my58vw

I have been doing research on campy the last few weeks and today I got the oportunity to test ride a 61 cm bike equiped with chorus... While I will not say what I like and do not it has left me with a question. I understand like shimano groups there are various levels, i.e. voloce, centaur, chorus, record, etc. I rode a chorus equiped bike, but without lots of other bikes to compare it too with campy. Now I am considering putting campy on the trek and moving shimano DA over to possibly a giant CF frameset with ritchey components, etc.

Here is the question. For those of you that use campy what is the REAL difference between the groups? I am mainly concerned with the difference between voloce and centaur, but also between centaur and chorus/record. I will have to use record cranks for the length, but the rest is open.

This is not a shimano vs campy thread, or a "Record is better than DA" or cf parts are better than Al. I want opinions from those who have used the parts for the difference.

Thanks as always!

Fox Farm

For component materials, look at the Campy web site for a deailed break down. I ride both Chorus and Record bikes and the big difference is in a minor weight savings with Record. More Ti used in the Ergo levers, more carbon wrap on the deraillures. Actually, the current version of the Chorus group is really the Record group of a few years ago. The Record rear cassettes are considerably more expensive because of the use of titanium. You would be happy with both. If you can find a deal on Record stuff, why not. Otherwise you would be happy with Chorus. The jump down from Chorus to Centaur gains a few grams, uses aluminum levers and derailure bodies, and a heavier cassette (relatively speaking). The big difference in the cassette is that the larger rings are individual rings where as on Record and Chorus the are sort of mono, or whish bone shaped in profile. I actually use the Centaur cassette, not the Chours or Record. The lack of carbon fiber in the Centaur group makes is look more "traditional" Campy with it's highly polished surfaces. Voloce I have little experience with. It's more like the 105 of the Campy group.

Record is for sponsored teams, those with lots of money to spend on their stuff, or for those who spend the time to search the internet bargain deals, such as Ebay, slightly used, etc. BTY, you will get many many years out of your Campy stuff if maintained. 10 years easily. It is also repairable (Ergo lever in particular).

my58vw

I am more concerned for durability than a little weight savings for the trek (the bike weighs 19 pounds right now). If I go record it will end up on the giant... which may not be a bad idea... but

I am concerned about shifting with the lower groups... weight is not an issue to a point...

MerckxMad

Over time, Campy wears in while Shimano wears out. Sorry, couldn't resist. Other than shape of the brifters and weight, there's not much difference between the two group's lowe-end models. Some describe Campy as having a more mechanical feel as compared to Shimano. Also, Campy allows for inline adjustment of the front derailleur. Other than weight and feel, I'm not really sure what sort of opinion you're after.

my58vw

Low end campy vs high end campy... not campy vs shimano.

I.e. how do the low end campy shifters work compared to record or chorus.

Like... sora shifters shift rough, with DA shifters are quick and smooth...

climbo

as you might expect, low end campy - works fine, high end - works great, it just costs a lot more and weighs less.

my58vw

When I went from ultegra 9 to dura ace 10 I immediatly noticed that the shifting was quicker and more percise. Maybe a better question is does the lower end shifters follow the same mechanism to shift or is it like U9 to DA10?

KevinF

I've heard that Centaur-level and below brifters use bushings while Chorus and Record use bearings for the indexing movement. Suppossedly bearings will operate more smoothly and last longers then bushings will. I use 10-speed Centaur on my bike. It shifts so fast on the rear that I've caught myself looking a couple times to verify that it really did shift. In other words, if Record / Chorus shift faster / quieter then Centaur does, then you'd have to be one darn good cyclist to notice or care.

CPcyclist

the disk used for shifting is the same OEM part. As a referance I had a the Mirage group of the mid 90's (record, chorus, daytona/centur, veloce, mirage) it lasted me for ~12yrs before I felt the need to repair/replace the group.

With that said I now have Chorus on my bikes and the parts for repairing the Mirage (all I need to do is replace a spring in each lever, kids are keeping me from taking thing apart.) The chourus shifts better. But think it be like the difference between 105 9spd and DA 9spd. I do not feel you can compair between different spds or chain types, as cogs and chain influence shifting as much as the "gear/disk" in the levers. I have heard of some Campy guys running a Shimano chain as the shifting is "better" because the chain has more lateral give/flex.

The biggest difference is the brifter feel in your hand and styling points (campy has carbon bits). If you have the cash go for 0G brakes very light and will stop you fast.

Wurm

Centaur and lower have bushings in the Ergos, Chorus & Record have bearings. This makes the shifting slightly easier on the upper groups as far as the force needed to swing the thumb & shift levers, but after the Centaur's wear in a bit they're fine. I have a set of '03 Centaur levers and they've been great. I really don't miss my older '00 Record's for that.

