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Tubeless... Is that all?

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Road Cycling ďIt is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them. Thus you remember them as they actually are, while in a motor car only a high hill impresses you, and you have no such accurate remembrance of country you have driven through as you gain by riding a bicycle.Ē -- Ernest Hemingway

Tubeless... Is that all?

Old 01-28-21, 03:22 PM
  #126  
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Originally Posted by Psimet2001
How does one learn to breathe?

Don't know if I can talk you through it but in essence you HAVE to get both beads into the depth of the center channel and you have to use a tubeless tape as a super thin rim strip. You can't use velox or even one of our old style nylon rim strips. Then you work it around like normal. I didn't say I never use a lever. Using a lever is not cheating. I just have a tendancy to be able to put on tires without levers that others have been struggling with even though they are using levers. In most cases a lever used once or twice in the last 6-8 inches of mounting the tire is usually all it takes. Use a good lever you feel comfortable with. I have changed over the years but right now I just use pedros levers. They work. I also have a box full of levers I keep on the work bench as they all have different useful shapes.
This may not be true of most bf posters, but, in my experience, many cyclists are unfamiliar with the grip and posture that provides the good leverage for mounting a tough tire bead. You know, with the wheel jammed against your midsection, arms extended, hands about 10 and 2 o'clock, palms rolling the last section of bead onto and over the rim. Once someone taught that to me, my life got easier.
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Old 01-28-21, 03:25 PM
  #127  
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Originally Posted by Koyote
This may not be true of most bf posters, but, in my experience, many cyclists are unfamiliar with the grip and posture that provides the good leverage for mounting a tough tire bead. You know, with the wheel jammed against your midsection, arms extended, hands about 10 and 2 o'clock, palms rolling the last section of bead onto and over the rim. Once someone taught that to me, my life got easier.
Even better

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Old 01-28-21, 03:29 PM
  #128  
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Originally Posted by Psimet2001
But then, how would I get that nice dirty smudge on my shirt, right over my belly button?
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Old 01-29-21, 08:50 AM
  #129  
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I think part of the difficulty people have mounting tires is due to the fact that modern tires resists flats so much better than say 20 years ago. Most people just donít get the practice needed to be good at changing tires. I still ride tubes and canít remember the last time I had a flat.
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Old 01-29-21, 10:27 AM
  #130  
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Originally Posted by Psimet2001
Understood. My comment is geared more towards anyone arguing about pressure who hasn't taken the time to check the accuracy of the gauges they are using.
Not sure it makes a big difference.
Anyway, I think the pressure inside the tire is different compared with the measurements, because a part of it is lost in the process. For example, if I re-connect the same pump immediately after I inflate a tire, the pressure is visible lower than what I input there. That is because a small part is lost when I disconnect the pump, and another one is lost when I reconnect it. I can hear it for a fraction of second during operation, but that fraction means something for the small quantity of air in a narrow 23 mm tire.
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Old 01-29-21, 10:36 AM
  #131  
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Originally Posted by Psimet2001
I'm sure it's handy, but it seems a little spendy for what it is. I love buying new tools, but I'll pass on that one.
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Old 01-29-21, 11:27 AM
  #132  
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Originally Posted by noodle soup
I'm sure it's handy, but it seems a little spendy for what it is. I love buying new tools, but I'll pass on that one.
I've had it since it came out and it's soooooooo good. For as many tires as I changed this year....

Definitely needs some revisions. I covered some with Park at CABDA last year. At first they did their typical snobby bike industry thing of, "well you just don't know how to use it." until I let them show me everything in their way then pointed out the issues that are brought up. They then looked shocked they hadn't thought about that and pulled out a notebook. I ended with a "I can see how you might not think that's a big thing but most of the bikes we still service are old so...I'll just machine my own adapters. Still haven't seen any of those revisions made though.

The need to double the thickness of the QR shim, attach short handles to both sides of each TA adapter to allow for tool free tightening that is effective and have a QR adapter that is one sided just like the TA's are.

I do cassette service, rotor mounting, tire/tube swaps, tubeless setups, etc on it. I also have some scars from walking into those adapters hanging out there.

EDIT: I wouldn't buy it at the retail price but really it's meant for shops and the wholesale price justifies itself fairly quickly with increased throughput time on basic service in the shop setting.
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Old 01-29-21, 11:29 AM
  #133  
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Originally Posted by colnago62
I still ride tubes and canít remember the last time I had a flat.
^ - so much this. That's why my first question to every client thinking about trying road tubeless is, "when was your last flat?"
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Old 01-29-21, 11:42 AM
  #134  
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Originally Posted by Psimet2001
I've had it since it came out and it's soooooooo good. For as many tires as I changed this year....

