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-   -   Larger tire for front? (https://www.bikeforums.net/road-cycling/1220169-larger-tire-front.html)

woodcraft 12-26-20 11:35 AM

Interrupting this fascinating discussion to respond to the OP:

That will work fine- go for it.

asgelle 12-26-20 12:09 PM


Originally Posted by RChung (Post 21849059)
I'm pretty unreliable, and an example of low quality data. ... Better to start with this and also the Marginal Gains podcast episode #2, for the 4 minutes from about 25:55 to 29:50.

And this is why I included you in the first place.

tomato coupe 12-26-20 12:14 PM


Originally Posted by 79pmooney (Post 21848166)
(I'm betting that in 10 years pressures will be back up some and the fat road tire craze will have died down.)

Probably true. The pendulum may have swung from people running super skinny tires at ridiculously high pressures to running overly-wide tires at too low of pressure.

BiciMan 12-26-20 12:14 PM


Originally Posted by paulriccio (Post 21848147)
Short version. I have an old bike I make pretty ridable! It originally had 23mm tires and I wanted something bigger because the roads in the northeast are just awful. 25 will fit in the back and I can do a 28 in the front. I figure that may help with the impact of long stretches of road I cannot avoid.

Is that bad? I was going to run both at a slightly lower pressure since I am not too worries about speed.

Sure, that's fine. Just make sure the pressure is above the lower limit, and you'll probably have to check the pressure and pump-up more often to ensure you're at your preferred and safe level. You're saying "slightly lower pressure" and you understand the speed relationship, so you should be fine. BTW, 28s are the narrowest tires I've purchased since 2015, and I find that ideal for my road bikes.

tomato coupe 12-26-20 12:15 PM


Originally Posted by RChung (Post 21849059)
I'm pretty unreliable, and an example of low quality data. Tom collects much better data than I, damn him, and Josh too. Better to start with this and also the Marginal Gains podcast episode #2, for the 4 minutes from about 25:55 to 29:50. [Edited to add:] The entire podcast is worth listening to but those 4 minutes kinda cover the "how do we know" bit.

Yeah, it's a good podcast. I think the most important point they make is that choosing the right pressure is an optimization problem that depends on several factors. Both "lower pressure is faster" and yesterday's "higher pressure is faster" are oversimplifications.

79pmooney 12-26-20 12:19 PM


Originally Posted by Litespud (Post 21848695)
We shouldn't talk about tire width in isolation, though. All things being equal, a narrower tire might be more aero, but coupled with a wider rim and the smoother transition from tire to rim, might the wider tire have an aero advantage over a narrower tire? Not claiming one way or the other, just throwing it out there.

Aerodynamic drag is dependent on the frontal area times the coefficient of drag (CD), a dimensionless number that reflects how streamlined the cross sectional shape is. (In clean air, so the front wheel in front of and below the fork. Behind, everything gets messed up.) One of the things that has happened in recent years is that as tires and rims got wider hence aerodynamically slower, wind tunnel and computer modeling stepped up to improve the CD and keep the Area (a) X CD constant.. In fact, so much work has been done that the CDs are now low enough that the aCD is actually lower than the skinnier wheels of 15 years ago.

But, it is aCD, not just CD that rules. If we return to narrower tires and rims but use the same shapes and therefore the same CDs of the new stuff, the aCD lowers by the amount the area lowers. And as a (sometimes very nice) by-product, when we have to ride those aero wheels in crosswinds, the "lift" (ie the force making for a wild ride) scales just like the drag does. Go to a 15% skinnier wheel of the same cross section and you get to ride with 15% less cross-wind effect as well as 15% less wind drag.

And to rolling resistance - at racing speed and good tires, rolling resistance is a small part of the total drag. Good tires are good. Even off optimum width good tires are good. Small differences of small numbers really don't matter very much. Look how many races are won on less than the best rolling resistance tires. The best clinchers outroll the best tubulars. Most of the World Tour races are won on tubulars. World Tour time trials - they line up with skinnier tires even though they are paying a price in rolling resistance.

Now, if you are slow, aero means little and rolling resistance is a far greater percent of total drag. (Comparison of drag changes between 18 mph and 25 mph - for rolling resistance: 18 mph has 72% of the drag of 25 mph. For wind resistance, that number is 52%. So at 18 mph, rolling resistance is 39% more important relative to wind resistance at 18 mph than 25 mph. But, for us slowpokes, there is still the matter of wind. A 20 mph headwind is a 35 mph wind to our bikes if we are going 15 mph. And if it is from the side, that skinnier wheel could be a real blessing.

