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difference between single and double front of saddle?

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difference between single and double front of saddle?

Old 05-14-21, 06:47 AM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by Sy Reene View Post
I don't really understand the stubby nosed appeal. Is it an appearance thing? I never ride sitting on the nose of my non-stubby saddle, nor find the nose to be in the way. So what is gained by having that last ~4cm lopped off the front (a bit of weight savings)? I considered the Selle Italia "Boost" version of the SP-01, but didn't see any advantage so I've been happy with the standard. FWIW, the stubby version seems to be priced higher also.
You've kind of answered your own question right here. Before moving to a short nosed saddle I was using a Fizik Aliante (very conventional thin long nose) and found it pretty uncomfortable riding on the nose. I actually find I can ride quite well on the nose of my shorter saddle as it's a bit wider and flatter. Looking at them side by side it's about an inch shorter overall.

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Old 05-14-21, 06:58 AM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by cubewheels View Post
Such sitting position (forward) also offers huge advantage to those who does lots of steep climbs.
How does a forward saddle position help in a steep climb?
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Old 05-14-21, 07:28 AM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by PeteHski View Post
You've kind of answered your own question right here. Before moving to a short nosed saddle I was using a Fizik Aliante (very conventional thin long nose) and found it pretty uncomfortable riding on the nose. I actually find I can ride quite well on the nose of my shorter saddle as it's a bit wider and flatter. Looking at them side by side it's about an inch shorter overall.
I guess it can depend on the saddles being compared. My impression looking at the Selle Italia, is that yes, the nose is wider on the stubby ("Boost") version, but that is solely because the extension is removed off the front where it continues to narrow on the standard saddle. Ie. if you draw a line on the standard saddle where it is cut short, the width at that point is really not much different. And if you don't sit on the saddle past that point anyway, it wouldn't matter.


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Old 05-14-21, 08:57 AM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by terrymorse View Post
How does a forward saddle position help in a steep climb?
I do it all the time, it makes steep climbs easier and more comfortable than not moving forward.

Skip to 2:25 minute of this video. What Simon forgot to mention is that moving forward also opens the hip angle where the core muscles can work more efficiently and promotes better breathing, more power, in short. Of course, as Simon also mentioned, it's not comfortable to sit in the nose (since he's using single nose saddle in the video). That wasn't an issue with double nose saddle and I can practically sit in the nose in long climbs without experiencing any discomfort. It's a big advantage of double nose saddles over single nose.
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Old 05-14-21, 09:12 AM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by ericcox View Post
I may have to try one of these double nose saddles if I do decide to look at time trials....
I use double nose saddle on a road bike for road rides. I never TT but ironically, the double nose ISM PN1.1 is the most comfortable saddle I've had on a road bike.

The rest of my saddles are single nose with relief channel.

ISM website mentions their double nose PN1.1 is designed for road use too, not just TT or triathlon.
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Old 05-14-21, 09:22 AM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by cubewheels View Post
... moving forward also opens the hip angle where the core muscles can work more efficiently and promotes better breathing, more power, in short.
Interesting, thanks. I don't think I've ever tried sitting forward in the saddle during a climb.

This source suggests the opposite, that sitting back on the saddle improves climbing by opening up the knee angle at the top of the pedal stroke:


...by sitting back on the saddle the knee angle will increase by a couple of degrees. This may seem small but we can also see from the Knee Angle graph that this could give 5-10% more power at this point in the stroke

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Old 05-14-21, 01:05 PM
  #32  
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...no consensus as to advantages of a double nose over single nose saddle....
Look at the art above. It's not double-nose. The ISMs are noseless. The 2 projections do not extend as far as any nose on a saddle with a nose. About half of the length on ISMs is there only to meet UCI requirements. You should view the ISMs as effectively very short saddles without noses. Check their website - it used to explain what they're doing.

I don't really understand the stubby nosed appeal. Is it an appearance thing?
For sure. I look a lot better after a ride on my Selle SMP than I did on other saddles. That's because I feel a lot better. I tried several saddles before the Selle SMP - Avocet Touring, Fizik Aliante, Serfas Rx, Brooks B17 Imperial, ISM (I forgot which model) and my weight bearing parts always got numb after 7 (Avocet) -15 (Brooks) miles. No numbness with the Selle SMP which is effectively a stubby saddle, because one's bits do not actually rest on the saddle. My bet is that the stubby saddle proliferation is a godsend for folks who get numb on normal saddles.
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Old 05-14-21, 01:28 PM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by Sy Reene View Post
I guess it can depend on the saddles being compared. My impression looking at the Selle Italia, is that yes, the nose is wider on the stubby ("Boost") version, but that is solely because the extension is removed off the front where it continues to narrow on the standard saddle. Ie. if you draw a line on the standard saddle where it is cut short, the width at that point is really not much different. And if you don't sit on the saddle past that point anyway, it wouldn't matter.


