Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Road Cycling
Reload this Page >

Slammed vs bent arms

Notices
Road Cycling “It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them. Thus you remember them as they actually are, while in a motor car only a high hill impresses you, and you have no such accurate remembrance of country you have driven through as you gain by riding a bicycle.” -- Ernest Hemingway

Slammed vs bent arms

Old 10-22-20, 11:41 PM
  #26  
colnago62
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 2,104
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 586 Post(s)
Liked 254 Times in 152 Posts
If my stem is too low, it interferes with my ability to see down the road very far.
colnago62 is online now  
Old 10-23-20, 05:54 AM
  #27  
rubiksoval
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Music City, USA
Posts: 3,847

Bikes: Felt AR

Mentioned: 51 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2250 Post(s)
Liked 941 Times in 460 Posts
Originally Posted by chainwhip View Post
I just did an image search to (re)call this pic which helps visualize some options:



upper right corner looks like the aero/comfort winner to me, but variety is good.
If you combine the hand position of top right with the head/back position of bottom right, there's the winner.
rubiksoval is offline  
Likes For rubiksoval:
Old 10-23-20, 06:35 AM
  #28  
Sy Reene
Advocatus Diaboli
 
Sy Reene's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Wherever I am
Posts: 6,332

Bikes: Merlin Cyrene, Nashbar steel CX

Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3235 Post(s)
Liked 547 Times in 395 Posts
Originally Posted by chainwhip View Post
I just did an image search to (re)call this pic which helps visualize some options:

upper right corner looks like the aero/comfort winner to me, but variety is good.
Variety is good. Holding any single one of these positions for approx. 6 hours is pretty impractical. Same reason why riders get off the saddle once in a while.
Sy Reene is offline  
Old 10-23-20, 06:55 AM
  #29  
Trakhak
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Baltimore, MD
Posts: 2,283
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 646 Post(s)
Liked 302 Times in 200 Posts
Originally Posted by phrantic09 View Post
This...

strong core results in negligible weight on arms
Mentions of "core" always raise a red flag for me. As I've always understood and experienced in my riding, if the bike fit is right for the effort level that you're maintaining, there's negligible weight on your arms because your upper body is supported by pedaling effort, and the core isn't involved at all. To put it another way, any energy expended by invoking the use of core muscles is energy that could and should have gone into pedaling.

In fact, in decades of following discussions of bike fit and riding technique, especially for racers, I never came across the term "core" (or any prior variation) until it started popping up in Bike Forums a few years ago. I assume that it's a term used by body builders and gym rats that's been ported over to bike websites because it sounds vaguely hip and lends an air of authority to the rest of the sentence.

The "core" might be of concern to track racers and road sprinters and to those with various physical deficiencies, but I don't see the point of what seem to be incessant mentions of the core whenever threads like this one crop up.
Trakhak is online now  
Likes For Trakhak:
Old 10-23-20, 07:42 AM
  #30  
phrantic09
Fat n slow
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Saratoga, NY
Posts: 945

Bikes: Cervelo R3

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 650 Post(s)
Liked 425 Times in 181 Posts
Originally Posted by Trakhak View Post
Mentions of "core" always raise a red flag for me. As I've always understood and experienced in my riding, if the bike fit is right for the effort level that you're maintaining, there's negligible weight on your arms because your upper body is supported by pedaling effort, and the core isn't involved at all. To put it another way, any energy expended by invoking the use of core muscles is energy that could and should have gone into pedaling.

In fact, in decades of following discussions of bike fit and riding technique, especially for racers, I never came across the term "core" (or any prior variation) until it started popping up in Bike Forums a few years ago. I assume that it's a term used by body builders and gym rats that's been ported over to bike websites because it sounds vaguely hip and lends an air of authority to the rest of the sentence.

The "core" might be of concern to track racers and road sprinters and to those with various physical deficiencies, but I don't see the point of what seem to be incessant mentions of the core whenever threads like this one crop up.
So don’t read it. Core strength is an integral part of overall fitness, it’s not about being “hip” but if you can’t see how it is beneficial, that’s your problem.