BiciMan 12-26-20 12:54 PM

In the spirit of the holidays and consideration of holiday treats, remember that serious aerodynamic Drag is especially a function of your real own weight and frontal area.

asgelle 12-26-20 12:57 PM


Originally Posted by 79pmooney (Post 21849232)
But, it is aCD, not just CD that rules. If we return to narrower tires and rims but use the same shapes and therefore the same CDs of the new stuff, the aCD lowers by the amount the area lowers.

But when we go back to skinnier tires we have to increase the pressure to avoid pinch flats and rim damage. If this means going past the break point where the tire no longer rolls smoothly over the road surface, rolling resistance increases dramatically. This can offset the very minor decrease in frontal area from a narrower tire.

For example comparing a 28mm tire at 90 psi to a 23 at 110, the change in area (Cd constant as you say):
A(28) = (0.635+0.056)*0.028 = 0.019348 m^2
A(23) = (0.635+0.046)*0.023 = 0.015364 m^2
Delta = 0.003984 m^2
From https://blog.silca.cc/asymmetric-eff...e-optimization using 25mm to illustrate impedance
Crr(28) 0.0058 -> Crr(23) 0.0063
Then from analyticcycling.com using defaults except 0 slope, Crr as above, and adjusting CdA for the decrease -
28 mm tire - 24.562 mph
23 mm tire - 24.539 mph

tomato coupe 12-26-20 01:07 PM


Originally Posted by asgelle (Post 21849288)
But when we go back to skinnier tires we have to increase the pressure to avoid pinch flats and rim damage. If this means going past the break point where the tire no longer rolls smoothly over the road surface, rolling resistance increases dramatically.

Sure, but you don't usually have to go past the break point to avoid pinch flats.

HTupolev 12-26-20 01:09 PM


Originally Posted by 79pmooney (Post 21849232)
And to rolling resistance - at racing speed and good tires, rolling resistance is a small part of the total drag.

So is the aerodynamic drag from the wheel, in the context of the total resistance on the bike+rider system.

RChung 12-26-20 02:20 PM


Originally Posted by asgelle (Post 21849214)
And this is why I included you in the first place.

Josh's episode with Tom really goes into the history of the experiments and what he was thinking at the time. It's pretty fun to listen to.

Carbonfiberboy 12-26-20 04:42 PM


Originally Posted by RChung (Post 21849059)
I'm pretty unreliable, and an example of low quality data. Tom collects much better data than I, damn him, and Josh too. Better to start with this and also the Marginal Gains podcast episode #2, for the 4 minutes from about 25:55 to 29:50. [Edited to add:] The entire podcast is worth listening to but those 4 minutes kinda cover the "how do we know" bit.

I was hoping someone would link to the Silca data. I and most of the folks I ride with have known for a long time that optimal pressure depends on surface texture. I've heard of optimal CX pressures as low as 18 psi, on tubulars of course.

Optimal pressure also depends on the compliance of the tire. Back in the day, I rode Vredestein Tricomp 23mm at 140 psi. Max sidewall pressure was 175. I was fast for my ability. There's an anecdote that goes with this. A fellow rider, shorter than I and weighing about the same could never stay with me on descents on smooth asphalt. I told him to get Tricomps. He did better but still couldn't keep up. I said pump 'em to 140. Next ride he dropped me.

Then for almost a decade, I only rode outdoors on the tandem with my wife. Finally I got my carbon single out again and of course it needed new tires. I put on 23mm Conti 4000IIs and pumped them to 120. The ride was unbelievably harsh. I finally settled on 80 front, 100 rear, and the ride is still harsher than with my Tricomps at 140. All that said, I agree with the Silca results for smooth asphalt and my Contis, though I'm surprised the breakpoint is so high. I suppose I should pump my 23mm Contis higher and just put up with the vibration. Going off their 25mm data, that'd be 121 lbs. for chipseal. I don't know if I'd like that, but the data rules, right?

RChung 12-26-20 05:08 PM


Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy (Post 21849562)
I don't know if I'd like that, but the data rules, right?

I think you should do whatever makes you least comfortable.

tomato coupe 12-26-20 06:33 PM


Originally Posted by RChung (Post 21849582)
I think you should do whatever makes you least comfortable.

To live is to suffer ...

Carbonfiberboy 12-26-20 06:52 PM


Originally Posted by RChung (Post 21849582)
I think you should do whatever makes you least comfortable.

I think that absolutely nails it as far as data on tire pressure vs. performance goes. Hear, hear. I like to keep it just below the pain threshold. That's actually not a joke. You wanna go fast, it's gonna hurt, though I mean the effort, not the road vibration.

rsbob 12-31-20 11:18 PM

Always thought cycling, unless you are a pure noodler, involves a certain degree of suffering. Suffering is life and some of us just do more life than others.

Edit: Contrarians need not reply because you know you are right.

diphthong 12-31-20 11:31 PM

biggest pita is carrying two different sizes of inner tubes if you're not tubeless.


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