So if you donít ever sit on the very front part of the long saddle then would it not be logical to chop it off and go with the shorter version?

For those riders who like to move around a lot on the saddle then a longer flatter saddle makes more sense. I tend to prefer a shorter, slightly wider saddle. I can still get forward on it but I donít ride like that very often and prefer a more defined primary position. I also prefer a slight kick up at the back, which I find useful when climbing seated.
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Old 05-14-21, 02:00 PM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by PeteHski View Post
So if you donít ever sit on the very front part of the long saddle then would it not be logical to chop it off and go with the shorter version?

For those riders who like to move around a lot on the saddle then a longer flatter saddle makes more sense. I tend to prefer a shorter, slightly wider saddle. I can still get forward on it but I donít ride like that very often and prefer a more defined primary position. I also prefer a slight kick up at the back, which I find useful when climbing seated.
Well yeah.. if you don't ever sit on the very front, then chop it off. But I wasn't understanding how this in itself makes the shorter saddles any more or less comfortable than standard saddles. All brands now seems to offer these, and from what I gather, they seem pretty popular now -- I was just curious why. Many of these stubby saddles seemed to start appearing only about 3-4 years ago if memory serves.

I guess the longer saddle is good for 'just in case' instances that there is a rare instance where riding that far up makes sense.

If the short saddle thing came about to solve for UCI restrictions, I think it's safe to say that most of us here aren't worried about that too much.
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Old 05-14-21, 02:30 PM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by terrymorse View Post
Interesting, thanks. I don't think I've ever tried sitting forward in the saddle during a climb.

This source suggests the opposite, that sitting back on the saddle improves climbing by opening up the knee angle at the top of the pedal stroke:




Itís not saying the opposite, but rather referrimg to a different type of climbing which they did not specify, but which would be long, shallow climbs. On steep climbs, you scooch forward to keep your weight on top of the pedals, pull on the bars, and to keep the front wheel on the road.
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Old 05-14-21, 02:48 PM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by terrymorse View Post
How does a forward saddle position help in a steep climb?
I don't know, but I find myself instinctively moving forward on my saddle when the road kicks up, and it seems to help.
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Old 05-14-21, 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Sy Reene View Post
Well yeah.. if you don't ever sit on the very front, then chop it off. But I wasn't understanding how this in itself makes the shorter saddles any more or less comfortable than standard saddles. All brands now seems to offer these, and from what I gather, they seem pretty popular now -- I was just curious why. Many of these stubby saddles seemed to start appearing only about 3-4 years ago if memory serves.

I guess the longer saddle is good for 'just in case' instances that there is a rare instance where riding that far up makes sense.

If the short saddle thing came about to solve for UCI restrictions, I think it's safe to say that most of us here aren't worried about that too much.
I see what you mean. What Iíve noticed is that the latest crop of shorter saddles also tend to be a bit wider than average (and often available in even wider widths), which just happens to suit me. I also like the cutouts, which again nearly all the latest short nosed saddles seem to have. I know longer saddles often have a cutout theses days too, but many still donít. The Fizik Tempo Argo I mentioned is the most comfortable saddle Iíve ever had. But I agree itís comfort is not really due to the shorter length. Itís not actually all that short compared to some others. Maybe an inch shorter than my Aliante. I just get on with the shape and the padding is spot on for me. Not too hard or overly soft. Itís a saddle I can ride for 6+ hours without any discomfort. I canít say the same for others Iíve owned.
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Old 05-14-21, 03:03 PM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by PeteHski View Post
So if you donít ever sit on the very front part of the long saddle then would it not be logical to chop it off and go with the shorter version?
Although a questionable place to rest your bottom, the saddle nose has other uses.

Maintaining control of your machine is the main one.
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Old 05-14-21, 03:09 PM
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Originally Posted by terrymorse View Post
Although a questionable place to rest your bottom, the saddle nose has other uses.

Maintaining control of your machine is the main one.
I agree but you would have to go to the extreme to make any real difference. I havenít fallen off the bike since losing an inch of saddle nose. Control feels the same.
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Old 05-14-21, 03:09 PM
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Originally Posted by chaadster View Post
On steep climbs, you scooch forward to keep your weight on top of the pedals, pull on the bars, and to keep the front wheel on the road.
I donít think I do that on steep grades.

I press back into the saddle, lower my shoulders, and rock my shoulders on each downstroke.