Your pejorative use of “gym rats and body builders” displays your clear bias against such forms of exercise and an overall lack of understanding of the benefits of weight training for all sports.
phrantic09 is online now  
Old 10-23-20, 09:28 AM
  #31  
colnago62
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 2,104
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 586 Post(s)
Liked 254 Times in 152 Posts
When I was track sprinting back in the day, I used to call myself a gym rat. The sprint coach for GB calls his sprinters weightlifters who he makes ride bikes to keep them out of the bar. I have also heard
‘bodybuilders who ride bikes occasionally’ to describe sprinters’ 🤣🤣
colnago62 is online now  
Old 10-23-20, 11:37 AM
  #32  
tomato coupe
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,458

Bikes: Colnago, Van Dessel, Factor, Cervelo, Ritchey

Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 874 Post(s)
Liked 959 Times in 419 Posts
Originally Posted by Trakhak View Post
Mentions of "core" always raise a red flag for me...
https://pezcyclingnews.com/latestnew...ore-advantage/
tomato coupe is offline  
Old 10-23-20, 01:16 PM
  #33  
rubiksoval
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Music City, USA
Posts: 3,847

Bikes: Felt AR

Mentioned: 51 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2250 Post(s)
Liked 941 Times in 460 Posts
Originally Posted by phrantic09 View Post
So don’t read it. Core strength is an integral part of overall fitness, it’s not about being “hip” but if you can’t see how it is beneficial, that’s your problem.
Core strength isn't an issue (just like leg strength isn't an issue). If you can haul yourself up and out of a chair and onto a bike, you have sufficient core strength to then ride that bike.

If your bike fit is such that you can't hold a particular position, either changing the position or building up incremental amounts of time holding that position is all that's necessary. The idea that you have to go do core exercises to be able to pedal a bicycle a certain way is misplaced. I don't understand posts that recommend such things for improved performance on the bike and agree with Trakhak.
rubiksoval is offline  
Likes For rubiksoval:
Old 10-23-20, 01:18 PM
  #34  
rubiksoval
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Music City, USA
Posts: 3,847

Bikes: Felt AR

Mentioned: 51 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2250 Post(s)
Liked 941 Times in 460 Posts
Originally Posted by tomato coupe View Post
Ugh. This guy's notion of gaining fitness revolved nearly entirely around banned substances. He has bizarre ideas about a number of things and certainly shouldn't be utilized as a reference for anything like this.
rubiksoval is offline  
Old 10-23-20, 01:22 PM
  #35  
tomato coupe
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,458

Bikes: Colnago, Van Dessel, Factor, Cervelo, Ritchey

Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 874 Post(s)
Liked 959 Times in 419 Posts
Originally Posted by rubiksoval View Post
Ugh. This guy's notion of gaining fitness revolved nearly entirely around banned substances.
What do core exercises have to do with banned substances?
tomato coupe is offline  
Old 10-23-20, 01:52 PM
  #36  
phrantic09
Fat n slow
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Saratoga, NY
Posts: 945

Bikes: Cervelo R3

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 650 Post(s)
Liked 425 Times in 181 Posts
Originally Posted by rubiksoval View Post
Core strength isn't an issue (just like leg strength isn't an issue). If you can haul yourself up and out of a chair and onto a bike, you have sufficient core strength to then ride that bike.

If your bike fit is such that you can't hold a particular position, either changing the position or building up incremental amounts of time holding that position is all that's necessary. The idea that you have to go do core exercises to be able to pedal a bicycle a certain way is misplaced. I don't understand posts that recommend such things for improved performance on the bike and agree with Trakhak.
There is a significant difference between being able to ride a bike and improving performance through strength training. I can say unequivocally that once I started strength training, my performance improved on the same amount of mileage weekly, especially on climbs.

We will have to agree to disagree
phrantic09 is online now  
Old 10-23-20, 02:03 PM
  #37  
rubiksoval
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Music City, USA
Posts: 3,847

Bikes: Felt AR

Mentioned: 51 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2250 Post(s)
Liked 941 Times in 460 Posts
Originally Posted by phrantic09 View Post
There is a significant difference between being able to ride a bike and improving performance through strength training. I can say unequivocally that once I started strength training, my performance improved on the same amount of mileage weekly, especially on climbs.

We will have to agree to disagree
However, you can't say unequivocally that your performance would have increased substantially more had you devoted that time and energy to better on-the-bike training.

Sounds like you were just weak aerobically and most likely could have gotten even stronger training on the climbs using progressive training methodologies.

Cycling is an aerobic sport, not a strength sport. People forget that looking for quick fixes. Weight training isn't a substitute for long-term aerobic training.
rubiksoval is offline  
Old 10-23-20, 02:04 PM
  #38  
rubiksoval
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Music City, USA
Posts: 3,847

Bikes: Felt AR

Mentioned: 51 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2250 Post(s)
Liked 941 Times in 460 Posts
Originally Posted by tomato coupe View Post
What do core exercises have to do with banned substances?
Source credibility and a severe lack thereof when it comes to him.
rubiksoval is offline  
Old 10-23-20, 03:41 PM
  #39  
Carbonfiberboy 
just another gosling
 
Carbonfiberboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Everett, WA
Posts: 16,822

Bikes: CoMo Speedster 2003, Trek 5200, CAAD 9, Fred 2004

Mentioned: 106 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2609 Post(s)
Liked 631 Times in 471 Posts
Originally Posted by Trakhak View Post
Mentions of "core" always raise a red flag for me. As I've always understood and experienced in my riding, if the bike fit is right for the effort level that you're maintaining, there's negligible weight on your arms because your upper body is supported by pedaling effort, and the core isn't involved at all. To put it another way, any energy expended by invoking the use of core muscles is energy that could and should have gone into pedaling.

