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aero helmets evidently matter

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aero helmets evidently matter

Old 05-03-21, 11:20 AM
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hubcyclist
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aero helmets evidently matter

Did some testing outside yesterday, made a short video. Enjoy/discuss

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Old 05-03-21, 11:34 AM
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That is an interesting non-scientific comparison. I've done similar for myself with a Specialized Prevail II and Evade. The Evade "feels" faster, but since there are so many other factors at play when riding on a road, and they can't be controlled, there's no way to really know...except for the claims of manufacturers who say they test these things in wind tunnels. Cool video.
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Old 05-03-21, 11:45 AM
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I know this is not scientific, but my wife absolutely flies in her aero helmet. Got any videos about pink bike shorts?

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Old 05-03-21, 11:54 AM
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I'd love to see a similar video about backpacks. The right one should have a similar effect to an aero helmet. It'd be neat to see several compared.
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Old 05-03-21, 01:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Badger6 View Post
but since there are so many other factors at play when riding on a road, and they can't be controlled, there's no way to really know...
Not everything has to be controlled, as long as you can measure them and know how to account for them. That is, you don't have to do experimental control if you can collect what you need to do statistical control.
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Old 05-03-21, 02:25 PM
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Originally Posted by RChung View Post
Not everything has to be controlled, as long as you can measure them and know how to account for them. That is, you don't have to do experimental control if you can collect what you need to do statistical control.
That's not how science or statistics work. But, okay.
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Old 05-03-21, 02:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Badger6 View Post
That's not how science or statistics work. But, okay.
Oh dear.
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Old 05-03-21, 03:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Badger6 View Post
That's not how science or statistics work. But, okay.
Yes it is.

Also, it might be worth noting that the person you're responding to is responsible for developing a technique that can be used to measure a cyclist's aerodynamic profile without a wind tunnel, which can actually be applied to get pretty useful results.
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Old 05-03-21, 03:22 PM
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I'm aware of his bona fides. That's why I'm so shocked.
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Old 05-03-21, 04:03 PM
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Definitely realize my test isn’t super scientific but I think all things considering it’s about as close as one can get to a good real world A/B test and subjectively It was interesting to use the aero helmet after the non aero one, I definitely felt like I was moving through the air with greater ease (I only monitor power on my head unit not speed).

i still like my kask helmet more and will be my primary helmet but if I go for my 5hr century I’ll definitely go with the lazer (and shave my legs too lol). My century time last year was 5:14 at 19mph so if the lazer gets me closer to 20 I’ll take it
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Old 05-03-21, 04:58 PM
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Originally Posted by hubcyclist View Post
Did some testing outside yesterday, made a short video. Enjoy/discuss

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_CDQIyGf7M
Nice. Thank you.
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Old 05-03-21, 06:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Badger6 View Post
I'm aware of his bona fides. That's why I'm so shocked.
I'm glad I still have the ability to surprise, ocasionally.

Astrophysicists don't get to do experimental control on stars or galaxies. Seismologists don't get to randomly assign earthquakes and earthquake magnitude. And we don't get to randomly split the population into a control group and a group we infect with SARS-CoV-2 (let's skip that unpleasantness with the Tuskegee syphilis experiment). Since WWII, almost all of the interesting statistical advances have been in areas where one can't do experiments. The reason why Bayes' theorem has been so useful is because it lets us do statistical controls in cases where we can't do experimental control.
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Old 05-03-21, 06:52 PM
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Originally Posted by HTupolev View Post
Yup.....like this........

Tempor and Cerebel at my TT pace was 7w difference..........a difference between two cutting edge TT helmets. The difference of a cheese grater road helmet to an aero road helmet being even more, or a cheese grater road helmet to a TT helmet. If you up it to a false-flat kind of air speed the difference grew to 10w.

Here's what VE looks like........I'm trying to get an anemometer to work to account for actual air speed for the VE math. I've gotten decently close.