If I feel myself slipping off the back of the saddle, Iíll also pull forward on the bars on each downstroke.

The steeper the grade, the more my torso moves.
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Old 05-14-21, 04:02 PM
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That double nose looks like a sure what to shish kabob my testicles. Hard enough keeping them out of the way with a single nose.
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Old 05-14-21, 05:04 PM
  #42  
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Shorter nose saddle is less likely to catch when riding out of the saddle or getting back on the saddle after having gotten off at a stop. For people who still supertuck, also makes it easier to move back the posterior all the way to the seatpost.
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Old 05-14-21, 06:47 PM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by chaadster View Post
Itís not saying the opposite, but rather referrimg to a different type of climbing which they did not specify, but which would be long, shallow climbs. On steep climbs, you scooch forward to keep your weight on top of the pedals, pull on the bars, and to keep the front wheel on the road.
You must have some seriously steep roads around your area if keeping the front wheel on the ground is an issue.
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Old 05-14-21, 07:56 PM
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Originally Posted by terrymorse View Post
Interesting, thanks. I don't think I've ever tried sitting forward in the saddle during a climb.

This source suggests the opposite, that sitting back on the saddle improves climbing by opening up the knee angle at the top of the pedal stroke:
I used to do it before. Not as good as sitting at the nose of the saddle with a double nose saddle.

If you didn't move forward on the saddle and you're going up a steep climb, you'll be pulling harder on the handlebar and that robs you of energy. And it's easier on the back, glutes, and breathing for harder efforts during climbs if you open the hip angle by moving forward on your saddle. Results to more power.

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Old 05-14-21, 08:14 PM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by Dean V View Post
You must have some seriously steep roads around your area if keeping the front wheel on the ground is an issue.
Itís a helpful technique on steep climbs no matter where I find them.
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Old 05-15-21, 07:36 AM
  #46  
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Originally Posted by Dean V View Post
You must have some seriously steep roads around your area if keeping the front wheel on the ground is an issue.
On pavement, wheelies seem to become much easier around 12-14%. At grades of 15% and above, fore-aft movement is critical -- too far forward, the rear wheel can lose traction. These considerations intensify in wet or loose conditions.

I've never ridden an ISM, or any other split/cropped saddle, but then I appreciate having defined forward and rearward positions on the saddle as it is.
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Old 05-15-21, 01:30 PM
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Coming from a mountain bike background I instinctively sit forward on really steep climbs, but on shallower road climbs I think I tend to sit back more. But I don't actually think about it while riding. Our brains are pretty good at working out what works best for us and that isn't the same for everybody. You only have to look at the pro peloton climbing to see multiple different styles in use.
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Old 05-16-21, 12:12 AM
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Originally Posted by PeteHski View Post
This is correct. There is literally no consensus when it comes to saddle choice. Saddles come in all sorts of shapes and sizes, just like people's butts! Unfortunately there's a fair bit of trial and error involved in choosing a saddle, but I would start off with something more conventional than the ISM and see how it goes. Some shops have demo saddles to try too. I've been through a few saddles in my time, but I'm really liking this one from Fizik. It's pretty easy on the man gear with the cut-out and comfortable for all day endurance rides. The best saddles are the ones you don't actually notice when riding.

Hey I just ordered this too to see what all the hype is about! But I wonder if it has enough rail length for my 15 mm offset Cannondale seat post. My Ergon SR3 Pro is mounted pretty far forward.
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Old 05-16-21, 12:28 AM
  #49  
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Originally Posted by Bulette View Post
At grades of 15% and above, fore-aft movement is critical -- too far forward, the rear wheel can lose traction
I never experienced loss of rear wheel traction on >15% gradient climbs even when I'm sitted at the tip of the nose of the saddle.

Maybe because my saddle is adjusted all the way back on the rails.

Otherwise, it's good sitting at the front of the saddle in steep climbs, it's a more relaxed position
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Old 05-16-21, 02:28 AM
  #50  
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Originally Posted by motopokep View Post
If that were true, why wouldn't all racers put this saddle on their road/racing bike?
Originally Posted by big john View Post
Put that thing on your bike and go ride for 8 hours and tell us how comfortable it is. It's not a bar stool, on a bike your legs move and do work, a big tractor seat would get in the way.
Originally Posted by shelbyfv View Post
+1 I doubt most folks could ride something like that for more than an hour unless they were on a "sit up and beg" cruiser. A lot of cycling stuff seems odd to people who don't ride. Probably the same with any activity.
I biked a "pre-Birthday Ride" a few weeks ago on my Day 6. Not as bad as many would think. Ride was 71 miles.

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