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Electronic Shifting - What's the Point?

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Electronic Shifting - What's the Point?

Old 10-22-20, 08:55 AM
  #126  
mrblue
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Originally Posted by gsa103 View Post
I'm not sure there's even a market for Chorus electronic system. Who would that sell to, given that it would likely be priced above at Force/Ultegra? Basically, the market is someone who wants electronic shifting technology (not a traditionalist), but doesn't want Shimano or SRAM. I suspect the European market may be different, in the US Campagnolo is only for custom bikes.
I disagree with you on this point. That's like saying, "Who would buy Campagnolo Chorus mechanical? It costs twice as much as 105 and 50% more than Ultegra." I think there is enough of a "fanbase" for Campagnolo that if they produced Chorus (or Record) EPS, the fanboys would eat it up. Besides, there are people out there who build up "custom bikes" with electronic shifting, too, who just happen to be very passionate about Campagnolo.

To me, Campagnolo is to bikes what Apple is to computers. The stuff is expensive, it's beautiful to look at and works, for the most part, however it doesn't always play nice with others, parts are expensive and it has a very solid fanbase who drools over anything and everything it puts out. Sure, some of the fans are traditionalists in the sense that all their bikes are Eroica bikes and then there are others who are simply after the exclusivity, the "cool factor," they feel they get with owning a "high end" groupset such as Campagnolo.

Seriously, I know people who are such Campy fanatics that Valentino could roll out a carbon coated alloy turd (which he did, minus the carbon, and he called it Potenza) and they'd stand in line for days to spend a years' salary on it.

Last edited by mrblue; 10-22-20 at 09:22 AM.
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Old 10-22-20, 09:35 AM
  #127  
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Every new technology is always received with resistance by some. I'm sure when pneumatic tires were introduced for cars, some people said "What happens when the tube goes flat and you don't have a pump?" My wooden wheels have worked fine, why should I change?

I got my first Di2 back in December of last year and don't expect I'll ever buy a new bike without electronic shifting again. Ease of shifting, synchro shifting, no cable replacement, etc. A don't expect to ever catch myself with a discharged battery and I'm not worried about it failing and stranding me somewhere. I know that it's possible but probably no more so than being stranded by a mechanical issue.

I had a 3 X 9 105/Ultegra setup before and was perfectly happy with it till I tried Di2. I won't miss anything about it. I also do not miss points and distributors, or carburetors, or downtube shifters
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Old 10-22-20, 10:14 AM
  #128  
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Originally Posted by Ogsarg View Post
Every new technology is always received with resistance by some. I'm sure when pneumatic tires were introduced for cars, some people said "What happens when the tube goes flat and you don't have a pump?" My wooden wheels have worked fine, why should I change?

I got my first Di2 back in December of last year and don't expect I'll ever buy a new bike without electronic shifting again. Ease of shifting, synchro shifting, no cable replacement, etc. A don't expect to ever catch myself with a discharged battery and I'm not worried about it failing and stranding me somewhere. I know that it's possible but probably no more so than being stranded by a mechanical issue.

I had a 3 X 9 105/Ultegra setup before and was perfectly happy with it till I tried Di2. I won't miss anything about it. I also do not miss points and distributors, or carburetors, or downtube shifters
I absolutely get what you are saying. I just find it odd that after the first couple of months of owning the bike with SRAM Force eTap and really enjoying it I suddenly started to automatically gravitate toward my older bikes, with mechanical shifting. I've owned the new bike since April and since June I've pretty much not ridden it. I just prefer the feel of the my old bikes with mechanical shifting I guess.
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Old 10-22-20, 10:27 AM
  #129  
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Originally Posted by mrblue View Post
I just prefer the feel of the my old bikes with mechanical shifting I guess.
Then sell the new bike.

Nothing wrong with liking old school technology. I still have a car with carbs, points, solid lifters, manual shift, crank windows and power NOTHING..
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Old 10-22-20, 10:42 AM
  #130  
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I am trying to think about how many Campy bikes I have seen in the last year or so. I think it is one.
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Old 10-22-20, 11:01 AM
  #131  
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Complaining About Electronic Shifting – What's the Point?
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Old 10-22-20, 11:17 AM
  #132  
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Originally Posted by tomato coupe View Post
Complaining About Electronic Shifting – What's the Point?
none....

If you don't like it, don't use it. ..... mic drop.
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Old 10-22-20, 11:45 AM
  #133  
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Originally Posted by noodle soup View Post
They could easily use a larger radius on the internal shift mechanism, which would reduce the strain on the end of the cable, but this would increase the effort required to shift, and make it shift like SRAM(crap).
Actually, come to think of it, they could increase that radius without increasing effort (if you increase cable pull, you're increasing the amount of cable friction felt, but nothing more, since you're still moving the RD the same distance), by reducing the lever throw so the cable pull is the same.

As for SRAM's crap shifting, I don't feel like it has too much effort, but the Doubletap mechanism definitely has a couple of drawbacks - it's easy to shift to a smaller cog by mistake when you're shagged, which absolutely sucks when it happens. And the shift feel is okay when you're dropping the chain to smaller cogs, but it feels like arse when you're going the other way and you've gotta pull the shift mechanism past that release click.