In fact, in decades of following discussions of bike fit and riding technique, especially for racers, I never came across the term "core" (or any prior variation) until it started popping up in Bike Forums a few years ago. I assume that it's a term used by body builders and gym rats that's been ported over to bike websites because it sounds vaguely hip and lends an air of authority to the rest of the sentence.

The "core" might be of concern to track racers and road sprinters and to those with various physical deficiencies, but I don't see the point of what seem to be incessant mentions of the core whenever threads like this one crop up.
Statics. Ever take Statics? If your arms aren't supporting your torso, your core muscles are. There's a down vector from your torso's CG, so there has to be a torque to generate an equal up vector. When riders talk about "core," what they mostly mean is "back." Abs do get a little work in the average cyclist, mostly when pulling up on pedals, but I never heard a complaint from a cyclist saying that his abs are sore. OTOH complaints about sore backs are legion, and not all of them are from poor fits, rather most are from poor conditioning. One of my little truisms is, "don't worry about your bike fit as much as your fitness." There's a group of cyclists who, just for the fun of it, ride balloon tired single-speeds with cowhorn bars on an annual local double century.

Originally Posted by tomato coupe View Post
Several years ago, I had a situation where, for some reason I forget, I became rather egregiously unfit and tore some back muscles skiing. I went through this book, exercising every day, following its well-laid out progression for a full year. Fixed me right up. From then on, I've done strength work every week except for sometimes mid-summer. No more "core" problems. BTW, I never do sit-ups, crunches, etc., except for this one:
Just one set of of that first thing on dumbbell days, which helps my hip flexors, not really "core."
__________________
Results matter
Carbonfiberboy is online now  
Old 10-23-20, 03:41 PM
  #40  
tomato coupe
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,458

Bikes: Colnago, Van Dessel, Factor, Cervelo, Ritchey

Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 874 Post(s)
Liked 959 Times in 419 Posts
Originally Posted by rubiksoval View Post
Source credibility and a severe lack thereof when it comes to him.
I'm not giving a pass to dopers, but I don't think doping erases their credibility when it comes to the technical aspects of the sport. I certainly would not out-of-hand dismiss training advice from Mr. Armstrong.
tomato coupe is offline  
Old 10-23-20, 04:17 PM
  #41  
phrantic09
Fat n slow
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Saratoga, NY
Posts: 945

Bikes: Cervelo R3

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 650 Post(s)
Liked 425 Times in 181 Posts
Originally Posted by rubiksoval View Post
However, you can't say unequivocally that your performance would have increased substantially more had you devoted that time and energy to better on-the-bike training.

Sounds like you were just weak aerobically and most likely could have gotten even stronger training on the climbs using progressive training methodologies.

Cycling is an aerobic sport, not a strength sport. People forget that looking for quick fixes. Weight training isn't a substitute for long-term aerobic training.
That’s an awful lot of assumptions.but again, agree to disagree
phrantic09 is online now  
Old 10-23-20, 04:48 PM
  #42  
rubiksoval
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Music City, USA
Posts: 3,847

Bikes: Felt AR

Mentioned: 51 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2250 Post(s)
Liked 941 Times in 460 Posts
Originally Posted by phrantic09 View Post
That’s an awful lot of assumptions.but again, agree to disagree
Assumptions predicated on a factual understanding of the limiters of cycling performance?
rubiksoval is offline  
Old 10-23-20, 04:52 PM
  #43  
rubiksoval
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Music City, USA
Posts: 3,847

Bikes: Felt AR

Mentioned: 51 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2250 Post(s)
Liked 941 Times in 460 Posts
Originally Posted by tomato coupe View Post
I'm not giving a pass to dopers, but I don't think doping erases their credibility when it comes to the technical aspects of the sport. I certainly would not out-of-hand dismiss training advice from Mr. Armstrong.
Well, sure it does. Especially when packaged for the masses. Riding a bike fast does not make you an expert on physiology or training. Conversely, being an expert on training does not make you super fast on a bike.

And then:

Originally Posted by rubiksoval
He has bizarre ideas about a number of things and certainly shouldn't be utilized as a reference for anything like this.


