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US-Based Teflon PTFE Powder for Mixing with Paraffin - Runway Stands Alone as of Now

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Road Cycling “It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them. Thus you remember them as they actually are, while in a motor car only a high hill impresses you, and you have no such accurate remembrance of country you have driven through as you gain by riding a bicycle.” -- Ernest Hemingway

US-Based Teflon PTFE Powder for Mixing with Paraffin - Runway Stands Alone as of Now

Old 10-12-20, 08:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Ogsarg View Post
Only an issue due to inhalation of fumes from teflon that is heated to a very high temp, which is really bad for any living thing.
When it is bonded to a frying pan.

If it is a powder, it can be inhaled directly.
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Old 10-12-20, 08:19 PM
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I just use paraffin without any magic ingredients, and it has greatly extended the life of my drive-train. I think this is simply because sand isn't sticking to it, rather than any extraordinary property.

My guess is chain lube primarily protects the chain from the environment, and the actual metal-on-metal low friction surfaces are those bonded on during manufacturing. It may help protect those bonded low-friction surfaces from premature erosion.
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Old 10-12-20, 08:24 PM
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If you're curious about PTFE as a chain lube, an easy way to try it is Rock 'n' Roll Absolute Dry. It appears to be nothing but PTFE powder in naphtha as a solvent/carrier that evaporates, leaving only the PTFE. I've used it and R'n'R Gold (same, with a bit of oil for some wet resistance and a bit longer between applicatons). Not bad, cleaner than most conventional wet lubes I've used.

No need to strip the chain of its original lube (unlike the recommended prep for waxing chains, with or without PTFE, moly, etc). Just wipe it clean with a rag or paper towel with some mineral spirits, alcohol, acetone, whatever you have available. If you're really picky, get some cheap cotton swabs (a buck a box of 200-500 at the dollar store) and swab between each link. That will cut back on the grime that invariably accumulates on the chainrings and cogs.

Rock 'n' Roll suggests practically flooding the chain, but I found that to be unnecessary and expensive. I use a needle dropper with R'n'R Gold, and place a drop on roughly every fifth or sixth link. I do that once or twice a week depending on how often I ride. Seems to stay clean and when I've removed the chain (via quick link) to check how each link feels, they all seem to be adequately lubricated.

After Rock 'n' Roll Gold or Absolute Dry carriers evaporate, the chain feels slightly tacky like a Post-It Note but slick.

I got some dry PTFE powder in January, supposedly smaller than 1.7 microns, per the seller (who was probably anticipating customers via the Oz cycling dude's videos). Haven't used it yet in wax. In February I had to empty my apartment for reflooring, misplaced my Little Dipper crock pot for chain waxing, and haven't bothered to dig through every box in the closet to find it. So I've been using Rock 'n' Roll Gold and Absolute Dry all year on my road bikes.

I still use Park CL-1 on my hybrids/errand bike, because it's very resistant to rain and lasts for months between applications. I wipe the chain externally once in awhile with a paper towel and mineral spirits, but that's all. It's also PTFE in a medium weight oil that dries a bit tacky and sticky like motorcycle chain lube. CL-1 ranks so-so on the Friction Facts tests, but it's good enough for my hybrids and I've had the same bottle for five years and it's still half full. I'll consider something "better" after I run out.
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Old 10-12-20, 08:24 PM
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Originally Posted by mattcalifornia View Post
I just use a Park Cyclone chain cleaning gizmo and some Pedro's biodegradable degreaser. It takes a few minutes and is super easy. I'm hoping the bio degreaser is, in fact, not toxic. Somebody please tell me if I should stop using it. I doubt my regimen prolongs chain life, but a clean/lubed drivetrain works better.
I do like a nice slippery chain and I bet yours look a lot better than mine.

I have heard that the biodegradable degreasers are pretty noxious, especially when contaminated with lube, but I live in my own glass house.
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Old 10-12-20, 08:24 PM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by smashndash View Post
I agree with the first point, but Molten speedwax and tons of “dry” lubes are teflon based. Do those all have the environmental problems you speak of?

second point... I think the paraffin flash point is around 400F. So you’d have bigger issues at 570F.

