Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Road Cycling
Reload this Page >

Electronic Shifting - What's the Point?

Notices
Road Cycling “It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them. Thus you remember them as they actually are, while in a motor car only a high hill impresses you, and you have no such accurate remembrance of country you have driven through as you gain by riding a bicycle.” -- Ernest Hemingway

Electronic Shifting - What's the Point?

Old 10-20-20, 04:45 PM
  #51  
tyrion
Senior Member
 
tyrion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: San Diego, California
Posts: 3,485

Bikes: Breezer Radar

Mentioned: 26 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1880 Post(s)
Liked 1,268 Times in 604 Posts
Gravel Cyclist JOM says he shifts about 3000 times in a Dirty Kanza race and the effort saved by electric shifting is not insignificant.
tyrion is offline  
Old 10-20-20, 05:10 PM
  #52  
sarhog
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Location: Greer, SC
Posts: 213

Bikes: Canyon Grail, Salsa Cutthroat, Santa Cruz Tallboy

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 120 Post(s)
Liked 142 Times in 71 Posts
Originally Posted by tyrion View Post
Gravel Cyclist JOM says he shifts about 3000 times in a Dirty Kanza race and the effort saved by electric shifting is not insignificant.
...and he knows how many times he shifts because the software will tell him after the ride! Add one more benny for electronic group sets.
sarhog is online now  
Old 10-20-20, 06:45 PM
  #53  
Mojo31
...
 
Join Date: Jul 2020
Posts: 3,167
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2523 Post(s)
Liked 1,436 Times in 799 Posts
Originally Posted by vespasianus View Post
No, the next great thing will be bikes that pedal and shift by themselves...


):
That’s pretty much already here in the form of e-bikes.
Mojo31 is offline  
Old 10-20-20, 06:52 PM
  #54  
Bah Humbug
serious cyclist
 
Bah Humbug's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Austin
Posts: 17,468

Bikes: S1, R2, P2

Mentioned: 115 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6902 Post(s)
Liked 2,160 Times in 1,155 Posts
Originally Posted by Kimmo View Post
BTW, folks who sneer at mechanical RED might like to take note of a couple of advantages of electronic listed here: no front trimming and no cable fraying.

You don't need an electronic group to avoid that...
Right; they just cut out the middleman and let the lever itself break in your hand. They also pinky-swear they fixed the front shifting this time, after the double-dog-swear last time.
Bah Humbug is offline  
Likes For Bah Humbug:
Old 10-20-20, 06:58 PM
  #55  
noodle soup
Senior Member
 
noodle soup's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 8,888
Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4672 Post(s)
Liked 1,806 Times in 978 Posts
Originally Posted by bruce19 View Post
How about......how will manufacturers make more profit if people keep buying old stuff that works?
"if people keep buying old stuff that works", the manufacturers actually make more money, because they aren't spending anything on R&D.
noodle soup is offline  
Likes For noodle soup:
Old 10-20-20, 07:00 PM
  #56  
mrblue
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 648

Bikes: Canyon, Bowman & Colnago

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 132 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 39 Times in 20 Posts
Originally Posted by gsa103 View Post
...Looking at the long-term, I fully expect electronic to complete replace mechanical in a few years, except for Campagnolo.
Do you think Campagnolo will allow the EPS 12 speed technology to trickle down to Record and Chorus, or do you think it'll remain exclusive to Super Record? I would assume so, but how long do they typically wait?

Last edited by mrblue; 10-20-20 at 07:08 PM.
mrblue is offline  
Old 10-20-20, 07:00 PM
  #57  
Kimmo 
bike whisperer
 
Kimmo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Melbourne, Oz
Posts: 9,396

Bikes: https://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=152015&p=1404231

Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1369 Post(s)
Liked 601 Times in 424 Posts
Originally Posted by gsa103 View Post
If you look at the rear mech on a Di2 setup, during the initial shift, it moves too far, forcing the shift to occur, pauses for a second or two, then moves the upper pulley directly back inline. That motion path can't be replicated with a standard cable index shifter. You can approximate it by over-pressing the shift lever, but that only works in one direction. The exaggerated motion provides a more consistent shift, and the automatic trim reduces noise and drag.
Actually, overshift to bigger cogs is trivial to implement mechanically; some Ergolevers have it in quite exaggerated form. It's just a bit of float built into the index spring carrier. Had to disable it on a Shimergo bike to get it to play nice with the Shimano drivetrain.

