Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Road Cycling
Reload this Page >

Vittoria's new foam insert for road bikes with flat tires

Notices
Road Cycling “It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them. Thus you remember them as they actually are, while in a motor car only a high hill impresses you, and you have no such accurate remembrance of country you have driven through as you gain by riding a bicycle.” -- Ernest Hemingway

Vittoria's new foam insert for road bikes with flat tires

Old 04-03-21, 05:10 AM
  #26  
Thread Killer
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 12,757

Bikes: 15 Kinesis Racelight 4S, 76 Motebecane Gran Jubilée, 17 Dedacciai Gladiatore2, 12 Breezer Venturi, 09 Dahon Mariner, 12 Mercier Nano, 95 DeKerf Team SL, 19 Tern Rally, 21 Breezer Doppler Cafe+, 19 T-Lab X3, 91 Serotta CII, 23 3T Strada

Liked 1,904 Times in 1,145 Posts
Originally Posted by Racing Dan
So now we only need a rim/tyre comparability list, a compressor, some sealant, some extra valve cores, a bead jack, a co2 pump, a set of bacon strips with insert tool and a cushcore for our TL hookless whel/tyre combo, that is supposedly flat proof to begin with ..
It was never flat-proof.

With Airliner, though, you could ditch the emergency flat repair kit altogether. No plugs, no CO2. Rely on the sealant for most puncture repair, and then the Airliner for sealant-unpluggable punctures.

Airliner without road repair kit means never messing around roadside...if you’re willing to hive up on the idea of returning to a normal ride after a catastrophic/unpluggable event. Probably some will find that liberating or the risk worth taking.

I’ve been road tubeless since ‘12 or ‘13, and only twice needed to go to a tube to deal with a sealant-unpluggable puncture. Those are good enough ofds for me yo seriously consider Airliner and give up on the concept of road repair.

I use my multitool even less, so I’d probably dump everything except a mini-pump, which might be handy to top up pressure after a sealant repair. Maybe. Really, I’d probably dump that, too.

Between the seat bag, pump, and tools, I’m sure I’ve got more than $100 in emergency kit related stuff, so Airliner would easily save me money as well. Sh*t, my Lezyne Road Drive Carbon pumps are more than $100 apiece...

Last edited by chaadster; 04-03-21 at 10:14 AM. Reason: Grammar fix
chaadster is offline  
Likes For chaadster:
Old 04-03-21, 05:23 AM
  #27  
Senior Member
 
WhyFi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: TC, MN
Posts: 39,521

Bikes: R3 Disc, Haanjo

Liked 9,462 Times in 4,673 Posts
Originally Posted by Racing Dan
So now we only need a rim/tyre comparability list, a compressor, some sealant, some extra valve cores, a bead jack, a co2 pump, a set of bacon strips with insert tool and a cushcore for our TL hookless whel/tyre combo, that is supposedly flat proof to begin with ..
Need? No. Yeah, on a subject in which you have more disdain than knowledge, you got something wrong - shocker.

Should we compare the list of required materials for tube users? Tubes really aren't that much more simple - they're just more familiar. "The devil you know... " and all of that.

Actually, let's just keep to the subject of the thread, rather than pander to bottom-feeding troll attempts.

----------

The inserts sound interesting, but I'm not sure that I'm interested in them... In my five years or so of tubeless use, I've probably had... maybe two instances where it would have come in handy. So it becomes a question of whether or not I want the increased cost and and extra install/removal work for occurrences that have proven themselves to be pretty rare.
WhyFi is offline  
Old 04-03-21, 05:38 AM
  #28  
Should Be More Popular
 
datlas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Malvern, PA (20 miles West of Philly)
Posts: 43,443

Bikes: 1986 Alpine (steel road bike), 2009 Ti Habenero, 2013 Specialized Roubaix

Liked 9,382 Times in 4,335 Posts
Interesting but I am not jumping on it.

Still running 10 speed drivetrain and clinchers with tubes.

