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DA12 coming some details

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DA12 coming some details

Old 11-20-20, 10:11 AM
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popeye
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DA12 coming some details

I'm not a fan of more batteries and I'm not short of gears but progress is coming.
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Old 11-20-20, 10:13 AM
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Originally Posted by popeye View Post
I'm not a fan of more batteries and I'm not short of gears but progress is coming.
Details?
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Old 11-20-20, 10:28 AM
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Originally Posted by datlas View Post
Details?
OOOpsie
https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/new...tents-suggest/
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Old 11-20-20, 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by popeye View Post
Those patents were reported several months ago, I think.

It's possible that's the future but I would not bet the farm on it. Stay tuned.
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Old 11-20-20, 10:44 AM
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And patents often aren’t reflected in the immediately-next product.
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Old 11-20-20, 11:06 AM
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The one thing I would bet on is that DA rim brakes stick around for a while longer. I actually expect that Ultegra/105 will drop rim brakes before DA. Disc brakes are going to need a bit more interchangeability and standardization before a team is going to stake a TdF win on disc brakes. If your team isn't trying to win the TdF then disc brakes are fine. The GC contenders are going to very hesitant to risk a flat to neutral service when the race is on.
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Old 11-20-20, 11:15 AM
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Originally Posted by gsa103 View Post
The one thing I would bet on is that DA rim brakes stick around for a while longer. I actually expect that Ultegra/105 will drop rim brakes before DA. Disc brakes are going to need a bit more interchangeability and standardization before a team is going to stake a TdF win on disc brakes. If your team isn't trying to win the TdF then disc brakes are fine. The GC contenders are going to very hesitant to risk a flat to neutral service when the race is on.
12 of the stages in the 2020TdF were won on discs and 9 on rim brakes. A majority of the Pro Tour teams are running discs so the transition is underway.
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Old 11-20-20, 11:36 AM
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Originally Posted by velopig View Post
12 of the stages in the 2020TdF were won on discs and 9 on rim brakes. A majority of the Pro Tour teams are running discs so the transition is underway.
I suspect that was the sponsors choice.
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Old 11-20-20, 11:52 AM
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Originally Posted by velopig View Post
12 of the stages in the 2020TdF were won on discs and 9 on rim brakes. A majority of the Pro Tour teams are running discs so the transition is underway.
Originally Posted by popeye View Post
I suspect that was the sponsors choice.
It doesn't matter whose choice it is. It's happening.
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Old 11-20-20, 11:52 AM
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Originally Posted by velopig View Post
12 of the stages in the 2020TdF were won on discs and 9 on rim brakes. A majority of the Pro Tour teams are running discs so the transition is underway.
Yep, that was all the teams that didn't have GC contenders. All the GC contenders were on rim brakes for any of the critical stages. It's happening, but it'll still be a few years. For the other teams, if you have to wait five minutes for a team car, that's fine, you're just finishing with the groupetto.
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Old 11-20-20, 12:17 PM
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Originally Posted by gsa103 View Post
Yep, that was all the teams that didn't have GC contenders. All the GC contenders were on rim brakes for any of the critical stages. It's happening, but it'll still be a few years. For the other teams, if you have to wait five minutes for a team car, that's fine, you're just finishing with the groupetto.
The wait time for a team car is the same whether you're using disc brakes or rim brakes.
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Old 11-20-20, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by gsa103 View Post
All the GC contenders were on rim brakes for any of the critical stages.
Richie Porte, Mikel Landa, Julian Alaphilippe, Thibaut Pinot, Miguel Lopez, Daniel Martinez, Nairo Quintana.
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Old 11-20-20, 12:33 PM
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Originally Posted by tomato coupe View Post
The wait time for a team car is the same whether you're using disc brakes or rim brakes.
Itís likelier needed with discs, though, than when you could easily grab just about any random wheel.