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Old 05-03-21, 11:24 PM
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Originally Posted by hubcyclist View Post
Definitely realize my test isn’t super scientific but I think all things considering it’s about as close as one can get to a good real world A/B test and subjectively It was interesting to use the aero helmet after the non aero one, I definitely felt like I was moving through the air with greater ease (I only monitor power on my head unit not speed).

i still like my kask helmet more and will be my primary helmet but if I go for my 5hr century I’ll definitely go with the lazer (and shave my legs too lol). My century time last year was 5:14 at 19mph so if the lazer gets me closer to 20 I’ll take it
2 tests is not exactly a good distribution, but it's a start. And, as I sort of said, above, this is still pretty neat. Like you, my preferred helmet for several reasons is not my most aero helmet (more comfortable, a place to stash my sunglasses), but under the right conditions the aero helmet is definitely called for and it "feels" faster. And, as you probably know, these sorts of marginal gains really add up on longer efforts, in more ways than just speed.
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Old 05-03-21, 11:34 PM
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Originally Posted by RChung View Post
I'm glad I still have the ability to surprise, ocasionally.

Astrophysicists don't get to do experimental control on stars or galaxies. Seismologists don't get to randomly assign earthquakes and earthquake magnitude. And we don't get to randomly split the population into a control group and a group we infect with SARS-CoV-2 (let's skip that unpleasantness with the Tuskegee syphilis experiment). Since WWII, almost all of the interesting statistical advances have been in areas where one can't do experiments. The reason why Bayes' theorem has been so useful is because it lets us do statistical controls in cases where we can't do experimental control.
I use the outputs of Bayesian analysis (other people do it, I read it and integrate it) in my work, I'm familiar with how it works and why it is so useful. I also know that when the data people do the analysis, they set up the tests and let the computers perform thousands of runs to get a proper sample distribution. Even hundreds can get to good data, but 2? It's neat info at that point. And, for those of us doing what the OP did it, based on the tools at hand, it's cool to see the comparisons.
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Old 05-04-21, 12:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Badger6 View Post
I use the outputs of Bayesian analysis (other people do it, I read it and integrate it) in my work, I'm familiar with how it works and why it is so useful. I also know that when the data people do the analysis, they set up the tests and let the computers perform thousands of runs to get a proper sample distribution. Even hundreds can get to good data, but 2? It's neat info at that point. And, for those of us doing what the OP did it, based on the tools at hand, it's cool to see the comparisons.
Oh dear.
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Old 05-04-21, 12:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Badger6 View Post
I use the outputs of Bayesian analysis (other people do it, I read it and integrate it) in my work, I'm familiar with how it works and why it is so useful. I also know that when the data people do the analysis, they set up the tests and let the computers perform thousands of runs to get a proper sample distribution. Even hundreds can get to good data, but 2? It's neat info at that point.
I'm confused. You seem to be trying to analyze the OP's experiment in light of what RChung was saying about Bayes theorem, but his comments in that direction weren't in reference to the OP's experimental setup.

Similarly, while I wouldn't argue that the OP's sampling is adequate to draw any firm conclusions, I don't see what this has to do with the iteration counts in the experiments that you use the results from. These sorts of numbers mean wildly different things in different contexts.

Last edited by HTupolev; 05-04-21 at 12:44 AM.
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Old 05-04-21, 06:23 AM
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Not to be mean for this topic, but it's kind of a crap or get off the pot kind of thing. You either do your own fruitful testing to be a faster/better cyclist, or you don't. Method be damned.

Roll down test, drums, rollers, virtual elevation, fancy new Gibli aero sensor, tunnel, velodrome, out/back.......etc.....

One simple visual for folks on this one that want to try to poke holes without doing the improvement work themselves is to go turn on a light switch in their house. Did the light come on? Flip again, did it turn off? We use that idea in industry a LOT with systematic problem solving as a part of kaizen/lean. You have a theory something is messing with the equipment. If you test theory and see a result, then return it to the "bad state" also. On/off/on. If the trend follows, you might be onto a possible fix.

Out/back for several runs can be like that.

Back in the day you all think Obree had a tunnel or slew of sensors? His first tunnel visit was that Endura video he did that's up on youtube trying to figure out which old school banned TT position was fastest. Never before that. Somehow he made it work.

Get out there and make it happen. Don't sit around the forum and poke holes in people's stuff from the comfort of home.
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Old 05-04-21, 06:46 AM
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This thread is one of the most ridiculous things. Aero helmets have “evidently mattered” since the 1984 Olympics where famous names like Connie Carpenter, Alexi Grewal, Nelson Vails and Mark Gorski powered USA cycling to medals domination. In ‘89 Greg Lemond took the Giro Aerohead, an aero helmet which went into production two years earlier, to one of the most famous and stunning Tour de France victories ever.