__________________
Originally Posted by rjones28
Addiction is all about class.
datlas is online now  
Old 04-03-21, 08:42 AM
  #29  
Thread Killer
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 12,757

Bikes: 15 Kinesis Racelight 4S, 76 Motebecane Gran Jubilée, 17 Dedacciai Gladiatore2, 12 Breezer Venturi, 09 Dahon Mariner, 12 Mercier Nano, 95 DeKerf Team SL, 19 Tern Rally, 21 Breezer Doppler Cafe+, 19 T-Lab X3, 91 Serotta CII, 23 3T Strada

Liked 1,904 Times in 1,145 Posts
Originally Posted by WhyFi
So it becomes a question of whether or not I want the increased cost and and extra install/removal work for occurrences that have proven themselves to be pretty rare.
Right, but being honest, I’ve wrestled with tubeless rim/tire combos to the point I wished I’d had a bead jack, so I’m not sure there’s really extra there, just different work!

It’s the idea of never having to futz and fail roadside which is appealing to me. Airliner doesn’t eliminate the futz— stopping to put the hole at 6 o’clock to seal will still be a thing— but it does remove the fail part, in that if the sealant doesn’t do it in a couple of minutes, I can call the whole situation then and ride to wherever on the Airliner. I won’t have to try a plug which pulls out down the road (or did I forget the plug tool?), I won’t have to pump the tire (or did I give one cartridge to buddy and blow my last cartridge on a gummed up valve?), I wont have to put a boot and tube (or did I forget my levers or pinch cut the tube reseating the bead?).

Yeah, none of those things happen much, but they do happen, along with a whole bunch of other stuff like ****** weather, horrific clouds of mosquitos, multiple flats, and needing to get home in time to pock up the kid so I don’t get billed extra by the school. Removing all the variables from roadside repair and simplifying the “decision tree” is pretty compelling to me.

I also like the Airliner idea tremendously for primarily urban bikes, where flats are even more irritating because I usually have somewhere to be.

And because I have a 15 bike household with actively 9 separate, dedicated road repair kits, rendering all those packs, tubes, patches, plugs, pumps, cartridges and levers obsolete (or down to one, at-home kit) substantially simplifies my life. Like, I was just about to buy a Dynaplug Racer tire plug kit, which at $50 is half the price of a pair of Airliners, but which doesn’t guarantee me anything out on the road because it still requires the right size hole, a pump, and probably some sealant and luck. Another $50 makes it all go away...

Here’s a question though: can Airliners be reused? I wonder if riding it flat destroys it?
chaadster is offline  
Old 04-03-21, 09:12 AM
  #30  
Thread Killer
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 12,757

Bikes: 15 Kinesis Racelight 4S, 76 Motebecane Gran Jubilée, 17 Dedacciai Gladiatore2, 12 Breezer Venturi, 09 Dahon Mariner, 12 Mercier Nano, 95 DeKerf Team SL, 19 Tern Rally, 21 Breezer Doppler Cafe+, 19 T-Lab X3, 91 Serotta CII, 23 3T Strada

Liked 1,904 Times in 1,145 Posts
Oh god:

Recommendations

  • It is recommended not to ride more than 50 km at moderate speed of max 20 km/h in run-flat conditions.
  • Air-Liner Road complies with ISO requirements for max system weight of 125 kg (rider, bike and equipment).
  • In case of puncture, and consequent air loss, Air-Liner Road allows for temporary low-speed run-flat riding, to get you home. While Air-Liner Road allows you to ride to the nearest repair area, it is not intended as a substitute for a properly inflated tire for extended use.
  • The Air-Liner Road insert must be checked each time a tire is changed, prior to installing a replacement tire. Air-Liner Road dimensions can be negatively affected by certain conditions, which may reduce its effectiveness, or eliminate its functionality, such as:

    1) Riding on a flat tire: always check the condition of the Air-Liner ROAD insert, after its use inside a deflated tire;