I do cassette service, rotor mounting, tire/tube swaps, tubeless setups, etc on it. I also have some scars from walking into those adapters hanging out there.

EDIT: I wouldn't buy it at the retail price but really it's meant for shops and the wholesale price justifies itself fairly quickly with increased throughput time on basic service in the shop setting.
$65 is no big deal, but when I first looked at your link, I thought I saw Backcountry/competitive cyclist selling it for $185(not $105).

I need more coffee.
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Old 01-29-21, 11:53 AM
  #135  
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Originally Posted by Psimet2001
^ - so much this. That's why my first question to every client thinking about trying road tubeless is, "when was your last flat?"
I haven't gone gooey yet and get more flats now than I did in the '70s from thorns (that weren't prevalent in New England), tire wires (that didn't exist yet) and construction staples. For every new building I used to ride past, now it's a dozen.

That said and to this topic, my next tire change is going to be in the opposite direction. More tubes! Two per wheel. Dress suit and underwear. Sewups!

Edit: that Park tool likes interesting. I don't need it but what a treat! And I like the clean available access to the mounting bolt heads. I could just drill the 4 holes in my workbench and install T-nuts on the underside. (Surface stays bare wood for woodworking. Only permanent tools on it are the drill press and all-important bench vise. (Bought my first house so I could have one. Apartments and bench vises don't work well together.)

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Old 01-29-21, 12:45 PM
  #136  
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Originally Posted by 79pmooney
I haven't gone gooey yet and get more flats now than I did in the '70s from thorns (that weren't prevalent in New England), tire wires (that didn't exist yet) and construction staples. For every new building I used to ride past, now it's a dozen.

That said and to this topic, my next tire change is going to be in the opposite direction. More tubes! Two per wheel. Dress suit and underwear. Sewups!

Edit: that Park tool likes interesting. I don't need it but what a treat! And I like the clean available access to the mounting bolt heads. I could just drill the 4 holes in my workbench and install T-nuts on the underside. (Surface stays bare wood for woodworking. Only permanent tools on it are the drill press and all-important bench vise. (Bought my first house so I could have one. Apartments and bench vises don't work well together.)
Yeah I have been using it in the vice for a little over the year but I just relocated my shop and am refinishing my workbench tops (just put another coat on them). I am separating my benches and will have one dedicated to tire changes and quick adjustments. I now have 2 vices (a teammate literally gave me a huge Wilton machinist's vice - along with 2 Lista workbenches *drool*). I am trying to figure out which vice will go where and whether or not I will permanently mount the wheel holder. Hadn't considered a non-permanent mounting options.....
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Old 01-29-21, 01:08 PM
  #137  
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Originally Posted by Psimet2001
Yeah I have been using it in the vice for a little over the year but I just relocated my shop and am refinishing my workbench tops (just put another coat on them). I am separating my benches and will have one dedicated to tire changes and quick adjustments. I now have 2 vices (a teammate literally gave me a huge Wilton machinist's vice - along with 2 Lista workbenches *drool*). I am trying to figure out which vice will go where and whether or not I will permanently mount the wheel holder. Hadn't considered a non-permanent mounting options.....
You should be careful about who you share your vices with. Now those Wilton vises can handle all but your biggest pro football friends.

I believe Wilton was the maker if my 30 year old Craftsman. 5 1/2" and a workhorse. Sadly the jaws have seen to much. No longer have clean edges. And Wilton stopped supporting Craftsman as Sears wound down. Nothing on the Wilton models fit. So I could have new jaws machined locally or buy a Wilton. Probably almost the same cost either way unless I find a machinist friend (who owes me a favor).
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Old 01-29-21, 02:57 PM
  #138  
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Originally Posted by noodle soup
$65 is no big deal, but when I first looked at your link, I thought I saw Backcountry/competitive cyclist selling it for $185(not $105).

I need more coffee.
Thereís an ďeconomy version,Ē WH-2, with fewer features, thatís only ~$54 retail:

https://www.amazon.com/Park-Tool-WH-.../dp/B07X896FR5
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Old 01-29-21, 06:09 PM
  #139  
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Originally Posted by Psimet2001
Understood. My comment is geared more towards anyone arguing about pressure who hasn't taken the time to check the accuracy of the gauges they are using.
Exactly right. Completely agree.
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Old 01-29-21, 06:22 PM
  #140  
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Originally Posted by Psimet2001
^ - so much this. That's why my first question to every client thinking about trying road tubeless is, "when was your last flat?"
Can't remember either. It's been 7 years at least if you don't count the flat when I crashed 2 years ago.