You only need it going to bigger cogs anyway.
Kimmo is offline  
Old 10-20-20, 07:33 PM
  #58  
Ferrouscious 
Some Weirdo
 
Ferrouscious's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Rexburg, ID
Posts: 502

Bikes: '86 Maruishi Excellence, '86 Schwinn Prelude, '88 Cannondale SR2000, '74 C. Itoh "Racer"

Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 222 Post(s)
Liked 141 Times in 92 Posts
What's the point? To reduce the amount of skill required to ride a bike. "What a stupide idea!" you say. No, not at all. Take downtube friction shifters. Can you shift them? I bet you can. Now can you shift in a paceline? In a tight peloton? While out of the saddle? Haha, not so easy! Electronic shifting allows you to shift under higher load and from more locations on the bars. If you don't see the point, you're not pushing your equipment and, more importantly, your skill to the limit. This is "the point" of all new technology. Said the retrogrouch.
__________________
Somewhere, a village is missing its idiot.
Ferrouscious is offline  
Likes For Ferrouscious:
Old 10-20-20, 07:44 PM
  #59  
mrblue
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 648

Bikes: Canyon, Bowman & Colnago

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 132 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 39 Times in 20 Posts
Originally Posted by Ferrouscious View Post
What's the point? To reduce the amount of skill required to ride a bike. "What a stupide idea!" you say. No, not at all. Take downtube friction shifters. Can you shift them? I bet you can. Now can you shift in a paceline? In a tight peloton? While out of the saddle? Haha, not so easy! Electronic shifting allows you to shift under higher load and from more locations on the bars. If you don't see the point, you're not pushing your equipment and, more importantly, your skill to the limit. This is "the point" of all new technology. Said the retrogrouch.
Good point! Kind of like how all the technology we have is supposed to free us from work to focus on other things; give us more time for leisure, like riding bikes. I wish my boss saw it that way instead of seeing all the time I'm saving, by using technology, as a reason to give me more work
mrblue is offline  
Old 10-20-20, 08:52 PM
  #60  
Seattle Forrest
Senior Member
 
Seattle Forrest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 22,130
Mentioned: 78 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 15234 Post(s)
Liked 6,452 Times in 3,651 Posts
Originally Posted by deacon mark View Post
I have 6800 mech and I love it. It does not require any trim adjustment at all in any of the cogs really. It never misses a shift and if it does then I need to start looking at the cable and fraying. I have had it happen twice that I road in the small cog due to rear cable break. That said the bike was still rideable and I came home put new cable on before any electronic would have gotten back battery power. I am not at all against Di2 but right now my 6800 is not broke and I won't fix it. It shifts pretty effortlessly even the front. I have 6700 on my other bike and while is shifts fine it does require a bit more effort.

Like many things on this issue I am not in a hurry but eventually I probably will go to disk brakes. Most of my gripe is in press fit BB and I still find exposed cables much easier to deal with so I in the middle of all this for new technology on bikes.
​​​​​​Ultegra mechanical is really good. It's almost never worth replacing a working group set, Di2 is more of a buying (or building) a new bike anyway thing. And mechanical Ultegra is too good to replace.
Seattle Forrest is offline  
Likes For Seattle Forrest:
Old 10-20-20, 09:39 PM
  #61  
Kimmo 
bike whisperer
 
Kimmo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Melbourne, Oz
Posts: 9,396

Bikes: https://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=152015&p=1404231

Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1369 Post(s)
Liked 601 Times in 424 Posts
Originally Posted by Bah Humbug View Post
Right; they just cut out the middleman and let the lever itself break in your hand. They also pinky-swear they fixed the front shifting this time, after the double-dog-swear last time.
Well, I don't ride a whole lot of miles, but my Yaw FD seems to work just fine. I dunno, maybe my guads aren't massive enough to show up the alleged crapness.