    2) Storing the Air-Liner inside a deflated tire: We recommend keeping a moderate pressure (1 Bar min) when not in use. We recommend replacing Air-Liner Road inserts every year.
  • The Air-liner Road insert can be safely ridden inside a deflated tire, provided the integrity of the insert is maintained, allowing for the original dimensions to remain consistent. The insert must not to be modified on its original shape and dimensions.
https://www.vittoria.com/us/en/techn...air-liner-road
chaadster is offline  
Old 04-03-21, 09:58 AM
  #31  
Senior Member
 
eduskator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Québec, Canada
Posts: 2,173

Bikes: SL8 Pro, TCR beater

Liked 599 Times in 451 Posts
Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest
I'm skeptical, but it would be great if I'm wrong. They claim it has no effect on rolling resistance and weighs less than your valve. The idea is you can limp home or back to your car without damaging your rim.

https://cyclingtips.com/2021/04/vitt...or-road-bikes/
I think it's great. I watched the GCN video on it this week. Simon said it's like running on 30PSI (if I recall properly) when you get a flat, which is not that bad.

It's nice how the foam expands or shrinks depending on the internal air pressure. It does not seem to be adding much weight either.
eduskator is offline  
Old 04-03-21, 10:23 AM
  #32  
Thread Killer
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 12,757

Bikes: 15 Kinesis Racelight 4S, 76 Motebecane Gran Jubilée, 17 Dedacciai Gladiatore2, 12 Breezer Venturi, 09 Dahon Mariner, 12 Mercier Nano, 95 DeKerf Team SL, 19 Tern Rally, 21 Breezer Doppler Cafe+, 19 T-Lab X3, 91 Serotta CII, 23 3T Strada

Liked 1,904 Times in 1,145 Posts
Originally Posted by eduskator
Simon [quoting Vittoria] said it's like running on 30PSI (if I recall properly) when you get a flat, which is not that bad.
Whether that’s true depends on rider weight.

A 150lbs rider will have a very different impression of a 25c at 30psi than a 250lbs rider will, and if you’re closer to 260lbs on anything other than carbon fiber lightweight, given the recommended max system weight of 275.5lbs, it might just be straight-up bad.
chaadster is offline  
Old 04-03-21, 10:37 AM
  #33  
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Seattle Forrest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 23,208
Liked 10,647 Times in 6,055 Posts
Originally Posted by Racing Dan
So now we only need a rim/tyre comparability list, a compressor, some sealant, some extra valve cores, a bead jack, a co2 pump, a set of bacon strips with insert tool and a cushcore for our TL hookless whel/tyre combo, that is supposedly flat proof to begin with ..
If I didn't know what I was talking about, I would rather learn instead of taking everybody I don't know what I'm talking about. 🙂
Seattle Forrest is offline  
Old 04-03-21, 11:01 AM
  #34  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Newport Beach, CA
Posts: 1,935

Bikes: S works Tarmac, Felt TK2 track

Liked 180 Times in 111 Posts
So now we find it is possibly good only for one flat at a cost equal to a tire and riding on it is a safety issue if not ridden carefully. Progess
popeye is offline  
Old 04-03-21, 05:42 PM
  #35  
Zoom zoom zoom zoom bonk
 
znomit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 4,694

Bikes: Giant Defy, Trek 1.7c, BMC GF02, Trek Marlin 6, Scott Sub 35, Kona Rove, Trek Verve+2

Liked 771 Times in 389 Posts
Thinking about how this works.

When you pump up the tyre initially the airliner compresses because it's a closed cell foam and there's a pressure differential. Eventually the high pressure air will make its way into the cells and the foam will expand back to its normal shape again when the pressure between the air inside the airliner and the tyre equalises. When you get a puncture the closed cells are still at high pressure and the airliner will expand to fill the volume of the tyre, pressure will drop accordingly. They will hold their pressure for a little while but go squishy as the airliner loses pressure.