I was thinking more of accidental spill on the stove burner type of event.
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Old 10-12-20, 08:40 PM
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Originally Posted by danallen View Post
I had not considered the environmental impact.


What is the amount of waste put into the environment by a bicycle compared to a home furnace, air conditioner, automobile for home computer? We have a lot of substances in our bodies from the environment. Teflon is inert unless it is heated to over 500 degrees.


What lubrication is better for the environment? How big is the impact?


I am going to evaluate this seriously. Thank you for bringing it up.


Plain old petroleum oils, or paraffin wax does 99% of the job. I use motor oil thinned a bit, which tests very well and is cheap.

It's true that there are lots of sources of toxic and harmful stuff, and it's near impossible to avoid much of it, but I think we need to try to reduce the amount of mess that we're making.

Here's a link to some info.. I've met the woman who started and runs this organization- she is impressive.

https://greensciencepolicy.org/highl...ted-chemicals/
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Old 10-12-20, 09:52 PM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by wgscott View Post
Teflon is extremely toxic to birds.
Good point and thanks for raising it. Please don't Ever lubricate your birds with teflon.
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Old 10-12-20, 10:05 PM
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Originally Posted by woodcraft View Post
It's true that there are lots of sources of toxic and harmful stuff, and it's near impossible to avoid much of it, but I think we need to try to reduce the amount of mess that we're making.
Yeah ..... hmmmm. It is probablye that a lot of people could do a hugely smaller amount of harm by not turning on the AC or heat until their homes got a few degrees hotter or cooler than they now use as a trigger point---a portable fan or a sweater ..... Buy or make one's own bio-friendly cleaning chemicals .... driving cars is damaging from manufacture to disposal, and making both roads and petroleum fuels is constantly destructive.

Get off your computers, too .... not only are we very destructively mining and manufacturing with rare-earth metals, we are using electricity, both at home and to cool massive server farms.

And you know what's the best part? If every citizen cut his/her chemical/carbon/energy footprint in half, industrial pollution would continue to be 90+ percent of the pollution created.

I spent enough years as an environmental activist, doing whatever I could to minimize my impact. I found that everything just kept getting worse.

I do what I can, but I won't hurt myself or constrict my life options to have an infinitesimal difference or none at all.

Have you ever considered the sourcing of the coffee you drink? The enormous environmental damage caused by the factory farms which produce the bacon you love? Yet, Americans have roundly rejected paying more for safe sources, and reject vegetarianism outright.

Pretty sure I am not killing a significantly greater number of fish, birds, or animals based on my choice of chain lubes.
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Old 10-13-20, 09:18 AM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post
Good point and thanks for raising it. Please don't Ever lubricate your birds with teflon.
Similarly, leave your canary at home should you ever enter a coal mine.
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Old 10-13-20, 09:19 AM
  #35  
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Is there any evidence that wax + PTFE is better than wax alone?
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Old 10-13-20, 01:58 PM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by wgscott View Post
Is there any evidence that wax + PTFE is better than wax alone?
Did you read the first post, or watch the Oz cycling video? That's where the claim of major chain wear comes from.

One problem is that few people understand and measure the three types of wear. Most only measure the change in length, which is a change in chain pitch. Even that is often done incorrectly, using some device that adds roller wear to the actual elongation. The second thing to measure is the roller wear. The rollers wear on the OD and ID. I made a gage to slip in between the rollers. It measures about .240 inch and it ever slips between the rollers, the wear is quite large. An autopsy will reveal that most of the wear is on the ID of the roller. The third thing to measure is side clearance. When a chain in new, a feeler gage in the range of .004-.008 inch can be slipped between the inner and outer plates. I've deliberately used a Campy 10 chain for 6,000 miles and found very little elongation, but lots of roller wear and side clearance that was twice that of a new chain. When that chain was replaced with a new one, I got chain skip on the two most worn sprockets. Using a single chain for too long can have expensive consequences. Oz seems to only check elongation, which is a mistake.