Dave
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Old 01-29-21, 10:07 PM
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The real questions are, “do you feel lucky?” versus, “do you want to plan to prevent flats?”

There is no wrong answer.
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Old 01-29-21, 10:23 PM
  #142  
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Originally Posted by WhyFi
I'm a huge proponent of tubeless, but even I wouldn't have moved to tubeless if I got flats once every ~10,000 miles.

How are you determining whether or not you're seeing a marginal gain in performance?
My wife is riding what I put together for my son's hill climbing. She is on year 2 of no flats* riding 1400g tubular wheels with tires and skewers and cassette (800g wheel set, 180g tires) and she has not had a flat.
The ride tubeless thing is something we hear often. That is about it.

*I did have a valve problem about 2 weeks ago.

Part of a 28 year old 14# bike with glued on tires. Hard to justify a change.
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Old 01-30-21, 09:11 AM
  #143  
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Originally Posted by Doge
My wife is riding what I put together for my son's hill climbing. She is on year 2 of no flats* riding 1400g tubular wheels with tires and skewers and cassette (800g wheel set, 180g tires) and she has not had a flat.
The ride tubeless thing is something we hear often. That is about it.

*I did have a valve problem about 2 weeks ago.

Part of a 28 year old 14# bike with glued on tires. Hard to justify a change.
How's the weather in Watopia?
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Old 01-30-21, 10:47 AM
  #144  
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Originally Posted by noodle soup
How's the weather in Watopia?
I mostly get flats on my clinchers. I have a pile of old worn out tubulars. My kid loves Tubless for his gravel bikes as he rides in thorny areas and the sealent is nice.
I avoid riding in thorns and glass. Sometimes you can't.

Some of these flatted - most are just worn out.



Because I had these pictures ready from that other post on 1X.

Tubulars


Tubulars

Tubulars
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Old 01-30-21, 03:21 PM
  #145  
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Originally Posted by bonsai171
Can't remember either. It's been 7 years at least if you don't count the flat when I crashed 2 years ago.

Dave
But itís also a function of geography and road quality. I used to get 6-8 flats per year with tubes, now I get one in a bad year with tubeless. Pretty straightforward decision in my geography and how I ride.

Itís more complex than tubes or tubeless.
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Old 01-30-21, 03:58 PM
  #146  
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Originally Posted by JohnJ80
But itís also a function of geography and road quality. I used to get 6-8 flats per year with tubes, now I get one in a bad year with tubeless. Pretty straightforward decision in my geography and how I ride.

Itís more complex than tubes or tubeless.
Not surprisingly, since we live in the same region, my flat frequency was about the same as yours. I would love to experience these idyllic roads that yield one flat every 10k miles on racy tires.
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Old 01-30-21, 04:54 PM
  #147  
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Originally Posted by JohnJ80
But itís also a function of geography and road quality. I used to get 6-8 flats per year with tubes, now I get one in a bad year with tubeless. Pretty straightforward decision in my geography and how I ride.

Itís more complex than tubes or tubeless.
Yep.

When I was in CO, a fifty-mile ride might have had 1-2 punctures, on average. Lots of goathead thorns.

Now I am much further east, and (knock on wood) punctures are much rarer. Even if I had road tubeless rims, I would probably still be running tubes in them.
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Old 01-30-21, 05:47 PM
  #148  
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Originally Posted by WhyFi
Not surprisingly, since we live in the same region, my flat frequency was about the same as yours. I would love to experience these idyllic roads that yield one flat every 10k miles on racy tires.
Me too! Those Minnesota winters just make it really tough to keep pavement quality up. I starting riding ďtubelessĒ on tubulars back in about 2008 or so using Tufo tubeless tubulars. That was an epiphany for me because the sealant/no pinch flat thing was just so very nice. I live out in the eastern part of the TC area near the St. Croix. Changing a flat in the middle of mosquito infested woods at sunset is a special sort of torture and a lot of incentive to find a better way,


When road tubeless became more usable, and with the advent of pluggers, I switched to tubeless clinchers. I still carry a tube but Iíve never used one when Iíve had a leak that the sealant wonít fix. Habits die hard, I donít know why I even carry one anymore. I wear the tires down to the cords and replace them without ever getting a puncture (that I know of).

So Iím a fan.
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