Enigma bikes: my tale of woe
05-22-21, 07:17 AM
#52
Space Ghost
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: NYC
Posts: 1,762
Bikes: Bridgestone, Fuji, Iro, Jamis, Gary Fisher, GT, Scott, Specialized and more
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 292 Post(s)
Liked 411 Times
in
317 Posts
The real enigma is how they’re gonna stay in business hahahaha!
Rotten double-talking hucksters...
Rotten double-talking hucksters...
05-22-21, 05:10 PM
#53
Full Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 262
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 31 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 33 Times
in
16 Posts
A question for metallurgists: is it possible to estimate mileage based on the state of the frame alone?
A desire to run clean handlebars
Different bike, same aesthetic
and a genuine indifference to stats means I simply haven't a clue how far this bike has gone. I know roughly how long my typical ride is (but that varies with the season and other things), and roughly how often this bike gets out (again, very variable). When questioned, I will do my best to come up with a decent estimate, but over the course of a decade, with no actual records, it's just impossible to know.
All this to say, I felt that my honesty was used against me when I relayed my estimate to the frame builder. 40,000 miles! Maybe more! Maybe less, but still many thousands! Certainly sounds like a hell of a lot to people who aren't completely in love with cycling and don't have multiple bikes to spread the load.
So we're kind of left with looking at the time, rather than the mileage, which cannot be definitely proven unless I'd have tagged myself with a GPS tracker and given the security services the OK to log me (GCHQ in the UK, NSA across the pond - surely they’re plugged into Strava by now). I jest, but my perplexion is real.
Is it possible to examine a frame with a tricorder or whatever and make a truly educated guess about the mileage?
I'm assuming it's highly unlikely, given all the myriad variables; and it's anybody's guess if a tricorder could be so configured.
A desire to run clean handlebars
Different bike, same aesthetic
and a genuine indifference to stats means I simply haven't a clue how far this bike has gone. I know roughly how long my typical ride is (but that varies with the season and other things), and roughly how often this bike gets out (again, very variable). When questioned, I will do my best to come up with a decent estimate, but over the course of a decade, with no actual records, it's just impossible to know.
All this to say, I felt that my honesty was used against me when I relayed my estimate to the frame builder. 40,000 miles! Maybe more! Maybe less, but still many thousands! Certainly sounds like a hell of a lot to people who aren't completely in love with cycling and don't have multiple bikes to spread the load.
So we're kind of left with looking at the time, rather than the mileage, which cannot be definitely proven unless I'd have tagged myself with a GPS tracker and given the security services the OK to log me (GCHQ in the UK, NSA across the pond - surely they’re plugged into Strava by now). I jest, but my perplexion is real.
Is it possible to examine a frame with a tricorder or whatever and make a truly educated guess about the mileage?
I'm assuming it's highly unlikely, given all the myriad variables; and it's anybody's guess if a tricorder could be so configured.
Last edited by 905; 05-23-21 at 10:35 AM. Reason: perfectionist
Likes For 905:
05-23-21, 02:20 PM
#54
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2018
Location: Fargo ND
Posts: 766
Bikes: Time Scylon, Lynskey R350, Ritchey Breakaway, Ritchey Double Switchback, Lynskey Ridgeline, ICAN Fatbike
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 386 Post(s)
Liked 443 Times
in
241 Posts
As much as it pains me to say this, it seems to me that you don't need a metallurgist, you need a Solicitor. This all depends on what"lifetime" means in the context of Enigma's warranty when you bought the bike.
05-23-21, 02:42 PM
#55
Full Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 262
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 31 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 33 Times
in
16 Posts
There's another tale of Enigma woe over here, from 2012. His was in fact replaced, but it took a whole year!
Elsewhere, I've been urged to just "move on" quite a few times at this point, as if I've been staring disconsolately out a window for months…
Elsewhere, I've been urged to just "move on" quite a few times at this point, as if I've been staring disconsolately out a window for months…
Last edited by 905; 05-24-21 at 09:46 AM. Reason: post missing?