Iíll likely never buy another rim brake bike, but Iím not exactly happy about it, and the ďitís comingĒ diktat is about as welcome as any other industry-forced change.
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Old 11-20-20, 12:37 PM
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Making assumptions based on a patent or patent application is not a good idea. Companies apply for patents on lots of things that never make it into a product.
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Old 11-20-20, 12:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Bah Humbug View Post
Itís likelier needed with discs, though, than when you could easily grab just about any random wheel.
From whom (who?) do these pros grab these random wheels?
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Old 11-20-20, 12:56 PM
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Originally Posted by tomato coupe View Post
From whom (who?) do these pros grab these random wheels?
Neutral service, which may be closer than the team car. I suspect you know this and just enjoy being argumentative.
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Old 11-20-20, 01:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Bah Humbug View Post
Neutral service, which may be closer than the team car. I suspect you know this and just enjoy being argumentative.
Mavic neutral support cars carry disc brake wheels.
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Old 11-20-20, 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Bah Humbug View Post
Iíll likely never buy another rim brake bike, but Iím not exactly happy about it, and the ďitís comingĒ diktat is about as welcome as any other industry-forced change.
Frankly, I don't really buy the notion that it's an "industry forced change." I mean, it may eventually be that for some, but it's not the case right now and I don't buy it for the market as a whole. It wasn't like BOOM - rim brakes are gone and discs are all you can get.

It's probably safe assume that bike companies are still trying to sell as many bikes as they can and, if they noticed an unmet demand for rim brake models, they'd step it up. Disc brake models were slowly rolled out over the course of years and, if buyer were tepid about adopting discs, I think that would have been reflected in stock manufactured the following years. As it is, we seem to get more disc options every year and fewer rim options every year; That leads me to assume that the market as a whole has embraced discs or, at the very least, they're in no way a deal-breaker. Anecdotally, of the people that I ride with, all but two or three have already gone disc and wouldn't go back to rim. Of those that haven't transitioned, well, they just haven't bought anything recently; none has cited discs as a reason for holding out nor have they purchased a new bike with rim brakes.
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Old 11-20-20, 03:22 PM
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Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
Frankly, I don't really buy the notion that it's an "industry forced change." I mean, it may eventually be that for some, but it's not the case right now and I don't buy it for the market as a whole. It wasn't like BOOM - rim brakes are gone and discs are all you can get.

It's probably safe assume that bike companies are still trying to sell as many bikes as they can and, if they noticed an unmet demand for rim brake models, they'd step it up. Disc brake models were slowly rolled out over the course of years and, if buyer were tepid about adopting discs, I think that would have been reflected in stock manufactured the following years. As it is, we seem to get more disc options every year and fewer rim options every year; That leads me to assume that the market as a whole has embraced discs or, at the very least, they're in no way a deal-breaker. Anecdotally, of the people that I ride with, all but two or three have already gone disc and wouldn't go back to rim. Of those that haven't transitioned, well, they just haven't bought anything recently; none has cited discs as a reason for holding out nor have they purchased a new bike with rim brakes.
It is a self-fulfilling prophecy; bikes purchased will largely reflect bikes produced (especially this year). Over on ST the bike shop owners were gleefully hammering anyone who expressed doubt, and the mockery in general from the disc converts to those of us quite ok with rim (including you) makes me want to spit acid. You may not buy it; I won't buy the inverse.

The logic elsewhere goes:

1 discs are better, even the pros switched
2 not all
1 they'll be forced to because the manufacturers will make them
2 why? to make more money?
1 because discs are better, even the pros switched

Beautiful circular logic. Meanwhile, it chucks all my bikes into doubt as far as upgrade potential, and the mockery from the faithful continues.

I'm not really concerned with the anecdotes from your local group; the pattern absolutely means that bikes from a few years ago are probably rim, and the bikes since are probably disc. That's the switching timeframe.

And every mention of discs follows this same pattern, with the faithful quite happy to tell the doubtful to get on board and wondering why it's contentious.
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Old 11-20-20, 03:30 PM
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Originally Posted by tomato coupe View Post
Mavic neutral support cars carry disc brake wheels.
The real issue is the service motos, which only carry wheels. They only have a finite number of wheels, and rim wheels are very standard. With disc you have to make sure it has the right thru-axle, disc diameter, and even then the disc to caliper distance can be off. There are some rules about the support motos carrying wheels to match the top GC, but it may only be the top 1 or 2. In the early mountains, the main GC contenders are usually several places down, but only 10s back.
On the narrow mountain roads, the cars get trapped behind tail of the main group, so only the motos will be up with the top 5. Getting a wheel from a moto is the difference between losing a minute and loosing 5 minutes.