But today, more than 30 years later, we’ve got a bunch of yokels arguing over how to show aero matters? Why don’t you also start a thread taking on other unproven and controversial topics like the Earth not being the center of the cosmos? I’m really embarrassed for you people…
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Old 05-04-21, 07:11 AM
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Originally Posted by chaadster View Post
This thread is one of the most ridiculous things. Aero helmets have “evidently mattered” since the 1984 Olympics where famous names like Connie Carpenter, Alexi Grewal, Nelson Vails and Mark Gorski powered USA cycling to medals domination. In ‘89 Greg Lemond took the Giro Aerohead, an aero helmet which went into production two years earlier, to one of the most famous and stunning Tour de France victories ever.

But today, more than 30 years later, we’ve got a bunch of yokels arguing over how to show aero matters? Why don’t you also start a thread taking on other unproven and controversial topics like the Earth not being the center of the cosmos? I’m really embarrassed for you people…
Geez, lighten up, it was just supposed to be a fun topic where I did an A/B test of the helmets I have sitting around, and to show folks that are looking for more speed that maybe just switching their helmet can help. It wasn't really supposed to be a novel take on anything.
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Old 05-04-21, 07:54 AM
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Originally Posted by HTupolev View Post
I'm confused. You seem to be trying to analyze the OP's experiment in light of what RChung was saying about Bayes theorem, but his comments in that direction weren't in reference to the OP's experimental setup.

Similarly, while I wouldn't argue that the OP's sampling is adequate to draw any firm conclusions, I don't see what this has to do with the iteration counts in the experiments that you use the results from. These sorts of numbers mean wildly different things in different contexts.
They do mean different things, and I am not analyzing the OPs experiment in any quantitative sense, if anyone took that away, my apologies for being unclear. I am commenting that though I consider it to be non-scientific, probably better stated is as you said "sampling not adequate to draw firm conclusions," I do find it neat. It certainly confirms (proves) the known prior: aero helmets are "faster" or rather they save watts. I probably shouldn't reply to things like this when I am either about to go to bed, or soon after I wake up while drinking a cup of coffee.
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Old 05-05-21, 06:23 PM
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Originally Posted by hubcyclist View Post
Did some testing outside yesterday, made a short video. Enjoy/discuss

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_CDQIyGf7M
Are there any good looking aero helmets that are comfortable for everyday use? Found some look a bit odd and are warmer. Haven’t ridden in them though, just tried at the shop.
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Old 05-05-21, 07:34 PM
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Originally Posted by chaadster View Post
This thread is one of the most ridiculous things. Aero helmets have “evidently mattered” since the 1984 Olympics where famous names like Connie Carpenter, Alexi Grewal, Nelson Vails and Mark Gorski powered USA cycling to medals domination. In ‘89 Greg Lemond took the Giro Aerohead, an aero helmet which went into production two years earlier, to one of the most famous and stunning Tour de France victories ever.

But today, more than 30 years later, we’ve got a bunch of yokels arguing over how to show aero matters? Why don’t you also start a thread taking on other unproven and controversial topics like the Earth not being the center of the cosmos? I’m really embarrassed for you people…
Your nickname checks out.
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Old 05-05-21, 08:33 PM
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I tried one of these on my helmet facing forward. Thought I could buy some cheap speed. It didn't make me any faster.

https://www.partycity.com/arrow-thro...7CLia%7CGoogle
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Old 05-06-21, 04:52 AM
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Originally Posted by kosmo886 View Post
Are there any good looking aero helmets that are comfortable for everyday use? Found some look a bit odd and are warmer. Haven’t ridden in them though, just tried at the shop.
Yeah the thing with aero helmets is that some I'm familiar with (and the one I personally have) do have a bit of a funny look, I think Tyler (vegan cyclist) has a video where he shows off a bunch of helmets and has a rather funny analogy for how certain helmets make ones' head look. The Lazer helmet I have actually has a sliding mechanism where you can make it aero or pull back to increase ventilation to the head, so there's that. My club's road racing team has a deal on these this year (I'm not getting one because I don't think I'll be racing enough to qualify for the discount) and it looks like a good balance of aero and ventilation https://www.cyclingweekly.com/review...-ignite-helmet
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