05-24-21, 07:19 AM
#56
Full Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 262
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 31 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 33 Times
in
16 Posts
No need to provide screenshots* (unless you want them for your scrapbook), I quite openly give links. I'm all about the transparency.
As to the banning, that was not at all related to this. (Link provided on the site. Naturally.) Anyone who travels as much as I have on the internets and is outspoken is bound to come to grief from time to time.
And yes. I've posted all over. That was the point.
*The post I was referring to has disappeared. Just so you don't think I'm mad or anything. ['Mad' in the UK = crazy]
As to the banning, that was not at all related to this. (Link provided on the site. Naturally.) Anyone who travels as much as I have on the internets and is outspoken is bound to come to grief from time to time.
And yes. I've posted all over. That was the point.
*The post I was referring to has disappeared. Just so you don't think I'm mad or anything. ['Mad' in the UK = crazy]
Last edited by 905; 05-24-21 at 08:38 AM.
05-24-21, 07:45 AM
#57
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: TC, MN
Posts: 39,505
Bikes: R3 Disc, Haanjo
Mentioned: 353 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20791 Post(s)
Liked 9,430 Times
in
4,662 Posts
Posting on multiple sub-forums within BF wouldn't be cool, but I don't see the issue with posting on boards other than BF. I can see how it might be a bit tiring for individuals to see posts about the same issue if they're members elsewhere, but tough noogies - he's done nothing wrong here, IMO.
Why not both? Sure, it's self-serving, but if I was thinking about purchasing from Enigma, hearing this kind of feedback, and seeing Enigma's response, would be valuable in my decision making process.
Why not both? Sure, it's self-serving, but if I was thinking about purchasing from Enigma, hearing this kind of feedback, and seeing Enigma's response, would be valuable in my decision making process.
Last edited by WhyFi; 05-24-21 at 07:49 AM.
Likes For WhyFi:
05-24-21, 08:05 AM
#58
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: TC, MN
Posts: 39,505
Bikes: R3 Disc, Haanjo
Mentioned: 353 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20791 Post(s)
Liked 9,430 Times
in
4,662 Posts
Until this thread, OP hasn't been here since 2018. He previously posted about this same issue in 2016 Cracked ti So, any rules broken? Maybe not. Bad manners, poor etiquette, exploitation of the platform by someone who normally has no interest? Yes, but JMO.
In the case of the OP, I think that it's genuinely valuable, from a consumer's prospective, to have an update on a long-running problem and to see the manufacturer's response to that problem.
05-24-21, 08:07 AM
#59
Full Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 262
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 31 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 33 Times
in
16 Posts
Until this thread, OP hasn't been here since 2018. He previously posted about this same issue in 2016 Cracked ti So, any rules broken? Maybe not. Bad manners, poor etiquette, exploitation of the platform by someone who normally has no interest? Yes, but JMO.
I've actually made a fair number of contributions over the years (here's one on the very uncontentious subject of helmets), but am not going to apologise for not spending all my time here.
As for manners, netiquette, etc., people can judge for themselves.
Likes For 905:
05-24-21, 08:36 AM
#60
Expired Member
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: TN
Posts: 11,339
Mentioned: 37 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3584 Post(s)
Liked 5,186 Times
in
2,631 Posts
I've deleted a few posts but I'll leave this link. Cracked ti Folks can make their own judgements about what is going on here. 
05-24-21, 08:43 AM
#61
Full Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 262
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 31 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 33 Times
in
16 Posts
Flogging a dead horse means to waste effort on something when there is no chance of succeeding. While it is probably true that I won't get satisfaction from the framebuilder, there are other types of satisfaction, Horatio.
Also, while I am not interested in counter-attacking you, it is generally considered poor netiquette to turn threads into swiss cheese.
Also, while I am not interested in counter-attacking you, it is generally considered poor netiquette to turn threads into swiss cheese.