After installation while the pressure is equalising the tyres will deflate faster than normal.
znomit is offline  
Likes For znomit:
Old 04-03-21, 08:29 PM
  #36  
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Seattle Forrest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 23,208
Liked 10,647 Times in 6,055 Posts
Originally Posted by popeye
So now we find it is possibly good only for one flat at a cost equal to a tire and riding on it is a safety issue if not ridden carefully. Progess
Did you know you can still get killed even if you wear a helmet?
Seattle Forrest is offline  
Likes For Seattle Forrest:
Old 04-03-21, 09:12 PM
  #37  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 2,608

Bikes: 2022 Specialized Allez Sprint custom build, 2019 Giant Defy Advanced Pro 0, 2018 Seven Mudhoney Pro custom build, 2017 Raleigh Stuntman, various others

Liked 475 Times in 238 Posts
Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest
Tubes are a pain in the ass. They flat a lot more often, you have to run higher pressures because there's a tube to pinch, they add to rolling resistance, the ride quality is lesser.
Totally agree. I've been tubeless on all bikes for three years. I'm never going back to tubes, for all the reasons you list. I've done probably 15 setups myself so far. At this point, I actually find trying to get a tube in a tire without pinching it more or a hassle than mounting a tubeless tire. You just have to develop a repeatable system that works for you.

This thing seems gimmicky, but if they work as advertised, even better. I'll use them if they work.
CushCore is well established and accepted technology on mountain bikes. I think something like this is probably overkill for the majority of road and gravel riders, but the idea apparently works as advertised.
Hiro11 is offline  
Likes For Hiro11:
Old 04-03-21, 10:03 PM
  #38  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 69

Bikes: 2021 BMC Teammachine SLR Three

Liked 57 Times in 20 Posts
I saw this the other day on GCN and it was interesting to see that EF Nippo has already used them in a number of pro races.
RandomDesign is offline  
Old 04-03-21, 10:52 PM
  #39  
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Seattle Forrest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 23,208
Liked 10,647 Times in 6,055 Posts
Originally Posted by chaadster
Oh god:

Recommendations

  • It is recommended not to ride more than 50 km at moderate speed of max 20 km/h in run-flat conditions
The guy in the gcn video was going a lot faster than that, and leaning into corners. Probably the numeric limits are the work of lawyers?
Seattle Forrest is offline  
Likes For Seattle Forrest:
Old 04-03-21, 11:29 PM
  #40  
Thread Killer
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 12,757

Bikes: 15 Kinesis Racelight 4S, 76 Motebecane Gran Jubilée, 17 Dedacciai Gladiatore2, 12 Breezer Venturi, 09 Dahon Mariner, 12 Mercier Nano, 95 DeKerf Team SL, 19 Tern Rally, 21 Breezer Doppler Cafe+, 19 T-Lab X3, 91 Serotta CII, 23 3T Strada

Liked 1,904 Times in 1,145 Posts
Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest
The guy in the gcn video was going a lot faster than that, and leaning into corners. Probably the numeric limits are the work of lawyers?
Certainly to an extent, but do we know that as going on the vid segment? Was the rear flatted as well? How much does Simon weigh?
chaadster is offline  
Old 04-04-21, 03:22 AM
  #41  
Senior Member
 
Racing Dan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 2,236
Liked 321 Times in 218 Posts
Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest
If I didn't know what I was talking about, I would rather learn instead of taking everybody I don't know what I'm talking about. 🙂
Sure, but at this point the faff competes head to head with tubs!, and according to the internets, TL was already perfect to begin with, years ago, and every YT bike channel, Including GCN, was riding TL tyres over boxes of thumbtacks and broken bottles, showing off the supposed "great" benefits of TL road tyres. - But why then, is an ever growing list of tools, remedies and proverbial crutches needed?* Latest and greatest is an "airliner" that enables run-flat conditions (that TL was supposed to prevent in the first place) AND retain the bead lock in the event of air loss. An issues that was also touted as a TL benefit over clinchers. Are they afraid of the tyres burping, from ppl running ever lower pressures on their TL/hookless setups and having the tyres come off from instant deflation and loosing the bead lock?* :-) Its all great, but good luck installing or removing a tight TL tyre from a rim that has a foam insert preventing you from using the channel to ease the installation, .. For the removal of a tyre with a airliner you can now add a special plier and clips to the TL toolbox, to get the tyre off of the bead and rim :-)