Escapement mechanisms all feel a bit crap if you ask me, next to Ultrashift, or whatever the original Ergo mechanism is called with the G springs - basically the same deal as a countersprung indexed downtube lever, pretty much the apex of shift feel. Unlike an escapement mechanism, you can feel what the chain is doing when you release the cable as well as pulling it.

Last edited by Kimmo; 10-22-20 at 11:58 AM.
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Old 10-22-20, 11:55 AM
  #134  
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Originally Posted by Kimmo View Post
Actually, come to think of it, they could increase that radius without increasing effort (if you increase cable pull, you're increasing the amount of cable friction felt, but nothing more, since you're still moving the RD the same distance), by reducing the lever throw so the cable pull is the same.
when you decrease the cable pull, there’s less room for error(cable stretch/housing shrinkage).

JMO, but frequent replacement of very inexpensive part, is a fair trade off for smooth and light effort shifting. I suspect that is why Shimano hasn’t redesigned the shifter.
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Old 10-22-20, 12:03 PM
  #135  
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Originally Posted by GlennR View Post
Then sell the new bike.

Nothing wrong with liking old school technology. I still have a car with carbs, points, solid lifters, manual shift, crank windows and power NOTHING..
I'm just about to drop 12k on a car with AWD, turbo, VVT, stuff like electronic brake force distribution and drive by wire and all that jazz...

Bit nervous about all that complexity
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Old 10-22-20, 12:10 PM
  #136  
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Originally Posted by noodle soup View Post
when you decrease the cable pull, there’s less room for error(cable stretch/housing shrinkage).

JMO, but frequent replacement of very inexpensive part, is a fair trade off for smooth and light effort shifting. I suspect that is why Shimano hasn’t redesigned the shifter.
Maybe I wasn't clear - it's possible to increase the diameter on the cable spool without increasing cable pull or shift effort. It's even possible to retain the same lever throw, at the cost of a few grams for a roller and cam or something.

But I seem to recall Shimano's marketing bragging about reduced lever throw, so hey, twofer.
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Old 10-22-20, 12:19 PM
  #137  
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Originally Posted by GlennR View Post
Then sell the new bike.

Nothing wrong with liking old school technology. I still have a car with carbs, points, solid lifters, manual shift, crank windows and power NOTHING..
I think selling the bike at this point is a little extreme. I never said I hated it and/or regretted buying it. Over all, I actually like it and may learn to appreciate all its bells & whistles in the future. Maybe if a long time goes by and I find myself never using it I will revisit the selling option. It's more akin to buying a really cool power tool you've been eyeing at Home Depot, then one day it goes on sale so you jump at it. Then when you get it home, you're scratching your head trying to figure out what to use it on.

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Old 10-22-20, 12:31 PM
  #138  
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A bike with electronic shifting isn't going to have a benefit over another bike that simply is more enjoyable to ride. So one shouldn't just buy a bike to get electronic shifting.
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Old 10-22-20, 02:09 PM
  #139  
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Originally Posted by Kimmo View Post
But I seem to recall Shimano's marketing bragging about reduced lever throw, so hey, twofer.
i never notice a reduction of lever pull, but maybe there is one.
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Old 10-22-20, 02:42 PM
  #140  
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I've ridden a R8000 Di2 bike a little shy of 4000 miles / 350000 ft since this time last year. By now it would be time to replace mechanical cables and housing, as they would need continuous tweaking and the friction would prevent flawless indexing anyway. Perhaps before now even. Di2... haven't even had to adjust it. My experience has truly been set and forget, and I have bikes to ride them, with no real interest in doing an ounce more work than is strictly necessary to keep them rolling and working well. Same with my Canyon, also R8000 Di2; 1500 miles, 125000 ft since May, and zero indexing adjustments. The writing IMO is on the wall, and when the electric stuff shows up at more sensible price points mechanical groupsets will be relegated to retro hipsterdom.
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Old 10-22-20, 02:47 PM
  #141  
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It would be so much easier for people to just say, "I like what I have" rather than trying to come up with reasons why others have to agree with them, or why others' choices are wrong. But then, there would be a lot fewer threads on BF.
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Old 10-22-20, 02:53 PM
  #142  
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Originally Posted by sfrider View Post
I've ridden a R8000 Di2 bike a little shy of 4000 miles / 350000 ft since this time last year. By now it would be time to replace mechanical cables and housing, as they would need continuous tweaking and the friction would prevent flawless indexing anyway. Perhaps before now even. Di2... haven't even had to adjust it. My experience has truly been set and forget, and I have bikes to ride them, with no real interest in doing an ounce more work than is strictly necessary to keep them rolling and working well. Same with my Canyon, also R8000 Di2; 1500 miles, 125000 ft since May, and zero indexing adjustments. The writing IMO is on the wall, and when the electric stuff shows up at more sensible price points mechanical groupsets will be relegated to retro hipsterdom.
Right now the difference is $1000 between R8000 mechanical and electronic, and that's after it's been out for, what 11 years? It's a pretty mature technology at this point.