Last edited by 905; 05-24-21 at 09:44 AM. Reason: mmm, swiss cheese
05-24-21, 10:16 AM
#62
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2018
Location: Fargo ND
Posts: 766
Bikes: Time Scylon, Lynskey R350, Ritchey Breakaway, Ritchey Double Switchback, Lynskey Ridgeline, ICAN Fatbike
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 386 Post(s)
Liked 443 Times
in
241 Posts
A quick web search found several services like this one:
https://www.chatwithsolicitor.co.uk/
It will cost you 5 GBP for a one week trial. Still can't afford to talk with a solicitor? This is why civilized people create courts and define the exact meaning to words used in contracts and laws. Someone who knows what these words actually mean can give you the best advice on this situation. I honestly don't know if Enigma has a legal obligation to repair or replace your frame. But it sounds like 5 GBP will tell you if they owe you a refund or replacement of the frame.
https://www.chatwithsolicitor.co.uk/
It will cost you 5 GBP for a one week trial. Still can't afford to talk with a solicitor? This is why civilized people create courts and define the exact meaning to words used in contracts and laws. Someone who knows what these words actually mean can give you the best advice on this situation. I honestly don't know if Enigma has a legal obligation to repair or replace your frame. But it sounds like 5 GBP will tell you if they owe you a refund or replacement of the frame.
05-24-21, 11:26 AM
#63
Member
About 25 years ago I moved to the UK and took up cycling, but you probably don't want my life story, so I'll cut straight to the woe.
What am I looking at, you ask? That, my roadie friends, is the bad end of an Enigma, a make built not far down the road from me here in currently rainy East Sussex. It's 10 years old, and has seen a fair amount of mileage but nothing extraordinary (40k would be a stretch. I don't use a computer, so that's an educated guess.)
This was in fact the third frame failure. Last year the dropout dropped out
and four years previous, the bottom bracket first made its displeasure known (I wrote about it here).
This was sold to me with a lifetime warranty, which is now not being honoured unless I pony up the equivalent of $850 "for materials". I would be a fool to give them another dime, so that's that, I guess. They also said that 10 years is a reasonable lifespan for a high end bike, which I kind of wish they'd mentioned in the first place, as I would've gone elsewhere.
My reason for sharing these pictures is simple. If you're looking to buy an Enigma, consider this another data point. If you already happen to have one and it's given you no trouble, great: may it long continue. I wish you more luck than I've had.
What am I looking at, you ask? That, my roadie friends, is the bad end of an Enigma, a make built not far down the road from me here in currently rainy East Sussex. It's 10 years old, and has seen a fair amount of mileage but nothing extraordinary (40k would be a stretch. I don't use a computer, so that's an educated guess.)
This was in fact the third frame failure. Last year the dropout dropped out
and four years previous, the bottom bracket first made its displeasure known (I wrote about it here).
This was sold to me with a lifetime warranty, which is now not being honoured unless I pony up the equivalent of $850 "for materials". I would be a fool to give them another dime, so that's that, I guess. They also said that 10 years is a reasonable lifespan for a high end bike, which I kind of wish they'd mentioned in the first place, as I would've gone elsewhere.
My reason for sharing these pictures is simple. If you're looking to buy an Enigma, consider this another data point. If you already happen to have one and it's given you no trouble, great: may it long continue. I wish you more luck than I've had.
I've seen better welds in a High School shop class.
05-25-21, 03:33 PM
#66
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2021
Posts: 7,065
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3617 Post(s)
Liked 3,909 Times
in
2,474 Posts
Then there's always an inevitable trade off between frame weight and fatigue life. But if I bought a high-end Ti frame I would fully expect it to go the distance, especially with a literal lifetime warranty! That's sounds like an "all-you-can-eat" kind of deal to me.
05-26-21, 12:00 AM
#67
Full Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 262
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 31 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 33 Times
in
16 Posts
My wife told me I shouldn't have been so honest… she didn't mean lie, but by putting a figure out there (I've said around 40k), I've supplied some rope for a hanging party. Or at least for them to base their baseless conjecture that I treated the bike to a hard life. If nothing else it was a salutary reminder of why lawyers on TV dramas always say "Don't say a word until I get there."
My journey to computerlessness began quite awhile ago. I sometimes use an online mapping tool to amuse myself after a ride, but don't compile statistics. Nor did it help that I don't keep track of which bike I take out. Am happy to admit this one got the bulk of my miles, the others chiefly being ridden when the weather was iffy.