I use my own paraffin based liquid lube with about 30% high quality lubricating oil, added to the wax, before it's dissolved in 4-5 parts naphtha (camp stove fuel). Liquid lube takes far less effort and can be reapplied quickly and more frequently, without removing the chain. I relube about every 150 miles and take the chain off for cleaning about every 600 miles. I could easily add PTFE to my lube, but what I use now seems to work quite well and it leaves only minor wax build-up on the sprockets and jockey pulleys. I also use 4 chains in a rotation for each of my two cassettes. Each chain can be used longer and the cassette will last the life of all four chains, since a new chain is never used on a well worn cassette. New-chain skip will never occur.
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Old 10-13-20, 02:59 PM
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Originally Posted by DaveSSS View Post
Did you read the first post, or watch the Oz cycling video? That's where the claim of major chain wear comes from.
I did read the post, but I did not watch the video.

From what I understood in the OP, the claim was that paraffin plus PTFE extends the life of the chain. I personally have had very good luck with just paraffin, so could easily imagine that is where most if not all of the drivetrain life extension comes from.

One problem is that few people understand and measure the three types of wear. Most only measure the change in length, which is a change in chain pitch. Even that is often done incorrectly, using some device that adds roller wear to the actual elongation. The second thing to measure is the roller wear. The rollers wear on the OD and ID. I made a gage to slip in between the rollers. It measures about .240 inch and it ever slips between the rollers, the wear is quite large. An autopsy will reveal that most of the wear is on the ID of the roller. The third thing to measure is side clearance. When a chain in new, a feeler gage in the range of .004-.008 inch can be slipped between the inner and outer plates. I've deliberately used a Campy 10 chain for 6,000 miles and found very little elongation, but lots of roller wear and side clearance that was twice that of a new chain. When that chain was replaced with a new one, I got chain skip on the two most worn sprockets. Using a single chain for too long can have expensive consequences. Oz seems to only check elongation, which is a mistake.

I use my own paraffin based liquid lube with about 30% high quality lubricating oil, added to the wax, before it's dissolved in 4-5 parts naphtha (camp stove fuel). Liquid lube takes far less effort and can be reapplied quickly and more frequently, without removing the chain. I relube about every 150 miles and take the chain off for cleaning about every 600 miles. I could easily add PTFE to my lube, but what I use now seems to work quite well and it leaves only minor wax build-up on the sprockets and jockey pulleys. I also use 4 chains in a rotation for each of my two cassettes. Each chain can be used longer and the cassette will last the life of all four chains, since a new chain is never used on a well worn cassette. New-chain skip will never occur.
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Old 10-13-20, 03:06 PM
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A long time ago when I learned about the roller wear confound with the chain gauge, I checked a series of chains which my Park gauge said were fatootzed, against a ruler. They all made length criterion for the recycle bin too and I went back to just using the gauge. At worst, I figure what I waste in chains, I recoup on cassettes.
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Old 10-13-20, 03:22 PM
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I decided it would ultimately be less expensive to wax and rotate through 3 or 4 chains repeatedly until everything is very obviously totally worn out, and then replace the whole of the drive train (or at least the set of chains and cassette). If the new chain skips on the front ring, you will know you have over-done it, and can replace that. So far, it has only cost me an inner-chainring ($10) once, and I am replacing cassettes far less frequently.
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Old 10-13-20, 03:25 PM
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Originally Posted by wgscott View Post
I did read the post, but I did not watch the video.

From what I understood in the OP, the claim was that paraffin plus PTFE extends the life of the chain. I personally have had very good luck with just paraffin, so could easily imagine that is where most if not all of the drivetrain life extension comes from.
Oz has other videos on chain waxing with plain paraffin. He claims that it's the PTFE that makes the huge improvement. He's not very knowledgeable when it comes to solvents. He tried making a liquid paraffin lube with isopropyl alcohol, which is very wrong. He adds lamp oil to paraffin too, but that's really just a very slow drying solvent.