I also have an '03 Centaur & '03 Chorus RD, and I can tell a slight difference in the rear cog jumps between them. The Chorus is just a bit snappier than the Centaur, perhaps because I have a Fiberlyte (CF) back plate on the Chorus, and because for '03, the Centaur had a cast body while the Chorus is said to be stiffer with its forged body. I'm not sure if the springs, etc. are different on the Chorus/Record than Centaur and below. However, if you didn't compare the two units with each other and had the Centaur, you wouldn't notice it. And for '04 and newer, the Centaur body is the same as the '03 Chorus, so basically it's a Chorus anyway.

Centaur and lower BB's are 111 mm., above they're 102 mm. Only Centaur can be had in either silver or Century Grey finish, and IMHO the Grey is da bomb if you see it "in-person" installed on a bike.

The brakes have hidden rivets on Chorus/Record, and a single-pivot brake for the rear that's about 35 grams lighter than the front dual-piv.

Cassettes (10sp):

1. All 4 versions use the same steel, ramping, etc., but versions with 18T cogs (11-21 Record and all 13-26's) have the 18T and larger cogs with "C" timing with all smaller cogs having "A" timing. All other cassettes have "A" timing throughout.

2. All 4 levels have 12-25, 13-26, & 13-29, AND
a. Veloce has 12-23 & 14-23 but not 11-21 or 11-23.
b. Record has all above sizes but 14-23.

3. Veloce cogs are all separate. Centaur has the largest pair pinned together, ie- 26/23. Chorus has the largest 2 or 3 pair pinned together, ie- 26/23 & 21/19 & 18/17 or 23/21 & 19/17 on the 11-23. Record has 2 or 3 pair pinned like Chorus, but the largest 4 cogs are ti. Or you can get Record's in all-ti.

Phew! Then there's the hubs...

53-11_alltheway

Centaur shifters are veloce levers with a little hole cut in the paddle. (otherwise identical)

Centaur hubs have the the same bearing/guts as record hubs. Veloce is different though.

Veloce BB is heavier and the Veloce rear derailleur may not be as smooth as the centaur unit (according to Brandford bike)

Wurm

Thanks for doing the hubs, etc. 53. I was getting tired.

EDIT: the newer Chorus/Record RD pulley wheels are supposed to be quieter, but I haven't "heard" them compared to the "older" wheels, so YMMV.

Wildwood 

I've had Veloce 9, Chorus 9, and Centaur 10 - all since 99 but none the same year. Wurm hit the nail on the head -- from my experience Chorus shifts with slightly less effort than Centaur and Veloce (but I did like the solid mechanical feel of a Veloce shift). Brakes I can't tell much difference, but Veloce has new pads.

On the last 2 bikes I upgraded to carbon brifters and I LOVE the feel of carbon.

catatonic

Basically:

brifters: higher end ones use ball bearings (look for the "carbon BB system" logo) The carbon BB logo actually means "carbon "hood body" with ball bearings. My old 2003 chorus brifters I use on my bike has this.

Cranksets: chorus and record use shorter BBs than Centaur and lower....why they did this is beyondd me.

Cassettes: higher end ones have "pinned" larger cogs, using I think a Ti carrier (not certain though, could just be gold-ish aluminum...but why color a hidden part?), while lower end ones use single cogs. Also note that newer cassettes use ramps for shifting, much like shimano HG, while the older ones just use special teeth (actually the reason the new ones are around is the HG patent ran out)

Deraileurs.....weight.

Brakes: high end groupsets hav ethe "differential brakes" where the front is dual-pivot, and the rear single-pivot. Reason for this is weight savings, as well as a reduction in stopping force on the rear wheel....it's pretty nice since it allows for a bit more control when braking on the rear wheel, due to the lower mechanical advantage.

Hubs....beats me, my wheels use veloce hubs, and they seem alright.

Wurm

OK guys - if we're not careful, we might make somebody's head explode!

jit2

"Not necessarly...

For a racer stiffer is generally better... generally. What kind of racing are you doing, crits, rr's, tts, etc? CF may very well be lighter (except possibly with the Cdale but may not be as stiff. It really is a personal preference, I would not ride a carbon fibre bike because of my size and weight. I would go for the R1000 over the trek 2300 though. I have the 2100 and I flex the heck out of the seat stays (carbon), but I am 6'6", 225 pounds and do 90 percent crits. "


Maybe you should make up your mind. Or not give advice on frame materials until you know what you are talking about.

For a noob you love to dispense all of your very limited knowledge and then go against everything that you have previously said.

Why don't you learn how to ride and keep your mouth shut for a change?

catatonic

dude...are you even in the right thread? this is about campy parts, not frames....

I think you need a chill pill or some coffee man...

