How to not get dropped in the rolling hills
Hi-I need training/workout ideas on how to improve my fitness so that I don't get dropped in rolling hills during our weekend group ride.
We usually start the ride a dozen strong and end the ride about 5-6, the pace is around 21-22mph right now but they say some days it's even faster. My fellow riders are fast and lean athletes ranging from Cat 1-3. I am a 40yo male, 6-4, 80kg, and have an FTP around 4.5w/kg. I have a relatively big engine; I go fast on the flats, climb well in stable gradients, but I don't necessarily do well in punchy hills. I am currently Cat 4. The course is mostly flat to rolling hills ~55mi. The flatter section is earlier where we do a decent rotating paceline but it's the rolling hills thru the end where the ride gets feisty. At the time there's already a decent amount of fatigue in my legs. Then the attacks begin left and right. I can follow the first two or three then I usually get popped. This weekend I realized sometimes I'm too slow to react to attacks even if I hear someone's attacking from behind and I let them create a gap. My question is what are the workouts that I should be looking at in the winter? Should I try to replicate those efforts in my solo training rides or just stick to my current plan and wait for things to improve? Or should be doing longer endurance rides? I acknowledge everyone has their strengths and weaknesses but I believe there's always room for improvement. Am I hopeless? I welcome everyone's experience and ideas on this very important matter. Thank you! |
I would do some hill repeats that simulates the amount of time the hill requires to get over ( I assuming they are short climbs ). I would do them in my VO2 max zone minimal recovery.
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I used to do a ride like that, but never had your ambition. I was pretty happy to finish with the second group.
I imagine the answer will involve intervals. Good luck. |
If your FTP is 360 and you have trouble on rolling hills, well, that's one hell of a group!
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If you're a Cat 4 with a 4.5 w/kg ftp (at 360w +!) , then it may not be your fitness holding you back.
I've raced elite national championships with less w/kg than that. |
Your rides sounds a lot like the the rides I did this past summer. From my own experience, I found that when I started doing longer endurance rides, like we're talking about 140 to 200 km rides, and sometimes over 200, my fitness improved a lot on the shorter 90 km rides with this group. I didn't experience the leg fatigue, and was able to push harder later. However, if you don't have the time to do longer rides during the winter, I imagine doing some longer hill repeats would be beneficial.
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You training rides need to be harder than your group rides. And you need to do 2 or 3 solo training rides for every group ride/week.
Or find a slower group. But don't forget things like staying aero if you are doing 15 to 20 or more mph up a hill. I still have a bad habit of sitting up while climbing at speed. But I'm getting better. If you have developed into a spinner going up hills, don't forget to shift to a higher gear occasionally to see if your legs have gotten stronger and can spin a higher ratio at the same cadence. That might save you some energy in the long haul. |
Originally Posted by Bah Humbug
(Post 21782650)
If your FTP is 360 and you have trouble on rolling hills, well, that's one hell of a group!
|
Originally Posted by rower2cyclist
(Post 21782621)
Hi-I need training/workout ideas on how to improve my fitness so that I don't get dropped in rolling hills during our weekend group ride.
We usually start the ride a dozen strong and end the ride about 5-6, the pace is around 21-22mph right now but they say some days it's even faster. My fellow riders are fast and lean athletes ranging from Cat 1-3. I am a 40yo male, 6-4, 80kg, and have an FTP around 4.5w/kg. I have a relatively big engine; I go fast on the flats, climb well in stable gradients, but I don't necessarily do well in punchy hills. I am currently Cat 4. The course is mostly flat to rolling hills ~55mi. The flatter section is earlier where we do a decent rotating paceline but it's the rolling hills thru the end where the ride gets feisty. At the time there's already a decent amount of fatigue in my legs. Then the attacks begin left and right. I can follow the first two or three then I usually get popped. This weekend I realized sometimes I'm too slow to react to attacks even if I hear someone's attacking from behind and I let them create a gap. My question is what are the workouts that I should be looking at in the winter? Should I try to replicate those efforts in my solo training rides or just stick to my current plan and wait for things to improve? Or should be doing longer endurance rides? I acknowledge everyone has their strengths and weaknesses but I believe there's always room for improvement. Am I hopeless? I welcome everyone's experience and ideas on this very important matter. Thank you! |
Long endurance rides and max effort hills. I liked to do 4-6 X 8', max sustainable effort. One of those a week, the rest long endurance. My guess is that much of the issue is positioning. By now you know who likes to play. Try harder to know where they are. You want to be on their wheel, staying out of the wind.