I'm a mechanical engineer, not a chemist, but I did prove that naphtha will dissolve paraffin at room temperature and remain a liquid, but if too little naphtha is used, it turns into a mush instead of a water-like fluid at temperatures under about 75 degrees. My lube needs to warmed by placing the applicator bottle in hot water for awhile, unless the room temp is high. In a cool room, the chain may also need to be warmed or the lube may solidify before penetrating adequately.
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Old 10-13-20, 03:36 PM
  #41  
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I'm a chemist, but I don't have any deep insight into this. Using paraffin alone seems to work well, at least for me.
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Old 10-13-20, 07:01 PM
  #42  
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I use to use Paraffin wax (without the Slick 50 I spoke of earlier) and I don't think it works as good as the first bike lube that came out called Tri-Flow, some lubes I've tried after that was worse like liquid wax lube made by any manufacture all sucked. The test I always used was chain life, and using paraffin or liquid wax in a bottle the chains only lasted an average of 5,000 miles, with Tri-Flow my chain life went up to about 12,000 miles as it did with other no wax lubes. The best lube in a bottle I've used after 40 some odd years is Rock N Roll Ultimate Dry; I did have to apply it a lot initially, about every 100 miles, but after 6 or 7 applications I now find it doesn't need to be reapplied but every 400 miles maybe, it also stands up to rain which no dry lube I'ver used ever did that! I use Rock N Roll on my road bike but I just started experimenting with Dumonde Tech Lite lube on my touring bike this summer, not sure what to think of it yet, I need more time using it.

The secret to Rock N Roll is to FOLLOW the directions, using the stream method as the company mentions allows the lube to clean the chain, then you run the chain half a dozen time, then wipe the chain like crazy constantly moving the rag to clean area, once the black streaks stop showing you're good to go, then after every ride you wipe it again till the rag is virtually clean, if you don't wipe the chain it will become gummy, but wiping the chain a lot will remove the gummy feeling. Applying the lube a drop on every fifth roller will not clean the chain, it seems wasteful to stream it on, but after a while, you don't have to apply it as often. I started using Rock N Roll when I bought the bike, the chain is the original chain, it has about 8,000 miles on it and is only half worn.

I'm following the directions on the Dumonde lube too, but like I said not sure yet of the long term lasting ability, nor chain life yet since the chain only has about 1,000 miles.
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Old 10-13-20, 10:51 PM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by wgscott View Post
Is there any evidence that wax + PTFE is better than wax alone?
If I'm recalling correctly, Friction Facts or Ceramic Speed updated their tests to include paraffin with PTFE and it tested very highly.

The Oz cyclist dude doesn't actually provide any data in his rather lengthy videos. He's mostly doing fanboy demos of the actual testing work done by Friction Facts/Ceramic Speed. For some reason his videos garnered more attention than the much briefer articles and charts that told me all I needed to know in less than 5 minutes.

But I've never cared for the video or podcast format for "learning." Entertainment, sure. But I've always preferred reading a concise article and maybe a couple of good illustrations for learning something new.
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Old 10-14-20, 05:27 AM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by canklecat View Post
If I'm recalling correctly, Friction Facts or Ceramic Speed updated their tests to include paraffin with PTFE and it tested very highly.

The Oz cyclist dude doesn't actually provide any data in his rather lengthy videos. He's mostly doing fanboy demos of the actual testing work done by Friction Facts/Ceramic Speed. For some reason his videos garnered more attention than the much briefer articles and charts that told me all I needed to know in less than 5 minutes.

But I've never cared for the video or podcast format for "learning." Entertainment, sure. But I've always preferred reading a concise article and maybe a couple of good illustrations for learning something new.
There is this that shows how good paraffin wax is and how PTFE makes everything better. From page 65, it looks like squirt wax works pretty well.
Attached Files
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Old 10-14-20, 05:44 AM
  #45  
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Except for Squirt lube, like all other wax lubes, does not hold up in the rain. If all you ever ride in is dry conditions then it would be great, but where I live in NE Indiana I encounter rain, especially when bike camping; but I'm not going to call it a day because it might rain. The same is true for high humidity, it won't last as long in those conditions.

https://singletrackworld.com/forum/t...er-conditions/

I guess if you're racing and it's going to be dry, or you live in the western states where rain is rare then Squirt would be just fine.
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Old 10-14-20, 05:52 AM
  #46  
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Originally Posted by rekmeyata View Post
Except for Squirt lube, like all other wax lubes, does not hold up in the rain. If all you ever ride in is dry conditions then it would be great, but where I live in NE Indiana I encounter rain, especially when bike camping; but I'm not going to call it a day because it might rain. The same is true for high humidity, it won't last as long in those conditions.

