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Not Junk Anymore

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Not Junk Anymore

Old 12-23-20, 08:51 PM
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Not Junk Anymore

A lot of what I have been reading and watching about training has been talking a lot about base training and its importance to overall preparation for more intensity later in the season. I guess those junk miles were not that junk after all.
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Old 12-23-20, 09:00 PM
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Base training has never been about riding "junk" miles.
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Old 12-23-20, 10:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Koyote
Base training has never been about riding "junk" miles.
It seems that what many have called junk miles; low intensity riding, is of more benefit than some thought. Chad and Dylan on their respective channels have both made strong cases for this type of training even on low volume programs.
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Old 12-24-20, 05:21 AM
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Old 12-24-20, 05:22 AM
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Old 12-24-20, 06:31 AM
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Originally Posted by colnago62
A lot of what I have been reading and watching about training has been talking a lot about base training and it’s importance to overall preparation for more intensity later in the season. I guess those junk miles were not that junk after all.
Base is anything you've done to improve aerobic conditioning. It takes years to build.

There's some antiquated notion that base training means riding slowly for long periods of time. That couldn't be further from the truth.

Riding slow all the time just trains you to ride slow all the time.

In periodized training, there's more focus on strength and endurance in winter, but that doesn't mean rolling around in your little ring all day pretending that you're training.

You can go out at a solid endurance pace for three to four hours and feel pretty done-in by the end of it. That's proper training. Or you can go out and soft-pedal and coast for half of that time (what most seem to do), and that's as junk as you can get.
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Old 12-24-20, 06:38 AM
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Here's your spot https://www.bikeforums.net/training-nutrition/
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Old 12-24-20, 08:01 AM
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Originally Posted by rubiksoval
Base is anything you've done to improve aerobic conditioning. It takes years to build.

There's some antiquated notion that base training means riding slowly for long periods of time. That couldn't be further from the truth.

Riding slow all the time just trains you to ride slow all the time.

In periodized training, there's more focus on strength and endurance in winter, but that doesn't mean rolling around in your little ring all day pretending that you're training.

You can go out at a solid endurance pace for three to four hours and feel pretty done-in by the end of it. That's proper training. Or you can go out and soft-pedal and coast for half of that time (what most seem to do), and that's as junk as you can get.
"LSD" is best thought of as "Long Steady Distance" rather than "Long Slow Distance."

And again, base training has long been a "thing." It's not some new discovery.
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Old 12-24-20, 08:17 AM
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Originally Posted by rubiksoval
Base is anything you've done to improve aerobic conditioning. It takes years to build.

There's some antiquated notion that base training means riding slowly for long periods of time. That couldn't be further from the truth.

Riding slow all the time just trains you to ride slow all the time.

In periodized training, there's more focus on strength and endurance in winter, but that doesn't mean rolling around in your little ring all day pretending that you're training.

You can go out at a solid endurance pace for three to four hours and feel pretty done-in by the end of it. That's proper training. Or you can go out and soft-pedal and coast for half of that time (what most seem to do), and that's as junk as you can get.
I agree: No one who has an FTP under 4 W/kg and rides in hilly terrain, has limited time, or lacks the patience of Job, can possibly do the low-intensity stuff as prescribed, and also, personally, because we who are trying to hold onto speed in our 60s need to focus relentlessy on the high end.

Last edited by MoAlpha; 12-24-20 at 08:33 AM.
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Old 12-24-20, 09:10 AM
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Caveat: I have no expertise in the subject and am only relating what has worked for me. Until COVID I would ride a couple days a week (20-30 mi) on my own and do some longer (50-65 mi) rides with my club on Saturday. This year, because of COVID, I ride with my GF or alone. Because of that my pace is more HIIT-like and my rides are all 15-35 miles. As a result (?) I am climbing better than I have in 15 years, I feel stronger and I set a PR for a 1 mile flat at 25 mph. This at age 74 when I should be getting slower. Or so I am told. In my youth playing football and baseball in college I was a sprinter not a distance guy. Very much not a distance guy. I think a lot of that was due to genetic makeup and I'm starting to think that translates to the bike even as I age. Wondering if anyone here has had a similar experience. Oh, I also lost 15 lbs without dieting which I have never been able to do before.
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Old 12-24-20, 09:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Koyote
"LSD" is best thought of as "Long Steady Distance" rather than "Long Slow Distance."