BUT, I've been wrong before. Who knows? Maybe by the time I get around to buying a FIFTH road bike, they'll have 105 Di2 for only a $500 premium over mechanical. If I'm not living under a bridge eating captured rats, maybe I'll try it.
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Old 10-22-20, 05:20 PM
  #143  
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I do find it amusing that with mechanical systems, especially those you install yourself and have done so for decades, there's a skill set and knowledge that you acquire, which is used semi-frequently by the need to replace cables and re-adjust the system. With Di2 it's install and forget about it as I have with my 3 year old system.

When I started on a ride today, my Garmin would not connect to my Di2 system. I typically have to manually make the BT connection by putting the A Junction into BT discovery mode, it takes a second to do. I pressed today and got zip out of the LED's, so OK, a dead system. I went mt. biking instead and dealt with it after. I then remembered I had removed the bar and stem a few days ago to check the fork, and when I looked, the battery cable had come out of the A Junction. OK, re-plug and good to go, everything shifts fine.. Except no connection to Garmin so BT seems dead. Then I recalled that the BT WU111 system is inline with the battery in the seat tube, so I pulled the seat post, unplugged the battery, waited 5 sec. re-plugged and the BT reset itself and now my Garmin connects. So a different skill set to troubleshoot and one hardly ever used, the system is that reliable.
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Old 10-22-20, 05:32 PM
  #144  
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Originally Posted by Steve B. View Post
I do find it amusing that with mechanical systems, especially those you install yourself and have done so for decades, there's a skill set and knowledge that you acquire, which is used semi-frequently by the need to replace cables and re-adjust the system. With Di2 it's install and forget about it as I have with my 3 year old system.

When I started on a ride today, my Garmin would not connect to my Di2 system. I typically have to manually make the BT connection by putting the A Junction into BT discovery mode, it takes a second to do. I pressed today and got zip out of the LED's, so OK, a dead system. I went mt. biking instead and dealt with it after. I then remembered I had removed the bar and stem a few days ago to check the fork, and when I looked, the battery cable had come out of the A Junction. OK, re-plug and good to go, everything shifts fine.. Except no connection to Garmin so BT seems dead. Then I recalled that the BT WU111 system is inline with the battery in the seat tube, so I pulled the seat post, unplugged the battery, waited 5 sec. re-plugged and the BT reset itself and now my Garmin connects. So a different skill set to troubleshoot and one hardly ever used, the system is that reliable.
A Chemical Engineer, an Electrical Engineer, and a Software Engineer are crossing Death Valley by car. Suddenly the car loses power and slows to a stop. They can't get the engine to start. The Chemical Engineer says, "There must be something wrong with the fuel." The Electrical Engineer says, "Nah. It has to be the ignitions system."

The Software Engineer says, "Let's get of the car and get back in again."
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Old 10-22-20, 06:04 PM
  #145  
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Originally Posted by colnago62 View Post
I am trying to think about how many Campy bikes I have seen in the last year or so. I think it is one.
But what do you see more- Campag equipped bikes or Colnago's?
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Old 10-22-20, 07:15 PM
  #146  
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Originally Posted by mrblue View Post
I think selling the bike at this point is a little extreme. I never said I hated it and/or regretted buying it. Over all, I actually like it and may learn to appreciate all its bells & whistles in the future. Maybe if a long time goes by and I find myself never using it I will revisit the selling option. It's more akin to buying a really cool power tool you've been eyeing at Home Depot, then one day it goes on sale so you jump at it. Then when you get it home, you're scratching your head trying to figure out what to use it on.
The most expensive bike is the one you don't ride.
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Old 10-22-20, 07:18 PM
  #147  
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Originally Posted by Kimmo View Post
I'm just about to drop 12k on a car with AWD, turbo, VVT, stuff like electronic brake force distribution and drive by wire and all that jazz...

Bit nervous about all that complexity
Assuming it's a used car by the cost. you never know how it was taken care of.

I also have a (2) 2018 Subarus and both have EFI, AWD and CVT. I'm just glad it doesn't turn off everytime i stop. I'd be concerned that the starter will go quicker than normal.
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Old 10-22-20, 10:35 PM
  #148  
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Originally Posted by vespasianus View Post
But what do you see more- Campag equipped bikes or Colnago's?
I see Colnago62 everyday.
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Old 10-23-20, 12:02 AM
  #149  
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Originally Posted by Steve B. View Post
When I started on a ride today, my Garmin would not connect to my Di2 system. I typically have to manually make the BT connection by putting the A Junction into BT discovery mode, it takes a second to do. I pressed today and got zip out of the LED's, so OK, a dead system. I went mt. biking instead and dealt with it after.
That's the solution with Di2 when something goes wrong. Hahahaha
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Old 10-23-20, 12:30 AM
  #150  
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Originally Posted by Amt0571 View Post
That's the solution with Di2 when something goes wrong. Hahahaha
Yeah, that’s a big weakness of electronic shifters - they don’t work if you disconnect the battery wire. Luckily, mechanical shifters are foolproof - they continue to work if you disconnect the shift cable. Oh, wait ...
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