All of which is to say, my guesstimate has such a large range as to be entirely useless, and I should never have brought it up in the first place.
Can I also add, I'm grateful to the Bike Forums folk for not closing this thread down as has happened elsewhere. It's not just a story about one disgruntled man and his bike and the company that sold it to him.
My journey to computerlessness began quite awhile ago. I sometimes use an online mapping tool to amuse myself after a ride, but don't compile statistics. Nor did it help that I don't keep track of which bike I take out. Am happy to admit this one got the bulk of my miles, the others chiefly being ridden when the weather was iffy.
All of which is to say, my guesstimate has such a large range as to be entirely useless, and I should never have brought it up in the first place.
Can I also add, I'm grateful to the Bike Forums folk for not closing this thread down as has happened elsewhere. It's not just a story about one disgruntled man and his bike and the company that sold it to him.
Last edited by 905; 05-26-21 at 12:05 AM. Reason: If you get it wrong, get it right next time
05-26-21, 07:04 AM
#68
Newbie
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 2
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Well I know now not to even consider Enigma and I am in process of looking into custom builds.
Interestingly enough though - all these forum posts about this particular experience doesnt come up on a google search so Enigma likely safe in that regard.
Interestingly enough though - all these forum posts about this particular experience doesnt come up on a google search so Enigma likely safe in that regard.
05-26-21, 11:29 AM
#69
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 5,414
Bikes: Colnago, Van Dessel, Factor, Cervelo, Ritchey
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3573 Post(s)
Liked 6,512 Times
in
2,630 Posts
Can I also add, I'm grateful to the Bike Forums folk for not closing this thread down as has happened elsewhere. It's not just a story about one disgruntled man and his bike and the company that sold it to him.
Likes For tomato coupe:
05-26-21, 05:24 PM
#71
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 2,433
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 741 Post(s)
Liked 412 Times
in
230 Posts
For me, I have a couple of views. Where is that line between defect and age? Even though companies may not say it outright, they are not giving a lifetime warranty. I expect to get a reasonable lifespan out of a product defined by what most people experience using the product in a similar fashion and my own previous experience. I wouldn’t expect a frame to last me 10 years and I would expect to not have issues under five years.
05-27-21, 02:30 AM
#72
Full Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 262
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 31 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 33 Times
in
16 Posts
For the time being I'm going to refrain from commenting on this further. I'll leave you with this.
05-27-21, 09:51 PM
#73
bike whisperer
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Melbourne, Oz
Posts: 9,517
Bikes: https://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=152015&p=1404231
Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1513 Post(s)
Liked 707 Times
in
501 Posts
All I've gotta say is, WTF is a warranty worth, if the company providing it can turn around and alter the terms down the track? Doesn't sound like how a contract works to me.
__________________
Sheldon Brown's bike info ~~~ Park Tools repair help
Half-step triple, using double gear ~~~ 6400 STI rebuild walkthrough ~~~ Want 8/9/10s @126mm OLD? OCR. ~~~ Shimano cassette body overhaul ~~~ Ergopower Escape wear repair ~~~ PSA: drivetrain wear
List of US/Canada bike co-ops ~~~ Global list
Sheldon Brown's bike info ~~~ Park Tools repair help
Half-step triple, using double gear ~~~ 6400 STI rebuild walkthrough ~~~ Want 8/9/10s @126mm OLD? OCR. ~~~ Shimano cassette body overhaul ~~~ Ergopower Escape wear repair ~~~ PSA: drivetrain wear
List of US/Canada bike co-ops ~~~ Global list
05-28-21, 08:44 AM
#74
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 2,433
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 741 Post(s)
Liked 412 Times
in
230 Posts
It isn’t, but the only remedy you have is to then sue them. That will cost more time and money then it is worth. Companies know that and so there isn’t a legal motivation to honor their warranties.
05-28-21, 08:54 AM
#75
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 8,463
Mentioned: 67 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3015 Post(s)
Liked 2,318 Times
in
1,392 Posts
The question posed by this bike/company/situation is definitely a riddle that needs to be solved.
Likes For seypat:
