giant-bicycles.com/globa...ess-technology

https://dk8nafk1kle6o.cloudfront.net...1600862031.pdf

https://www.bikeradar.com/news/giant...approved-list/

Last edited by Racing Dan; 10-10-20 at 07:57 AM.
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Old 10-10-20, 08:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Racing Dan View Post
Well it may not make a difference to what is asked exactly, buy hookless rims does make a difference. Most tyres are made for hooked rims and mounting them to a hookless rim is considered experimenting, and you are on your own. Some manufacturers (Enve?) have a "positive list" for tyres that are tested to work with hookless rims and at least one tyre manufacturer (Continental) actively warns against hookless rims. Imo its a can of worms, carefully consider if you want such a rim.

Required reading in the links:

https://www.giant-bicycles.com/globa...ess-technology

https://dk8nafk1kle6o.cloudfront.net...1600862031.pdf

https://www.bikeradar.com/news/giant...approved-list/
More and more tire manufacturers are making tires that are specifically hookless compatible, such as Pirelli's latest offerings. In addition, there's stuff from: Schwalble, Michelin, Vittoria, etc - lots of good options. I knew going in that Conti GP5ks wouldn't be compatible with the Zipp 303S, but I've never thought that the Conti GP4kII lived up to the extreme hype, so I was a-okay with that and went ahead with the purchase. No regrets - the wheels have been awesome.
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Old 10-10-20, 08:30 AM
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Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
More and more tire manufacturers are making tires that are specifically hookless compatible, such as Pirelli's latest offerings. In addition, there's stuff from: Schwalble, Michelin, Vittoria, etc - lots of good options. I knew going in that Conti GP5ks wouldn't be compatible with the Zipp 303S, but I've never thought that the Conti GP4kII lived up to the extreme hype, so I was a-okay with that and went ahead with the purchase. No regrets - the wheels have been awesome.
Sure! ... Knock yourself out. Giant has an "extensive" list of compatible tyres, linked above.

EDIT:
I wanted to add that even if Zipp says x tyre is compatible with their rims, its no guarantee the same x tyre will fit or be safe on a Giant or Enve rim. Thats the nature non-standards. There is zero guarantee any of these rims are alike and you are then confined to whatever tyres Your wheel manufacturer has approved of. Venturing outside that box and you are on your own, experimenting.

Last edited by Racing Dan; 10-10-20 at 08:50 AM.
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Old 10-10-20, 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Racing Dan View Post
Sure! ... Knock yourself out. Giant has an "extensive" list of compatible tyres, linked above.

EDIT:
I wanted to add that even if Zipp says x tyre is compatible with their rims, its no guarantee the same x tyre will fit or be safe on a Giant or Enve rim. Thats the nature non-standards. There is zero guarantee any of these rims are alike and you are then confined to whatever tyres Your wheel manufacturer has approved of. Venturing outside that box and you are on your own, experimenting.
You did see that the list excluded anything below 72.5psi and that tires suitable for hookless rims run below that pressure are approved and won't be listed? Regardless, Enve has a pretty filled out list, Zipp keeps adding to theirs and, as previously mentioned, the manufacturers that I listed above are suitable for hookless. But yeah - it's a big, scary proposition.
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Old 10-10-20, 10:54 PM
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If you stay within the boundaries, TL tyre and low pressure (5 bar or less) or approved tyre, you are fine, but why would you. There is no benefit except some nebulous marketing claims. On the other hand the limitations are very real.

The approved list for the proposed Giant wheel sure isn't anything to brag about and explicitly excludes some of the most popular tyres from Vittoria, Pirelli and Continental.

... and I haven't even touched on the absolute insanity in selling wheels that look almost exactly like a normal clincher and will let you mount a normal clincher tyre and a tube, creating an unsafe condition. Or let you mount any TL tyre but doesn't warn you that the pressure marking in the tyre doesn't apply unless the specific tyre is on an approved list found in the belly of the wheel manufacturers website. Potentially also creating an unsafe condition.

Last edited by Racing Dan; 10-10-20 at 11:25 PM.
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Old 10-11-20, 06:11 AM
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This has been a valuable thread for me in that it has provided info about "hookless" which had been under my radar. Definitely not something that appeals to me for a road bike. I guess it all comes down to manufacturers saving whatever $ is needed to mold the little hook on carbon rims. Seems they have accepted some significant liability along with the savings.
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Old 10-11-20, 06:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Racing Dan View Post
If you stay within the boundaries, TL tyre and low pressure (5 bar or less) or approved tyre, you are fine, but why would you. There is no benefit except some nebulous marketing claims. On the other hand the limitations are very real.

The approved list for the proposed Giant wheel sure isn't anything to brag about and explicitly excludes some of the most popular tyres from Vittoria, Pirelli and Continental.

... and I haven't even touched on the absolute insanity in selling wheels that look almost exactly like a normal clincher and will let you mount a normal clincher tyre and a tube, creating an unsafe condition. Or let you mount any TL tyre but doesn't warn you that the pressure marking in the tyre doesn't apply unless the specific tyre is on an approved list found in the belly of the wheel manufacturers website. Potentially also creating an unsafe condition.
Lower pressure and hookless designs are nothing but nebulous marketing claims? Just out of curiousity, how many hookless, tubeless setups have you ridden?

Also, the Vittoria and the Pirelli failed in the 25 and 24/26mm sizes, but weren't tested the larger sizes. Have you read through the testing protocol? Do you know why they failed? Do you think that it might have to do with being inflated to 195psi? Yeah, maybe.

Look, people that are interested in hookless wheels know the limitations right off the bat - it's kind of hard to avoid - and they have an understanding of the benefits, too. No one that purchases wheels along these lines is going to blindly buy their next tires, throw them on and then pump them up to 125psi. They're going hookless/tubeless specifically because that kind of old-school sillyness holds no appeal.
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Old 10-11-20, 06:36 AM
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Originally Posted by shelbyfv View Post
This has been a valuable thread for me in that it has provided info about "hookless" which had been under my radar. Definitely not something that appeals to me for a road bike. I guess it all comes down to manufacturers saving whatever $ is needed to mold the little hook on carbon rims.
They're also more durable/less susceptible to damage via impact and provide a smoother, more aero transition between the tire and rim and are generally easier to seat tires. Definitely not for the old school, but if you're going to be running <70 psi anyway, there's not much of a drawback unless you're wedded to Conti tires.
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Old 10-11-20, 08:36 AM
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Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
Lower pressure and hookless designs are nothing but nebulous marketing claims? Just out of curiousity, how many hookless, tubeless setups have you ridden?


Also, the Vittoria and the Pirelli failed in the 25 and 24/26mm sizes, but weren't tested the larger sizes. Have you read through the testing protocol? Do you know why they failed? Do you think that it might have to do with being inflated to 195psi? Yeah, maybe.


Look, people that are interested in hookless wheels know the limitations right off the bat - it's kind of hard to avoid - and they have an understanding of the benefits, too. No one that purchases wheels along these lines is going to blindly buy their next tires, throw them on and then pump them up to 125psi. They're going hookless/tubeless specifically because that kind of old-school sillyness holds no appeal.


low pressure is not limited to hookless rims. Why even allude to that. Riding the same tyre tyre on either a hooked or hookless rim is going to be the same, assuming the same inner width. If anything a straight inner rim wall is going to force the tyre into a shape it wasnt designed for. Anyone can speculate if that is or isn't something worry about. - Except of course if you can find a tyre that was designed for hookless.


All hookless does for you is exclude you from using any clincher tyre, limit 90% of available TL tyres to 5 bar cos they are not tested and confine you to a small list of tested tyres that may or may not be maintained in the future.


Ppl doesnt know the limitations unless someone tell them, but apparently, doing just that, is taboo around here :-)
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Old 10-11-20, 08:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Racing Dan View Post
low pressure is not limited to hookless rims. Why even allude to that. Riding the same tyre tyre on either a hooked or hookless rim is going to be the same, assuming the same inner width. If anything a straight inner rim wall is going to force the tyre into a shape it wasnt designed for. Anyone can speculate if that is or isn't something worry about. - Except of course if you can find a tyre that was designed for hookless.


All hookless does for you is exclude you from using any clincher tyre, limit 90% of available TL tyres to 5 bar cos they are not tested and confine you to a small list of tested tyres that may or may not be maintained in the future.


Ppl doesnt know the limitations unless someone tell them, but apparently, doing just that, is taboo around here :-)
So much 'nope' and no desire to address it. Ta ta - have fun shaking your fist at the clouds.
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Old 10-12-20, 07:14 AM
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To the OP's first point if you are running the Mavic UST tire/wheel system you can inflate with a regular floor pump.
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Old 10-13-20, 05:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Captain_Canada View Post
Hi! Question for those that use tubeless:

I've been watching some videos on setting up road tubeless and it looks like a special pump/sudden burst of air is needed to get the sides of the tires to snap in place.

If I get a flat on the road and the sealant doesn't stop the leak, and I have to use an inner tube to get home, could I get the tire to snap in place just with a normal portable mini pump? The wheels will likely be the new giant tubeless hookless ones. how does that work and how hard is it to do?

I have never used tubeless (just clinchers/tubes) so thanks for pointers.
a mini pump should work fine for getting the tires to seat(with a tube), it just might take a long time depending on the pump.

Originally Posted by bruce19 View Post
To the OP's first point if you are running the Mavic UST tire/wheel system you can inflate with a regular floor pump.
This has almost nothing to do with the OP's question.
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Old 10-13-20, 05:42 AM
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Originally Posted by noodle soup View Post
This has almost nothing to do with the OP's question.
Well, it certainly has something to do with his post. ("I've been watching some videos on setting up road tubeless and it looks like a special pump/sudden burst of air is needed to get the sides of the tires to snap in place") I always appreciate it when I get new information here. It's one of the reasons I'm here.
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Old 10-13-20, 05:51 AM
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Originally Posted by bruce19 View Post
Well, it certainly has something to do with his post. ("I've been watching some videos on setting up road tubeless and it looks like a special pump/sudden burst of air is needed to get the sides of the tires to snap in place") I always appreciate it when I get new information here. It's one of the reasons I'm here.
But that wasn't the question he asked.