Wurm

That's putting it bluntly, but yep, mo' miles is the best way to learn no matter what equip you got.

my58vw

What the H3LL are you talking about. I never said what I wanted to use the bike FOR, just I am playing around with ideas. Maybe you should stop assuming and listen to what you just said. I did not say that I was going to still use the trek for crits and "maybe" go with a full carbon frame for longer rides. In that post I said that I would never go for full carbon, and in the case of THAT thread I would not go with carbon because of the stiffness issue FOR CRITS, i.e. I do 90% crits right now.

I have riden 8 full carbon bikes in the last 6 months and have not been happy with any of them for stiffness, but the giant is the closest due to the "compact geometry". I am not going against everything I have previously said, for racing and hard group rides I STILL would not go full carbon. At the time of that post I had just done an extended test on a madone 5.2 and was very very unhappy with the stiffness. I just had the oportunity to ride the giant XL this week and while I had mixed feelings about it then I think it would be a good distance bike.

I more than likely will end up with a Ti bike, but as my rides get longer having a Full CF bike maybe advantages and disadvantages. BTW do you hear me talking about steel - NO - because I have no idea about Reynold's tubing or all that BS. And for those of you who think I know nothing, get your head out of your A$$ and worry about what you know, not about me. I am not a mechanic but in the time I have been riding I know more about some topics that the guys selling bikes at my LBS. How do I learn all this information... because I read, I ask questions, I study, and I listen.

There is a quote - If you had to know how a car worked to be able to drive one, how many people would be driving cars? I am one of the people that knows how a car works, and it is the same way with a bicycle.

On Topic...

Thanks for the replys. From what I gathered on campy's website I really would not have pulled out this information. The information is invaluable.

Wurm

You're welcome.

Since you mention it, why have you considered CF frames to such an extent? I would suggest that you put as much effort into demoing and learning about some of the excellent steel frames on the market, such as those made of Columbus Zona, Life, and Spirit tubing. Weight can be saved in other areas if you're worried about the extra half pound or so of a steel frame. Start here: https://www.columbustubi.com/eng/default.asp?pagina=3_3

With the proper geometry and tubing, you can have a better performing bike in many ways from a steel frame than most CF frames are capable of.

From a Cannondale rep last week, I heard that C'dale's newest all-CF frame - the Synapse - was designed/built with an eye towards emulating as close as possible the ride and handling characteristics of steel. Steel is what they're using as their "reference".

Steel can also be made as stiff as you need it to be. Go look, for example, at Serotta's CXII time-trial frame or Pegoretti's Marcelo, or even Raleigh's '02 and '03 Professional and International frames.

Whatever you do, try to keep an open mind and be sure to try other frame materials and geometries.

53-11_alltheway

Brandford website tells you stuff you'll never find at Campagnolo .

Patriot

I have a new Centaur group on my wifes bike, and a Record group on mine.

The real differance I have noticed is the more durable "feel" of Centaur, since the Centaur has the alloy handles, and a slightly beefier feel when shifting. Both shift beautifully. I would say, my Record group does feel a smidgeon smoother, but almost negligable. As far as actual durability goes, the cf Record group has proven its durability it just has that synthetic feel to it, because it is so light.

Other than that, I honestly don't notice much differance at all when in actual use.

From what I understand, there is very little differance, if any, between Veloce and Centaur. I really think Veloce is likened to Ultegra, and Centaur is like an Ultegra+. Mainly because Centaur has so many gorgeous options. You can get them with alloy cranks, carbon cranks, compact carbon, even annodized gray components, not available in Shimano. I am absolutely smitten with this years Campy Centaur line. They really thought it through when they came out with this line. It is some of the finest on the market, yet still provides tons of options to fit just about anyones personal taste.
I think a nice Trek with a Centaur group is a real statement in class. Kind of reminiscent of the Sarthe.

my58vw

Thanks for the insite ^^^

I like the "real feel" of the DA shifters, kind of like I can push you hard and it will not break. Now I am sure that the Dura Ace stuff will not break but you never really know...

Patriot

I kind of had the opposite feeling when I first started using my Record stuff. I had that, "I hope I don't break this stuff, because it feels so delicate (light)." In reality, I have given it all plenty of abuse, with no problems at all. It just has that feel of "fine art vs. heavy metal". But the strength of Record in use, is surprising once I realized its capabilities.

Serpico

great comments, I am currently deciding between chorus and centaur for my (soon to be built) new bike. from what I understand the only difference between chorus and record brifters is that record has a lighter bolt kit/internal hardware.

the only thing holding me back from chorus is the brifters, I'm afraid they'll feel too "plasticky". I'm sure they're plenty durable, but confidence in the equipment is important to me, even if it's just psychological.

I kinda felt the same way with a carbon fork for the first time, but after a few rides I totally forgot about it. with brifters contacting my hands it will be more tactile (hard to forget).

does anyone still feel like carbon levers are flimsy, or is it just something you noticed at first--does it completely go away? I should probably go to the lbs and standover a chorus/or/record equipped bike and play with the levers.

thanks