*(rhetoric questions, -please don't answer)

Last edited by Racing Dan; 04-04-21 at 04:15 AM.
Racing Dan is offline  
Old 04-04-21, 07:13 AM
  #42  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2018
Posts: 1,685
Liked 780 Times in 404 Posts
Originally Posted by popeye
So now we find it is possibly good only for one flat at a cost equal to a tire and riding on it is a safety issue if not ridden carefully. Progess
Not being careful while riding down the street one block from your home is a safety issue.
What’s your point again?
downhillmaster is offline  
Old 04-04-21, 07:48 AM
  #43  
Thread Killer
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 12,757

Bikes: 15 Kinesis Racelight 4S, 76 Motebecane Gran Jubilée, 17 Dedacciai Gladiatore2, 12 Breezer Venturi, 09 Dahon Mariner, 12 Mercier Nano, 95 DeKerf Team SL, 19 Tern Rally, 21 Breezer Doppler Cafe+, 19 T-Lab X3, 91 Serotta CII, 23 3T Strada

Liked 1,904 Times in 1,145 Posts
Racing Dan dudes like you said the same things about STI, suspension systems, and disc brakes.
chaadster is offline  
Likes For chaadster:
Old 04-04-21, 08:02 AM
  #44  
Senior Member
 
WhyFi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: TC, MN
Posts: 39,521

Bikes: R3 Disc, Haanjo

Liked 9,462 Times in 4,673 Posts
Originally Posted by chaadster
Racing Dan dudes like you said the same things about STI, suspension systems, and disc brakes.
And, if we want to get technical with his blame game, tubeless was a development to address the shortcomings of tubed clinchers, so he can ultimately thank them for all of his "faff."
WhyFi is offline  
Old 04-04-21, 08:09 AM
  #45  
Senior Member
 
Racing Dan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 2,236
Liked 321 Times in 218 Posts
Originally Posted by downhillmaster
Not being careful while riding down the street one block from your home is a safety issue.
What’s your point again?
Should be fairly obvious. Its a limp home system rather than race down steep hills on a flat system, like they make it appear at GCN. - And the price, I dunno, but combined with a TL tyre, that is already more expensive than clinchers, and sealant it does add up, especially if we are meant to replace the inserts at a yearly interval, at $40 per insert. Im sure lots couldn't care less, but the fear of flats and ppl insisting riding race day tyres, all the time, sure does drive a lot of business.

Me, I just put on a more robust clincher and ride. Haven't had a flat for ages and when I finally do, I pop in an new tube and be on my way in less time than I took to write this post :-) No special tools, other than my hands, a tyre lever and a basic pump is needed either.

Call me a luddite all you want, but this simply doesn't feel like real progress unlike SIS, hydraulic brakes, DI2, .. etc.
Racing Dan is offline  
Old 04-04-21, 08:35 AM
  #46  
Senior Member
 
WhyFi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: TC, MN
Posts: 39,521

Bikes: R3 Disc, Haanjo

Liked 9,462 Times in 4,673 Posts
Originally Posted by Racing Dan
Call me a luddite all you want, but this simply doesn't feel like real progress...
For some people, it's not - I guess that you're one of them. For others, though, tubeless is absolutely a huge quality of life improvement, eliminating, or at least greatly mitigating, a regular hassle associated with roadside flats. This is why hackles are sometimes raised when people like you pop in to a thread with the sole purpose of slinging ****.
WhyFi is offline  
Old 04-04-21, 08:48 AM
  #47  
Senior Member
 
eduskator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Québec, Canada
Posts: 2,173

Bikes: SL8 Pro, TCR beater

Liked 599 Times in 451 Posts
Originally Posted by chaadster
Whether that’s true depends on rider weight.