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Originally Posted by rower2cyclist
(Post 21782621)
... Then the attacks begin left and right. I can follow the first two or three then I usually get popped.
The other approach is to limit the demands during these bursts. Without observing you riding there's no way of knowing if or how you could ride in the group with lower power, but you can think about ways of lowering how much power it takes to stay with the group during your rides. |
Hire a coach. There's more to riding fast than just putting out watts, especially in a group.
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Originally Posted by Bah Humbug
(Post 21782650)
If your FTP is 360 and you have trouble on rolling hills, well, that's one hell of a group!
Originally Posted by rubiksoval
(Post 21782668)
If you're a Cat 4 with a 4.5 w/kg ftp (at 360w +!) , then it may not be your fitness holding you back.
I've raced elite national championships with less w/kg than that.
Originally Posted by mcours2006
(Post 21782683)
Your rides sounds a lot like the the rides I did this past summer. From my own experience, I found that when I started doing longer endurance rides, like we're talking about 140 to 200 km rides, and sometimes over 200, my fitness improved a lot on the shorter 90 km rides with this group. I didn't experience the leg fatigue, and was able to push harder later. However, if you don't have the time to do longer rides during the winter, I imagine doing some longer hill repeats would be beneficial.
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Originally Posted by caloso
(Post 21782759)
Since we all have a different idea of what constitutes "rolling hills" how long of an effort are we talking about?
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...048a0fb5c6.png |
Originally Posted by rower2cyclist
(Post 21782993)
<snip>I wish I could do these very long base miles. But that's close to impossible with two toddlers, job, life etc. Will definitely add longer hill repeats to my workout rotation.
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With some simple changes to the way you ride, you can make it up hills a lot faster while fatiguing less. As long as you focus on these two simple points, you will find your riding style begin to change.
Remember to always keep your back straight. I see tons of tons of bikers every single day riding with a horrifyingly slouched back. This simple point alone will help you keep your body tight, resulting in better power transfer do some basic full body strengthening workouts. You can do bodyweight, light dumbbells, resistance bands, or whatever you have laying around your house. Remember to keep everything nice and tight - your back, abs, legs, shoulders pinned back, etc. By scooting my ass back and focusing on involving my glutes/hamstrings more (by simply squeezing my butt and using your core as a stabilizer) I am able to transfer a lot more power to the ground. My most helpful suggestion would be to do basic full body/core strengthening workouts off the bike best of luck |
Originally Posted by cubewheels
(Post 21783134)
Aero still matters a lot in rolling hills like these. Aero will help you build more momentum on the way down and carry it farther uphill.
Get slammed down on the bike. If uncomfortable in a fully slammed down position, you need to train in it, unless the position causes bigger problems. |
Originally Posted by rower2cyclist
(Post 21783019)
This is about 21 miles long and I rode it a bit less than an hour. The gradient and length vary but to give you an idea there are a few of them ~0.3-0.5%mi around 7-9% with maxing around low teens. Maybe my definition of rolling hills is a bit liberal.
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...048a0fb5c6.png |
Originally Posted by rower2cyclist
(Post 21782993)
Thank you. I wish I could do these very long base miles. But that's close to impossible with two toddlers, job, life etc. Will definitely add longer hill repeats to my workout rotation.
If you really want to improve, you need more time for training. But I would be the last person to suggest that you should neglect your childcare duties to do more training. In a few years, your kids will be older and will require less of your time. You'll still be pretty young by my standards, and you can really dedicate yourself to training. That's my $0.02. |
Originally Posted by cubewheels
(Post 21783134)
Aero still matters a lot in rolling hills like these. Aero will help you build more momentum on the way down and carry it farther uphill.
Get slammed down on the bike. If uncomfortable in a fully slammed down position, you need to train in it, unless the position causes bigger problems. |
Learn to quit working so hard prior to the rolling hills part of the ride.
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Originally Posted by LAJ
(Post 21783275)
Learn to quit working so hard prior to the rolling hills part of the ride.
As I've aged, and am still trying to occasionally ride with faster people, I've learned to spend more time drafting when possible. It makes those climbs somewhat more feasible. |
Originally Posted by Bah Humbug
(Post 21782650)
If your FTP is 360 and you have trouble on rolling hills, well, that's one hell of a group!
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