But regardless, props are incontrovertibly due for so elegantly pissing all over the whole concept of FD trimming. If there is indeed much room for improvement of the Yaw FD, it's not a stretch to imagine SRAM will utterly perfect it for the next generation, if the difference between 1st-gen and 2nd-gen is anything to go by.
Kimmo is offline  
Old 10-21-20, 02:25 AM
  #62  
SurferCyclist
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2020
Location: Pembrokeshire, UK
Posts: 79

Bikes: Canyon Endurace CF 9.0 Di2, Cannondale CaaD 8, Diamondback MTB(ancient)

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 36 Post(s)
Liked 67 Times in 22 Posts
Di2 is superb, not tried other electronic gearing. Is it essential? Nope. Is it great? Yes.
Once set up never needs adjusting, super easy shifting, same time every time. Integrated with head unit can see what gear selection is which I find really useful.
As for battery charge issue, only a moron would have a problem with this, it lasts months/1000s of miles per charge and super easy to check level especially if have D-Fly unit connected.

So to sum up, I love it and will definitely have again if I change bike. Is it worth extra money? To me yes to others maybe not but if you can afford it get it.
SurferCyclist is offline  
Likes For SurferCyclist:
Old 10-21-20, 03:49 AM
  #63  
Amt0571
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Catalonia
Posts: 902

Bikes: Canyon Grand Canyon AL SL 8.0, Btwin Ultra 520 AF GF, Dahon Mu P27, Triban Road 7, Benotto 850

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 378 Post(s)
Liked 178 Times in 120 Posts
Originally Posted by Kimmo View Post
That's not the only advantage; unlike mechanical shifting, it stays in tune indefinitely if unmolested. Then there's syncro shifting, along with the ability to reassign buttons at will, at least with E-tube Di2. And it potentially enables a drivetrain setup that would otherwise be too fiddly, ie a half-step triple to provide closer ratios at speed than otherwise available.
My mountain bike mechanical shifters were not touched in the last 5 years and 20.000km. They shift well. That's on a mountain bike, where components suffer a lot more than on the road.

I don't need nor want syncro shift. I can do that manually without thinking. When I change chainrings I mostly always shift the RD to compensate and it's not a big deal. At least for someone who can walk and chew gum at the same time.

BTW, I see lots of people around riding with half-step triples
Amt0571 is offline  
Old 10-21-20, 04:00 AM
  #64  
Amt0571
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Catalonia
Posts: 902

Bikes: Canyon Grand Canyon AL SL 8.0, Btwin Ultra 520 AF GF, Dahon Mu P27, Triban Road 7, Benotto 850

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 378 Post(s)
Liked 178 Times in 120 Posts
Originally Posted by SurferCyclist View Post
As for battery charge issue, only a moron would have a problem with this, it lasts months/1000s of miles per charge and super easy to check level especially if have D-Fly unit connected.
Yes. Probably some moron who never had a Li-Ion battery failure.

Things work great when new. Not so great when they age. And Li-Ion batteries, when they fail, sometimes they don't show a low battery or anything. They just shut down, suddenly.

If that happens with your digital camera it's not a big deal. If that happens in the middle of nowhere while doing a brevet or who knows what, you're in for a lot of fun.

And yes, you can carry a spare to solve that issue. They probably weigh more than the spare cable I carry with me and some people were making fun of.
Amt0571 is offline  
Old 10-21-20, 04:12 AM
  #65  
SurferCyclist
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2020
Location: Pembrokeshire, UK
Posts: 79

Bikes: Canyon Endurace CF 9.0 Di2, Cannondale CaaD 8, Diamondback MTB(ancient)

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 36 Post(s)
Liked 67 Times in 22 Posts
Yes. Probably some moron who never had a Li-Ion battery failure.
I was referring to the many people who over the years have complained that one of THE big problems is the battery "unexpectedly" runs out/goes flat because they didn't charge it and are left stuck in big ring or something rather than a total failure of a battery which is another matter. I've had my Canyon with Di2 for 3 years and not one glitch or anything. If the battery should pack up for any reason then it's a risk I'm willing to take for years of trouble free cycling.
SurferCyclist is offline  
Likes For SurferCyclist:
Old 10-21-20, 04:26 AM
  #66  
Amt0571
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Catalonia
Posts: 902

Bikes: Canyon Grand Canyon AL SL 8.0, Btwin Ultra 520 AF GF, Dahon Mu P27, Triban Road 7, Benotto 850

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 378 Post(s)
Liked 178 Times in 120 Posts
Originally Posted by SurferCyclist View Post
I was referring to the many people who over the years have complained that one of THE big problems is the battery "unexpectedly" runs out/goes flat because they didn't charge it and are left stuck in big ring or something rather than a total failure of a battery which is another matter. I've had my Canyon with Di2 for 3 years and not one glitch or anything. If the battery should pack up for any reason then it's a risk I'm willing to take for years of trouble free cycling.
When a battery is old, it can happen than it runs from apparently full to flat in a few hours instead of 1000 miles or whatever the Di2 battery lasts. Even if you just charged it. Batteries degrade over time.