Such as:

Using ERG mode on your indoor smart trainer is holding you back.
rubiksoval is offline  
Old 10-23-20, 05:01 PM
  #44  
tomato coupe
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,458

Bikes: Colnago, Van Dessel, Factor, Cervelo, Ritchey

Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 874 Post(s)
Liked 959 Times in 419 Posts
Originally Posted by rubiksoval View Post
Riding a bike fast does not make you an expert on physiology or training. Conversely, being an expert on training does not make you super fast on a bike.
These statements are certainly true, but they apply equally to professional cyclists that dope, and those who don't dope.

"Using ERG mode on your indoor smart trainer is holding you back."

Have you ever met a coach that you agreed with 100% of the time? They all have their own ideas, some a little bit nutty.

Last edited by tomato coupe; 10-23-20 at 05:04 PM.
tomato coupe is offline  
Old 10-23-20, 05:10 PM
  #45  
phrantic09
Fat n slow
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Saratoga, NY
Posts: 945

Bikes: Cervelo R3

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 650 Post(s)
Liked 425 Times in 181 Posts
Originally Posted by rubiksoval View Post
Assumptions predicated on a factual understanding of the limiters of cycling performance?
no, about any existing or lack of aerobic capacity
phrantic09 is online now  
Old 10-23-20, 06:14 PM
  #46  
rubiksoval
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Music City, USA
Posts: 3,847

Bikes: Felt AR

Mentioned: 51 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2250 Post(s)
Liked 941 Times in 460 Posts
Originally Posted by phrantic09 View Post
no, about any existing or lack of aerobic capacity
Ha. You don't lack aerobic capacity? You're not racing the Vuelta now, are you? Primoz?!
rubiksoval is offline  
Old 10-23-20, 06:17 PM
  #47  
rubiksoval
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Music City, USA
Posts: 3,847

Bikes: Felt AR

Mentioned: 51 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2250 Post(s)
Liked 941 Times in 460 Posts
Originally Posted by tomato coupe View Post
These statements are certainly true, but they apply equally to professional cyclists that dope, and those who don't dope.

"Using ERG mode on your indoor smart trainer is holding you back."

Have you ever met a coach that you agreed with 100% of the time? They all have their own ideas, some a little bit nutty.
Sure. Equal application to all. However, if the validity of their ideas rests solely on their own cycling accomplishments, then there's an issue. And when those accomplishments aren't even the result of a great training methodology, but rather illicit doping, then that's a double whammy.

He's a particularly nefarious character however, and pretty downright awful any which way you cut it.

Nope, and I don't propagate and defend their ideas.
rubiksoval is offline  
Old 10-23-20, 06:47 PM
  #48  
tomato coupe
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,458

Bikes: Colnago, Van Dessel, Factor, Cervelo, Ritchey

Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 874 Post(s)
Liked 959 Times in 419 Posts
Originally Posted by rubiksoval View Post
Sure. Equal application to all. However, if the validity of their ideas rests solely on their own cycling accomplishments, then there's an issue. And when those accomplishments aren't even the result of a great training methodology, but rather illicit doping, then that's a double whammy.

He's a particularly nefarious character however, and pretty downright awful any which way you cut it.

Nope, and I don't propagate and defend their ideas.
Okay, but here's a hypothetical question for you: Lance Armstrong is far more nefarious and awful than Danielson. If he wrote a book on training, would you say he lacks credibility because the validity of his ideas rests solely on his cycling accomplishments?
tomato coupe is offline  
Old 10-23-20, 07:27 PM
  #49  
Carbonfiberboy 
just another gosling
 
Carbonfiberboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Everett, WA
Posts: 16,822

Bikes: CoMo Speedster 2003, Trek 5200, CAAD 9, Fred 2004

Mentioned: 106 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2609 Post(s)
Liked 631 Times in 471 Posts
It's easy to say that core is not an issue if one is young (say under 50) and has been riding consistently for many years. If core is not an issue, then why do so many riders complain about sore backs? Danielson's book was of course not written by Danielson, rather by his strength trainer. People do have strength trainers. I don't know if that makes it more or less valid, which depends on one's preconceived notions of what does and doesn't work. IME strength training works when done in a compatible fashion to one's main sport.

Strength training works for any endurance sport. Google "elite marathon strength training", then "elite cycling strength training". There's also this for those interested: Introduction to strength training for the endurance athlete
__________________
Results matter
Carbonfiberboy is online now  
Likes For Carbonfiberboy:
Old 10-23-20, 07:46 PM
  #50  
phrantic09
Fat n slow
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Saratoga, NY
Posts: 945

Bikes: Cervelo R3

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 650 Post(s)
Liked 425 Times in 181 Posts
Originally Posted by rubiksoval View Post
Ha. You don't lack aerobic capacity? You're not racing the Vuelta now, are you? Primoz?!
yah dude, didn’t you know?
phrantic09 is online now  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.