A 150lbs rider will have a very different impression of a 25c at 30psi than a 250lbs rider will, and if you’re closer to 260lbs on anything other than carbon fiber lightweight, given the recommended max system weight of 275.5lbs, it might just be straight-up bad.
Thanks captain obvious, but ''most'' of us don't weigh 250lbs. To be considered fit at this weight, you would need to measure at least 7ft.
eduskator is offline  
Old 04-04-21, 08:59 AM
  #48  
Advocatus Diaboli
 
Sy Reene's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Wherever I am
Posts: 8,783

Bikes: Merlin Cyrene, Nashbar steel CX

Liked 1,575 Times in 1,034 Posts
Originally Posted by chaadster
No, UST aren’t the only airtight tubeless tires. I ran first gen Schwalbe Pro One tires on American Classic Argent tubeless rims (non-UST) without sealant, no problem.

I’ve kind of lost track of what all the particular tubeless terminology refering to casing type means, e.g. “tubeless ready,” “Tubeless Easy,” “TLE,” “tubeless,” “tubeless TLR,” and all the rest, but basically some casings are lined to make them airtight, and some are not, relying instead on the sealant to make the casing airtight.
I'm curious what all exists that is full Tubeless for road that can inflate without sealant. I took a look at Schwalbe, most everything it appears is Tubeless Easy, meaning sealant req'd.
Sy Reene is offline  
Old 04-04-21, 09:20 AM
  #49  
Senior Member
 
WhyFi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: TC, MN
Posts: 39,521

Bikes: R3 Disc, Haanjo

Liked 9,462 Times in 4,673 Posts
Originally Posted by Sy Reene
I'm curious what all exists that is full Tubeless for road that can inflate without sealant. I took a look at Schwalbe, most everything it appears is Tubeless Easy, meaning sealant req'd.
There aren't that many of there, but I think that it's pretty much moot, anyway. Whether or not sealant is required, adding some is a small and easy investment that yields great benefits.
WhyFi is offline  
Old 04-04-21, 09:25 AM
  #50  
Thread Killer
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 12,757

Bikes: 15 Kinesis Racelight 4S, 76 Motebecane Gran Jubilée, 17 Dedacciai Gladiatore2, 12 Breezer Venturi, 09 Dahon Mariner, 12 Mercier Nano, 95 DeKerf Team SL, 19 Tern Rally, 21 Breezer Doppler Cafe+, 19 T-Lab X3, 91 Serotta CII, 23 3T Strada

Liked 1,904 Times in 1,145 Posts
Originally Posted by Racing Dan
Should be fairly obvious. Its a limp home system rather than race down steep hills on a flat system, like they make it appear at GCN. - And the price, I dunno, but combined with a TL tyre, that is already more expensive than clinchers, and sealant it does add up, especially if we are meant to replace the inserts at a yearly interval, at $40 per insert. Im sure lots couldn't care less, but the fear of flats and ppl insisting riding race day tyres, all the time, sure does drive a lot of business.

Me, I just put on a more robust clincher and ride. Haven't had a flat for ages and when I finally do, I pop in an new tube and be on my way in less time than I took to write this post :-) No special tools, other than my hands, a tyre lever and a basic pump is needed either.

Call me a luddite all you want, but this simply doesn't feel like real progress unlike SIS, hydraulic brakes, DI2, .. etc.
That’s it, that’s a winning strategy: “Nothing to see here, everyone! Ignore the stuff that might make your bike ride more enjoyable, and just use heavy, slow, tires like me. Stand with me, my fiends, on the side of a busy road in the rain and let’s fix our flats together with our bare hands and primitive tools!”

Lemme guess...does my reward for such existential deprivation earn reward in the afterlife? I know it’s not your place to say, but c’mon, man-to-man here, how many virgins do you think the Lord will grant me for sticking with innertubes?
chaadster is offline  
Likes For chaadster:

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Your Privacy Choices -

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.