But that's not the only possible failure. Electrical contacts, when they age, they tend to fail. Anyone who has messed up with old computers has surely encountered issues when a computer doesn't detect a RAM module or a graphics card, and you remove it, mount it again and it works... for a few days / weeks.

Then there's the motors, which will wear down with time / vibration, and you can't see to inspect their current state. Who knows where they're going to fail?

Maybe you replace your bakes on a yearly basis and don't care about that. I tend to keep my bikes for at least 10 years, and I definitely wouldn't like having to call someone to pick me up because a derailleur has gone haywire in the middle of nowhere and I can't climb with whatever gear it has decided to stick to.

I mostly ride alone and like being self-sufficient. I can't account for everything, but I'd like not to introduce additional things that can go irreparably wrong in my rides. It's extremely strange for a mechanical derailleur or shifter to break catastrophically unless you fall and hit them with something.
Amt0571 is offline  
Old 10-21-20, 04:33 AM
  #67  
Kimmo 
bike whisperer
 
Kimmo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Melbourne, Oz
Posts: 9,396

Bikes: https://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=152015&p=1404231

Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1369 Post(s)
Liked 601 Times in 424 Posts
Originally Posted by Amt0571 View Post
I don't need nor want syncro shift. I can do that manually without thinking. When I change chainrings I mostly always shift the RD to compensate and it's not a big deal. At least for someone who can walk and chew gum at the same time.

BTW, I see lots of people around riding with half-step triples
Syncro is the bomb. It just makes sense to outsource such a thing to a microcontroller, no question.

As for half-step triples, you won't see any modern ones until it becomes a thing.

And it will, sure as maths, buddy. It's the last bit of low-hanging efficiency fruit to be had. How long do you reckon they can keep adding cogs to flog a new feature?
Kimmo is offline  
Old 10-21-20, 04:50 AM
  #68  
Amt0571
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Catalonia
Posts: 902

Bikes: Canyon Grand Canyon AL SL 8.0, Btwin Ultra 520 AF GF, Dahon Mu P27, Triban Road 7, Benotto 850

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 378 Post(s)
Liked 178 Times in 120 Posts
Originally Posted by Kimmo View Post
Syncro is the bomb. It just makes sense to outsource such a thing to a microcontroller, no question.

As for half-step triples, you won't see any modern ones until it becomes a thing.

And it will, sure as maths, buddy. It's the last bit of low-hanging efficiency fruit to be had. How long do you reckon they can keep adding cogs to flog a new feature?
Syncro may be the bomb for you. Its a useless gimmick for me. I don't want anyone to shift for me on a bike. Especially on the front. Sometimes I shift one cog to compensate, sometimes I shift two, sometimes I shift none. Syncro can't account for this.

I'll keep waiting for half-step triples which, by the way, could also be done mechanically if they became a thing. Let me doubt though that manufacturers are going to introduce a system that needs more parts and is more complex. Especially considering that the target audience has already gone 1x on MTBs and seems incapable of managing two shifters at once on a road bike.
Amt0571 is offline  
Old 10-21-20, 05:09 AM
  #69  
Branko D
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 404
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 159 Post(s)
Liked 173 Times in 107 Posts
Electronic gearing is pretty cool, really.

It's not cool enough for me to justify the price premium except on a TT bike where being able to shift from both positions is just big and really worth it. I'll be probably getting it when it filters down to 105 & Tiagra level instead of being a premium feature. While mechanical does have a few advantages especially for the mechanically savvy user, the "it just works" functionality of electronic is more valuable for the vast majority of people. Predictably, the future is electronic shifting with only the really cheap stuff being mechanical.
Branko D is offline  
Old 10-21-20, 05:10 AM
  #70  
noodle soup
Senior Member
 
noodle soup's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 8,888
Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4672 Post(s)
Liked 1,806 Times in 978 Posts
Originally Posted by Kimmo View Post
Well, . If there is indeed much room for improvement of the Yaw FD, it's not a stretch to imagine SRAM will utterly perfect it for the next generation, if the difference between 1st-gen and 2nd-gen is anything to go by.
SRAM R&D has had well over a decade to figure out how to make hydraulic brakes work well in 110F heat(unsuccessful), so I have little faith in their problem solving abilities.
noodle soup is offline  
Old 10-21-20, 05:12 AM
  #71  
noodle soup
Senior Member
 
noodle soup's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 8,888
Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4672 Post(s)
Liked 1,806 Times in 978 Posts
Originally Posted by Branko D View Post
Electronic gearing is pretty cool, really.