"If I get a flat on the road and the sealant doesn't stop the leak, and I have to use an inner tube to get home, could I get the tire to snap in place just with a normal portable mini pump?"
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Old 10-13-20, 06:23 AM
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Originally Posted by noodle soup View Post
But that wasn't the question he asked.

"If I get a flat on the road and the sealant doesn't stop the leak, and I have to use an inner tube to get home, could I get the tire to snap in place just with a normal portable mini pump?"
So?
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Old 10-13-20, 07:01 AM
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Originally Posted by bruce19 View Post
It's one of the reasons I'm here.
But evangelizing Mavic UST seems to be the primary reason.
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Old 10-13-20, 08:11 AM
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Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
But evangelizing Mavic UST seems to be the primary reason.
That's a curious and provocative phrase to use. I gave info I thought would be informative to the OP. If the OP doesn't want that info he can say that and I will stop on his posts. No need for the self-appointed forum police to intervene.
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Old 10-13-20, 08:25 AM
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Originally Posted by bruce19 View Post
That's a curious and provocative phrase to use. I gave info I thought would be informative to the OP. If the OP doesn't want that info he can say that and I will stop on his posts. No need for the self-appointed forum police to intervene.
Seemingly every thread that mentions tubeless sees posts from you about Mavic UST. In this thread, the OP asked specifically about Giant hookless, tubeless wheels and addressing a flat in the field with a minipump. You pop up with comments on Mavic and a floor pump.

Really, we get it - if you had a child, their first name would be Mavic and their middle name would be Ust, but that doesn't mean that banging the drum in every tubeless thread, even those specifically about another maker, is relevant.
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Old 10-13-20, 08:35 AM
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Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
Seemingly every thread that mentions tubeless sees posts from you about Mavic UST. In this thread, the OP asked specifically about Giant hookless, tubeless wheels and addressing a flat in the field with a minipump. You pop up with comments on Mavic and a floor pump.

Really, we get it - if you had a child, their first name would be Mavic and their middle name would be Ust, but that doesn't mean that banging the drum in every tubeless thread, even those specifically about another maker, is relevant.
I'm going to say this once more and then I'm done with your judgements and provocations. He made a statement about needing an air canister type pump for tubeless. That is inaccurate. Some do. My experience is with Mavic. They do not. I passed along that info. It was for his benefit. Now I'm done. No one, especially me, wants this to go on.
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Old 10-13-20, 08:40 AM
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Originally Posted by bruce19 View Post
Now I'm done.
See you in the next one.
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Old 10-13-20, 06:56 PM
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Originally Posted by bruce19 View Post
Well, it certainly has something to do with his post. ("I've been watching some videos on setting up road tubeless and it looks like a special pump/sudden burst of air is needed to get the sides of the tires to snap in place") I always appreciate it when I get new information here. It's one of the reasons I'm here.
Maybe I missed something in this thread, so forgive me if I have misunderstood you. But, I hope you understand that your statement (about a sudden burst of air) only applies to setting a tubeless tire up tubeless. When fixing an on-the-road problem by inserting a tube, you mount and inflate the tire just like any other clincher. In other words, a mini-pump will work just fine.
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Old 10-13-20, 07:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Koyote View Post
Maybe I missed something in this thread, so forgive me if I have misunderstood you. But, I hope you understand that your statement (about a sudden burst of air) only applies to setting a tubeless tire up tubeless. When fixing an on-the-road problem by inserting a tube, you mount and inflate the tire just like any other clincher. In other words, a mini-pump will work just fine.
to add to this....

Do investigate a plugger like Dynaplug or the Stans Dart. If the sealant doesn't seal the hole, putting a plug in it will almost always seal it without losing much air let alone enough for the beads to come loose. A touch up with a small frame pump ("mini pump") or CO2 will work great.

I've been riding road tubeless now for about 12 years (much of that on tubeless tubulars) and then or the last 4 on tubeless clinchers. On regular clinchers, I used to get 6-8 flats per season (one about every 500 miles or so). For the last three years, I've not had a single flat - which I find amazing - so it's to the point where I carry a tube just "because" but I'm not sure there is a good reason to do so. I do carry a tube and pump, however, when gravel riding. The freedom from flatting plus the ride quality has been great.

I used to pump my 23mm tires up to 110psi. Now I ride 30c tires and I ride with them at 58psi front and 60psi rear (I'm just under 200lb). That gives me a very plush ride and my average speeds have actually gone up. Silca has a great calculator on their website that accounts for tire size, road surface, rider weight etc.... very well done.

J.
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