https://singletrackworld.com/forum/t...er-conditions/

I guess if you're racing and it's going to be dry, or you live in the western states where rain is rare then Squirt would be just fine.
Yeah, they mentioned that in the article. What they don't show are the results from a completely cleaned and un-lubed chain, which would be a nice control to see.
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Old 10-14-20, 06:08 AM
  #47  
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Originally Posted by rekmeyata View Post
Except for Squirt lube, like all other wax lubes, does not hold up in the rain.
There are plenty of reasons not to use waxed chains, but not holding up in the rain isn't one of them. A waxed chain will last a 400k in the rain, which is as far as most people ever go in one day. I used a single UltraFast waxed chain on the Iron Porcupine 1200k a few months ago that had a fair amount of rain over the 4 day ride. On multi-day rides, I carry a bottle of squirt to refresh the chain at the overnight and have only had to use it once in four seasons of randonneuring with waxed chains.
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Old 10-14-20, 06:37 AM
  #48  
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Originally Posted by vespasianus View Post

Your chain only lasts 1000 miles?
Guy must be pushing 2000watt all the time. Would love to see his FTP.

Originally Posted by znomit View Post
LBS might be yanking your chain.
LBS could be using it to tow cars off their driveway.

Originally Posted by danallen View Post
How many miles do you get out of chains?

When I got 2,000 miles out of a chain, I was oiling that chain all the time. I guess it needed more frequent cleaning, but the cleaning seems like no match for the amount of black crud that gets into the chain immediately. I was using sythetic motor oil (10%) mixed with mineral spirits (90%). Before that, I used dry lube, but it still got nasty black on any use whatsoever. Was I doing something wrong?
At least 5000? My previous one had 2000miles on it when I sold the bike and it wasn't close to .5 wear. For your info, I am a pretty big buy that can pull heavy watts on climbs; my drivetrain has a rough life. IMO, the key to extend your drivetrain's lifespan is not the lube, it's the preventive maintenance done throughout its life. I lube my chain every week (80-100kms) and completely degrease it every month (400-500kms) by soaking in fuel overnight, then in wd-40 and finally in isopropyl alcohol. Then, I degrease my drivetrain while the chain is out. When I sold the bike, it looked like it was new.

--

To answer OP's initial post, I have full confidence in Oz's research on my end. He's well informed and well experienced.
Regarding the PTFE particle size, he does specify in one of the video that they should be very fine (less than 1.6mU if my memory is good).

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Old 01-21-21, 04:15 AM
  #49  
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Originally Posted by wgscott View Post
When it is bonded to a frying pan.

If it is a powder, it can be inhaled directly.
Since you are a Chemist maybe you can elaborate.

How can you inhale PTFE that is mixed with wax? As you know, we are not dusting the chain with PTFE, we mix it to wax and expect the wax/PTFE mixture will reach the inner parts of the links.

The youtuber who promotes this mixture claims to have used many different mixtures including pure paraffin wax and this one turned out to be the best. he claims that PTFE sticks to the eroded sections/scratches. Idk if it is true.
If there is another comparison between pure paraffin vs paraffin with ptfe I would love to see it. If they are close of course I'd love to use paraffin only.
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Old 12-13-21, 07:42 PM
  #50  
David.MPB
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Originally Posted by DaveSSS View Post

I use my own paraffin based liquid lube with about 30% high quality lubricating oil, added to the wax, before it's dissolved in 4-5 parts naphtha (camp stove fuel). Liquid lube takes far less effort and can be reapplied quickly and more frequently, without removing the chain. I relube about every 150 miles and take the chain off for cleaning about every 600 miles. I could easily add PTFE to my lube, but what I use now seems to work quite well and it leaves only minor wax build-up on the sprockets and jockey pulleys. I also use 4 chains in a rotation for each of my two cassettes. Each chain can be used longer and the cassette will last the life of all four chains, since a new chain is never used on a well worn cassette. New-chain skip will never occur.
As a touring cyclist currently using waxed chains (wax only) Id be interested in a more detailed breakdown of this formula.
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