It's not cool enough for me to justify the price premium except on a TT bike where being able to shift from both positions is just big and really worth it. I'll be probably getting it when it filters down to 105 & Tiagra level instead of being a premium feature. While mechanical does have a few advantages especially for the mechanically savvy user, the "it just works" functionality of electronic is more valuable for the vast majority of people. Predictably, the future is electronic shifting with only the really cheap stuff being mechanical.
Like 105 & Tiagra?
noodle soup is offline  
Old 10-21-20, 05:39 AM
  #72  
vespasianus
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Location: In the south but from North
Posts: 339

Bikes: Turner 5-Spot Burner converted; IBIS Ripley, Specialized Crave, Tommasini Sintesi, Cinelli Superstar

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 161 Post(s)
Liked 150 Times in 76 Posts
Originally Posted by Mojo31 View Post
That’s pretty much already here in the form of e-bikes.
Well, that was the joke of the post...
vespasianus is offline  
Old 10-21-20, 06:08 AM
  #73  
Kimmo 
bike whisperer
 
Kimmo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Melbourne, Oz
Posts: 9,396

Bikes: https://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=152015&p=1404231

Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1369 Post(s)
Liked 601 Times in 424 Posts
Originally Posted by noodle soup View Post
SRAM R&D has had well over a decade to figure out how to make hydraulic brakes work well in 110F heat(unsuccessful), so I have little faith in their problem solving abilities.
You think maybe there might be different folks on brakes and drivetrain? They probably have more than a couple of engineers, right? But only more than a tenth of Shimano's if they're lucky.

Just sayin, Yaw is a sweet innovation. It's one of those things that seem incredibly obvious in hindsight; could've happened in the friction era. Oh, and SRAM was smart to use way more cable pull than Shimano on the back, because a little more shift effort is a pretty good trade for better signal to noise, finer adjustment and no frayed cables.

But do I think they can design a FD cage as well as Shimano? No way. Shimano came out with Hyperglide 30-odd years ago; they're way in front overall.
Kimmo is offline  
Likes For Kimmo:
Old 10-21-20, 06:12 AM
  #74  
Sy Reene
Advocatus Diaboli
 
Sy Reene's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Wherever I am
Posts: 7,345

Bikes: Merlin Cyrene, Nashbar steel CX

Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3921 Post(s)
Liked 966 Times in 646 Posts
Originally Posted by gsa103 View Post
Looking at the long-term, I fully expect electronic to complete replace mechanical in a few years, except for Campagnolo. An electronic derailleur consists of a $5 servo motor and $2 microprocessor, and some buttons. All the complicated stuff is done in software. I expect Shimano can produce a Di2 groupset at lower cost than an equivalent mechanical version.
Agree that electronic should be cheaper than mechanical. However, not sure when or why the bike manufacturers would ever want to acknowledge this in their lineups -- right now, Di2 and eTAP models sit at the top and surely bring in the highest margins. Di2 came out over 10 years ago; there's been plenty of time for Shimano if they wanted to have already released a '105' level Di2 version, while at the same time I'd have to think by now, they've certainly recouped their R&D on electronic shifting (R&D often being the excuse used for why things cost what they cost).
Sy Reene is offline  
Old 10-21-20, 06:32 AM
  #75  
noodle soup
Senior Member
 
noodle soup's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 8,888
Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4672 Post(s)
Liked 1,806 Times in 978 Posts
Originally Posted by Kimmo View Post
You think maybe there might be different folks on brakes and drivetrain? They probably have more than a couple of engineers, right? But only more than a tenth of Shimano's if they're lucky.
It's not a question of the size of their R&D department, it's a question of competence.

I can mod SRAM/Avid hydraulic brakes to allow them to function properly, why not SRAM?
noodle soup is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.