If you're a TdF contending team, you're talking about risking the entire GC on not getting a flat in the mountains. That's a big risk, with basically no benefit. If you have the option of rim brakes, teams will continue to use them.
Next year will be an interesting test. Jumbo-Visma is switching to Scott and the Addict and Foil are both disc only. So Roglic will be discs. Ineos will still likely be on rim brakes, as will UAE.
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Old 11-20-20, 03:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Bah Humbug View Post
It is a self-fulfilling prophecy; bikes purchased will largely reflect bikes produced (especially this year). Over on ST the bike shop owners were gleefully hammering anyone who expressed doubt, and the mockery in general from the disc converts to those of us quite ok with rim (including you) makes me want to spit acid. You may not buy it; I won't buy the inverse.

The logic elsewhere goes:

1 discs are better, even the pros switched
2 not all
1 they'll be forced to because the manufacturers will make them
2 why? to make more money?
1 because discs are better, even the pros switched

Beautiful circular logic. Meanwhile, it chucks all my bikes into doubt as far as upgrade potential, and the mockery from the faithful continues.

I'm not really concerned with the anecdotes from your local group; the pattern absolutely means that bikes from a few years ago are probably rim, and the bikes since are probably disc. That's the switching timeframe.

And every mention of discs follows this same pattern, with the faithful quite happy to tell the doubtful to get on board and wondering why it's contentious.
I don't believe that I've ever (non-playfully) mocked someone about discs (or tubes, or radar, etc, etc), If people want what they want, go for it - it doesn't bother me none (just don't tell me why *my* choices and preferences are wrong). And yes, as a market, it's self-fulfilling - companies are making them because (I'm assuming) buyers want them (or at least don't object to them). That's my main point - if you want to dub it a "market forced change," I'll totally co-sign, but I don't see it as an "industry forced change."
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Old 11-20-20, 03:37 PM
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Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
That's my main point - if you want to dub it a "market forced change," I'll totally co-sign, but I don't see it as an "industry forced change."
And my point is no, I fully disagree on that. Enough of the market may have gone along to enable it, but I don't believe for one second the market wanted disc brakes. The industry did, on the other hand, have an opportunity to raise prices and induce more people to have more work done at the shop. Totally weird how that worked out.
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Old 11-20-20, 03:54 PM
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Originally Posted by gsa103 View Post
The real issue is the service motos, which only carry wheels. They only have a finite number of wheels, and rim wheels are very standard. With disc you have to make sure it has the right thru-axle, disc diameter, and even then the disc to caliper distance can be off.
The motos can carry both disc and rim brake wheels, and they have standardized on the most common disc and thru axle sizes. Teams know what sizes to use if they want to take advantage of neutral support.
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Old 11-20-20, 04:48 PM
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Old news.
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Old 11-20-20, 05:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Bah Humbug View Post
And my point is no, I fully disagree on that. Enough of the market may have gone along to enable it, but I don't believe for one second the market wanted disc brakes. The industry did, on the other hand, have an opportunity to raise prices and induce more people to have more work done at the shop. Totally weird how that worked out.
You don't believe that the market wanted disc brakes, but I look at it from the other direction - it's pretty obvious that the market isn't wedded to rims. Whether that was because of a want for discs or because of an indifference, I don't know... but I don't know that it matters.

While I don't presume to speak for the market, or even the majority of it, I certainly wanted discs. After I got the gravel bike (with discs, obv) it was a done deal - I put road tires/wheels on it and my rim brake bike didn't see the pavement again until it was being test ridden by a prospective Craigslist buyer a year and a half later. The two bikes purchased since have been disc - I wouldn't consider otherwise. And yeah, it's hearsay, but I've heard similar stories quite a lot.

Oh, and discs are totally not hard to work on. On the whole, they need much less intervention than rim.
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