Closely-spaced ratios = quicker shift?
03-09-21, 12:46 AM
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Originally Posted by woodcraft
For the overall question, IMO the need for tighter ratios only shows up when riding fast with a group. On your own or with cadences < 85 or so it doesn't matter.
But my preference has always been to sacrifice high and low gears I'll rarely if ever need for ones in the middle of the range I'll use all the time to get my cadence in the narrow band I prefer.
I'm not sure how much of this is down to being weak and lazy, and how much is down to my historically utilitarian use case, involving the extra drag of street clothes. Although these days I'm in Lycra, but I still prefer the close ratios...
Another reason to go as close as you dare, is that since you're far less likely to spend most of your time on one or two cogs, wear will be spread further across the cassette, increasing its life.
If triples were still a thing, we could have our cake and eat it too, but noo, suddenly everyone's hating on front derailers, when they've never worked better. If a Di2 triple was released, I'd buy it tomorrow, and hang the expense.
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03-09-21, 01:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Kimmo
I guess most would agree with you, since I see so many folks rocking way wider ratios than they need, as if there's no cost to it.
But my preference has always been to sacrifice high and low gears I'll rarely if ever need for ones in the middle of the range I'll use all the time to get my cadence in the narrow band I prefer.
I'm not sure how much of this is down to being weak and lazy, and how much is down to my historically utilitarian use case, involving the extra drag of street clothes. Although these days I'm in Lycra, but I still prefer the close ratios...
Another reason to go as close as you dare, is that since you're far less likely to spend most of your time on one or two cogs, wear will be spread further across the cassette, increasing its life.
If triples were still a thing, we could have our cake and eat it too, but noo, suddenly everyone's hating on front derailers, when they've never worked better. If a Di2 triple was released, I'd buy it tomorrow, and hang the expense.
But my preference has always been to sacrifice high and low gears I'll rarely if ever need for ones in the middle of the range I'll use all the time to get my cadence in the narrow band I prefer.
I'm not sure how much of this is down to being weak and lazy, and how much is down to my historically utilitarian use case, involving the extra drag of street clothes. Although these days I'm in Lycra, but I still prefer the close ratios...
Another reason to go as close as you dare, is that since you're far less likely to spend most of your time on one or two cogs, wear will be spread further across the cassette, increasing its life.
If triples were still a thing, we could have our cake and eat it too, but noo, suddenly everyone's hating on front derailers, when they've never worked better. If a Di2 triple was released, I'd buy it tomorrow, and hang the expense.
It also depends on the terrain- the flatter it is, the more close gaps matter. Where I live, there is little flat, & when jumping in & out of 10% grades, one tooth shifts just get in the way.
03-09-21, 05:57 AM
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Here's me, just got a DA crank, thinking, hmm, 14-28 with 55/42 for super close ratios... wonder if my FD hanger can accommodate that puppy.
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03-09-21, 10:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Kimmo
Here's me, just got a DA crank, thinking, hmm, 14-28 with 55/42 for super close ratios... wonder if my FD hanger can accommodate that puppy.
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03-10-21, 12:18 AM
#31
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Originally Posted by Iride01
Because you are making a compromise. if you want to be able to ride up that 20% grade or what ever grade is difficult for you, then you can't just have one tooth gaps from 11th to 1st gear. At some point you have to accept more than one tooth gaps and the potential of ever so slightly worse shifting or drastic change in gear ratios.
Unless of course you have say maybe a 32 speed rear.
(I pulled 32 out of my ...... so don't dwell on that specifically)
Unless of course you have say maybe a 32 speed rear.
(I pulled 32 out of my ...... so don't dwell on that specifically)
Originally Posted by SoSmellyAir
It is simply math. On the small end of the cassette, a single tooth makes a big difference, e.g., 12/11 = 1.0909. This means you have to increase your cadence by about 9 percent to maintain the same speed after shifting from the 11T to the 12T cog. This differential decreases as you move toward the big end of the cassette, e.g., 13/12 = 1.0833, 14/13 = 1.0769, etc. At some point it becomes pretty small, e.g., 19/18 = 1.0556, so it makes sense to have a two teeth jump. At the big end of the cassette, where one is generally climbing and thus going slower, one can tolerate a bigger, multiple teeth jump in order to have a bigger mechanical advantage to climb steeper slopes, i.e., a bail out gear. For example, the 7 speed cassette on my wife's cruiser bike has two teeth jumps throughout except the largest cog is 10 teeth larger than the next largest cog. But she never uses it.
Originally Posted by socalrider
If you want to do the deeper dive you can use the Sheldon grown gear calculator and you can see where the overlaps are from big to small ring. If I have a very flat ride - I will put on a 12-23 cassette which gives me a super tight shifting ratio. If I am climbing then I opt for a 12-27 or even 13-29 cassette - depending on how many climbs are over 10% grade. If you are using Shimano or Sram - you do not need to buy Dura Ace / opt for Ultegra or even 105 cassettes to save you money. The other thing is that many do not really need an 11 cog - start your cassettes with a 12 or even 13 if you are climbing a lot those days.
https://www.sheldonbrown.com/gear-calc.html
https://www.sheldonbrown.com/gear-calc.html
03-10-21, 01:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Ataylor
I don't know why I find this information so interesting, seeing as how it's more than likely useless information (or perhaps a negligible experience) for a non-racer, but it still intrigues the hell out of me for some reason.
03-10-21, 02:25 AM
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Originally Posted by SoSmellyAir
To the contrary, it is equally, if not more important, to recreational riders. The professionals are phenomenal athletes with broad power bands (i.e., they can efficiently generate power at a wider range of cadences) and thus tolerate bigger changes in gear ratios between shifts. I am weak and have a narrow power band, so I need all the optimization I can get (within reasonable costs), even though I am not racing anyone.
That said, I decided to go with the 11/28 for now. I'm going to test that out, see which cogs I spend the most time in and then perhaps jump to another cassette if need be. Two that I have in mind are the 14/28 (that was kindly suggested by jaxgtr above) and then potentially a 12/25, which gives me the 12 and 13 cogs and also has the least amount of spacing after the 14/28. Of course I'd be sacrificing everything beyond 25, but that's just something I'm going to have to see if I really need or not after everything's installed.
Last edited by Ataylor; 03-10-21 at 02:31 AM.
03-10-21, 06:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Ataylor
Really? I mean based off of what some people said in this thread (it may have just been one person), it seemed as though the difference wasn't something to write home about unless you were racing or in fast-paced group rides. Pretty sure I read this elsewhere, too, though. But if recreational riders (of which I am one) can actually benefit and feel a noticeable difference with closer spacing, then I'm all in.
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03-10-21, 06:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Ataylor
Okay, I think I get it.
Half-step triple, using double parts
I reckon I was well-suited to sniffing out efficiency by wanting to ride fast in street clothes without raising a sweat...
Here's another interesting graph:
RPM vs km/h, red: 53/39x12-23, blue: my setup
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Last edited by Kimmo; 03-10-21 at 06:26 AM.
03-10-21, 10:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Kimmo
Here's me, just got a DA crank, thinking, hmm, 14-28 with 55/42 for super close ratios... wonder if my FD hanger can accommodate that puppy.
03-10-21, 11:43 AM
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53/39 12/25 11sp D/A all the way! I just love dropping the compacts on fast downhill rollers. This was the standard for like forever and I guess I'm too old to change.
03-10-21, 11:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Ataylor
Really? I mean based off of what some people said in this thread (it may have just been one person), it seemed as though the difference wasn't something to write home about unless you were racing or in fast-paced group rides. Pretty sure I read this elsewhere, too, though. But if recreational riders (of which I am one) can actually benefit and feel a noticeable difference with closer spacing, then I'm all in.
The reason everybody doesn't agree on which is better is because (1) it comes down to what you like, and (2) we all ride in different kinds of places. You want different gear setups for flat places and hilly places, and for how fit you are and how fast you want to go.
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03-10-21, 03:47 PM
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Originally Posted by colnago62
Shimano recomends keeping the difference within 16 teeth.
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03-10-21, 03:48 PM
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Originally Posted by WhyFi
Anyone would notice the difference between small and large gearing jumps - it's pretty obvious - but I don't think it's terribly important unless you're exerting yourself at/close to your max capacity for a given duration. IOW, pedaling at 70 rpm at 65% ftp is no problem. At 110% ftp, though, you might have some issues if you're straddling a gap that sees, for instance, 95rpm on one cog (putting more strain on your legs) and 110 on the next (putting more strain on your cardiovascular).
11T, 12T, 13T, 14T, 15T, 17T, 19T, 21T, 23T, 25T, 28T [Shimano]
11T, 12T, 13T, 14T, 15T, 16T, 17T, 19T, 22T, 25T, 28T [SRAM]
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03-10-21, 03:52 PM
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Originally Posted by SoSmellyAir
However, I am hardly the only one who laments the absence of the 16T cog in the Shimano 11-28 cassettes, and many others praise SRAM for including a 16T cog in its 11-28 cassette at the expense of bigger jumps at the big end of the cassette.
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03-10-21, 03:58 PM
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That cassette should be 11,12,13,14,15,16,18,20,22,25,28 IMO. Bet it's not a thing because some crap reason like the extra expense of making 18 and 20.
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03-10-21, 04:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Ataylor
That said, I decided to go with the 11/28 for now. I'm going to test that out, see which cogs I spend the most time in and then perhaps jump to another cassette if need be. Two that I have in mind are the 14/28 (that was kindly suggested by jaxgtr above) and then potentially a 12/25, which gives me the 12 and 13 cogs and also has the least amount of spacing after the 14/28. Of course I'd be sacrificing everything beyond 25, but that's just something I'm going to have to see if I really need or not after everything's installed.
Last edited by SoSmellyAir; 03-10-21 at 04:44 PM.
03-10-21, 04:35 PM
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3x fronts also dominated when the 11-28 and 11-26 were supreme. But many strong cyclists can still run them with a 2x for their cycling conditions.
03-10-21, 04:42 PM
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Originally Posted by SoSmellyAir
The best way to pick a cassette
I submit in contrast to yours, that rather than going wider than necessary, one might choose to skip the rarely-used extremes in favour of more choices 98% of the time, which also avoids making wear hot spots in the cassette.
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03-10-21, 04:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Kimmo
This assumes there's no disagreement over criteria.
I submit in contrast to yours, that rather than going wider than necessary, one might choose to skip the rarely-used extremes in favour of more choices 98% of the time, which also avoids wear hot spots in the cassette.
I submit in contrast to yours, that rather than going wider than necessary, one might choose to skip the rarely-used extremes in favour of more choices 98% of the time, which also avoids wear hot spots in the cassette.
And I did follow the way you described to settle on a 12-25 cassette. Once in a while I wish it had a 28T instead of the 18T cog.
Last edited by SoSmellyAir; 03-10-21 at 04:46 PM.
03-10-21, 04:47 PM
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Never mind that bit you missed - how do you reckon my criteria stack up next to yours?
Do you want spare gears you never use, or more gears that get used?
Do you want spare gears you never use, or more gears that get used?
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03-10-21, 04:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Kimmo
Do you want spare gears you never use, or more gears that get used?
03-10-21, 04:54 PM
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I totally get wanting a bailout, which is why I hate the demise of triples. Lucky for me it's flat round my way.
What I don't get, is mandatory 11s, it's just dumb. If I have a 53t, I might not want anything smaller than a 13t, you know - I mean how often do those speeds come up, and these days I'm not sure I even still have the balls.
And I don't want to use smaller chainrings - they're less efficient, I'm pretty sure they cause more wear, and they make the ratios wider.
Oh, and they look crap.
BAM! 39/53 all the way. At least until Shimano picks up my 38/50/52 idea...
What I don't get, is mandatory 11s, it's just dumb. If I have a 53t, I might not want anything smaller than a 13t, you know - I mean how often do those speeds come up, and these days I'm not sure I even still have the balls.
And I don't want to use smaller chainrings - they're less efficient, I'm pretty sure they cause more wear, and they make the ratios wider.
Oh, and they look crap.
BAM! 39/53 all the way. At least until Shimano picks up my 38/50/52 idea...
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Half-step triple, using double gear ~~~ 6400 STI rebuild walkthrough ~~~ Want 8/9/10s @126mm OLD? OCR. ~~~ Shimano cassette body overhaul ~~~ Ergopower Escape wear repair ~~~ PSA: drivetrain wear
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Last edited by Kimmo; 03-10-21 at 05:01 PM.