And again, base training has long been a "thing." It's not some new discovery.
Ask 99 people what they think LSD stands for (in a training context) and they're not going to say steady, though yes, I completely agree with that particular concept (but certainly not that a block of training should consist solely of that).

In periodization (which most anyone talking about "base" is actually referring to), it is general fitness.

An aerobic "base" is something built on years of work. It's not something you do in the winter time that magically goes away over the course of a season only to be rebuilt the following year. Hence, fitness progression and the ability to tolerate higher workloads each successive year.

It's also the reason why people who have trained and raced for years can regain and maintain fitness much more quickly and easily compared to those that haven't.

I can take six months off, ride for a week, and ride with any group ride in the area (and drop most people). Not because I had one week of "base training", but because I have a 15 year base that provides a large amount of residual ability.
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Old 12-24-20, 09:44 AM
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Originally Posted by rubiksoval
Ask 99 people what they think LSD stands for (in a training context) and they're not going to say steady, though yes, I completely agree with that particular concept (but certainly not that a block of training should consist solely of that).

In periodization (which most anyone talking about "base" is actually referring to), it is general fitness.

An aerobic "base" is something built on years of work. It's not something you do in the winter time that magically goes away over the course of a season only to be rebuilt the following year. Hence, fitness progression and the ability to tolerate higher workloads each successive year.

It's also the reason why people who have trained and raced for years can regain and maintain fitness much more quickly and easily compared to those that haven't.

I can take six months off, ride for a week, and ride with any group ride in the area (and drop most people). Not because I had one week of "base training", but because I have a 15 year base that provides a large amount of residual ability.
Yep, yep, and yep.
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Old 12-30-20, 09:30 AM
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Originally Posted by colnago62
It seems that what many have called junk miles; low intensity riding, is of more benefit than some thought. Chad and Dylan on their respective channels have both made strong cases for this type of training even on low volume programs.
Can you post a link? I see a lot of conflicting guidance, and would like to see what they say.
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Old 12-30-20, 09:32 AM
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Originally Posted by rubiksoval
Ask 99 people what they think LSD stands for (in a training context) and they're not going to say steady, though yes, I completely agree with that particular concept (but certainly not that a block of training should consist solely of that).

In periodization (which most anyone talking about "base" is actually referring to), it is general fitness.

An aerobic "base" is something built on years of work. It's not something you do in the winter time that magically goes away over the course of a season only to be rebuilt the following year. Hence, fitness progression and the ability to tolerate higher workloads each successive year.

It's also the reason why people who have trained and raced for years can regain and maintain fitness much more quickly and easily compared to those that haven't.I can take six months off, ride for a week, and ride with any group ride in the area (and drop most people). Not because I had one week of "base training", but because I have a 15 year base that provides a large amount of residual ability.
Throw around the term LSD at the office, and it may get you fired.
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Old 12-30-20, 10:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Het Volk
Can you post a link? I see a lot of conflicting guidance, and would like to see what they say.

Chad Timmerman puts together the training plans for Trainer Road. You will have to watch the podcasts to find the information as he has not done a video specifically on this subject to my knowledge.
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Old 12-30-20, 10:59 AM
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I guess you could call me a Junk Collector as most of my rides are in the moderate pace endurance category. Nothing better than a steady paced long day on the bike for me.
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Old 12-30-20, 04:24 PM
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Who knew that ride more means you end up riding faster. I think obviously, there is a point where you go so slow as to not warrant a response.

It is why my general rule....when in the flats, ride naturally. Hit a hill, and charge away.
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Old 01-02-21, 11:31 PM
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Riding 2.5-3 hours in steady upper Z2 without taking a break is not something that is "easy" - you dont get tired, your legs dont get lactic burn and your HR doesnt go up, but it definitely requires focus to ensure that your legs dont ease up and start taking micro-breaks. As said, if you ride upper Z2 for a bit, recovery pace for a bit, coast a bit, etc, you arent providing enough of a maintained training load on the legs to cause significant adaptation - especially if you are a somewhat experienced rider.
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Old 01-03-21, 08:30 AM
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Originally Posted by guadzilla
Riding 2.5-3 hours in steady upper Z2 without taking a break is not something that is "easy" - you dont get tired, your legs dont get lactic burn and your HR doesnt go up, but it definitely requires focus to ensure that your legs dont ease up and start taking micro-breaks. As said, if you ride upper Z2 for a bit, recovery pace for a bit, coast a bit, etc, you arent providing enough of a maintained training load on the legs to cause significant adaptation - especially if you are a somewhat experienced rider.
I don’t thing too many people would consider that junk. My HR definitely climbs during the rare Z2 erg session when I can park my aching ass for that long. If nothing else, the sweat loss causes enough volume reduction to drive an increase.
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Old 01-03-21, 08:52 AM
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Originally Posted by MoAlpha
I don’t thing too many people would consider that junk. My HR definitely climbs during the rare Z2 erg session when I can park my aching ass for that long. If nothing else, the sweat loss causes enough volume reduction to drive an increase.
Dial it back and drink more until there's no drift. I usually ride indoors at ~58 with a 24" box fan 4' away. Doing base, I drink about 1/2 bottle an hour and HR doesn't come up in 2 hours unless my power is too high. On the usual 5-7 zone distribution, the top of power zone 2 is too high for base. Try 2/3 of the way up it. The top is like when you're on the road, you don't want to go over that - it's not supposed to be the average. OTOH, if that's what you're doing, do a lot more of it.

I know - unasked for advice and all that, but I can't help myself.
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Old 01-03-21, 09:26 AM
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One of the criticisms that Dylan brings up in his video and I have heard others say is that there is a tendency for some cyclists to go too hard on endurance and recovery days and then not go hard enough on hard days.
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Old 01-03-21, 10:18 AM
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Originally Posted by colnago62
One of the criticisms that Dylan brings up in his video and I have heard others say is that there is a tendency for some cyclists to go too hard on endurance and recovery days and then not go hard enough on hard days.
But who cares? If you're not training to a specific goal, then it doesn't really matter. Besides, that's been said for multiple decades, way before the whole time-crunched, SST, polarized fads came around.

Plus, polarized training has got to be the single most misunderstood and halfhazardly thrown around training concept of the last few years. It just isn't applicable to most everyone that isn't riding huge amounts, and nearly everyone that espouses it gets the entire concept wrong.
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Old 01-03-21, 10:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy
Dial it back and drink more until there's no drift. I usually ride indoors at ~58 with a 24" box fan 4' away. Doing base, I drink about 1/2 bottle an hour and HR doesn't come up in 2 hours unless my power is too high. On the usual 5-7 zone distribution, the top of power zone 2 is too high for base. Try 2/3 of the way up it. The top is like when you're on the road, you don't want to go over that - it's not supposed to be the average. OTOH, if that's what you're doing, do a lot more of it.

I know - unasked for advice and all that, but I can't help myself.
If I drink a lot with my old mans bladder, Im off the bike peeing every 20 min and I believe some volume loss during exercise is normal and unpreventable. Agree about the zones in principle.
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Old 01-03-21, 11:15 AM
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Originally Posted by rubiksoval
But who cares? If you're not training to a specific goal, then it doesn't really matter. Besides, that's been said for multiple decades, way before the whole time-crunched, SST, polarized fads came around.

Plus, polarized training has got to be the single most misunderstood and halfhazardly thrown around training concept of the last few years. It just isn't applicable to most everyone that isn't riding huge amounts, and nearly everyone that espouses it gets the entire concept wrong.
I first heard about the concept from a coach who spent time working with with Charlie Walsh back in the late 80s so yes it had been around awhile. It is information that could be useful to some and not for others. Dylan does seem to be a credible source. At the very least, his opinions looked to be backed up with data.
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Old 01-03-21, 11:36 AM
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Originally Posted by MoAlpha
If I drink a lot with my old mans bladder, Im off the bike peeing every 20 min and I believe some volume loss during exercise is normal and unpreventable. Agree about the zones in principle.
That's interesting. I've never weighed myself naked before and after. Drinking like 1/2 bottle/hour, this geezer still has trouble making it 2 roller hours without peeing, which says to me that I'm plenty hydrated. There is some water lost when glycogen is burned, IIRC 3/4 of its weight is water, but one isn't supposed to be burning that much glycogen when riding mid zone 2. So I don't know, but in any case, my HR doesn't rise more than 1-2 beats, if at all, at the very end of 2 hours of that. I did many hours of that to get that result.
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