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And you thought it would never happen

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Road Cycling “It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them. Thus you remember them as they actually are, while in a motor car only a high hill impresses you, and you have no such accurate remembrance of country you have driven through as you gain by riding a bicycle.” -- Ernest Hemingway

And you thought it would never happen

Old 05-27-21, 04:07 PM
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Originally Posted by genejockey
Do you suppose Shimano sometime files patents on things they have no intention of pursuing, just to throw off the patent-watchers (the folks trying to divine what the next generation of Dura Ace will be)? They probably have enough money to file frivolous patents.
funny you should write this. i was wondering if they were patenting it just because it is a dumb idea and they just wanted to kill it.

i read somewhere on the internet that the oil companies patented an infinite power source but they just want to keep it secret and sell oil to us to make money.
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Old 05-27-21, 04:13 PM
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Originally Posted by spelger
funny you should write this. i was wondering if they were patenting it just because it is a dumb idea and they just wanted to kill it.
Patents can be invalidated if you can prove the inventor/assignee didn't pursue them, but of course that requires litigation.

i read somewhere on the internet that the oil companies patented an infinite power source but they just want to keep it secret and sell oil to us to make money.
Did it look like this?
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Old 05-27-21, 04:43 PM
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Infinite power source is the sun. People in Seattle debate whether it exists. A popular theory is it sprouts from seed in May, blooms for 2 weeks in August and then dies.
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Old 05-27-21, 05:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest
Infinite power source is the sun. People in Seattle debate whether it exists. A popular theory is it sprouts from seed in May, blooms for 2 weeks in August and then dies.
You say that now, but in 5 Billion years you'll be singing a different tune.
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Old 05-27-21, 06:02 PM
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Yeah, nah.

Seems to me, there's a far more elegant way to move the master cylinders into the lever bodies; just pivot the brake levers at the very top, with actuator rods pointing back into the guts mounted however much necessary below the pivot point. Piece of piss.

I'm actually kinda stumped why they didn't do it this way in the first place for electronic shifting levers, unless it was just for economies of scale with the mechanical versions.
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Old 05-27-21, 06:09 PM
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If they really mean brake by wire...NO. I'd avoid that like the plague.
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Old 05-27-21, 06:33 PM
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I’d pass on that faster than I’d pass on those weird looking barefoot pedals.
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Old 05-27-21, 08:01 PM
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I will Not use SRAM's version.
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Old 05-27-21, 08:49 PM
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Originally Posted by genejockey
Patents can be invalidated if you can prove the inventor/assignee didn't pursue them, but of course that requires litigation.



Did it look like this?
A little bit. the one I saw was green.
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Old 05-27-21, 09:05 PM
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Originally Posted by JohnDThompson
Well, those big Mercedes Benz vehicles have a correspondingly big battery and an alternator to keep that battery charged while the engine is running, so there is considerably less risk of losing power to the brakes than on a bike with brakes controlled by a small battery with no charging mechanism on the bike.
I get that but they also need bigger brakes and with todays dynamo technology you could charge them with minimal drag and weight. Looking at Di2 which has been around a while it requires pretty minimal charging, I remember the reports of people doing RAAM with no charging at all. Surely with brakes they could take a more minimal battery drain. However I am no expert and still would want back ups to the system at least for a little while but it is the future at some point.
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Old 05-27-21, 09:30 PM
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Wow... Groovy Man...

Yet here's another thing I can't afford for my bicycle... HA
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Old 05-27-21, 09:54 PM
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Originally Posted by veganbikes
I get that but they also need bigger brakes and with todays dynamo technology you could charge them with minimal drag and weight. Looking at Di2 which has been around a while it requires pretty minimal charging, I remember the reports of people doing RAAM with no charging at all. Surely with brakes they could take a more minimal battery drain. However I am no expert and still would want back ups to the system at least for a little while but it is the future at some point.
I'm pretty sure you'd be looking at an order of magnitude or two for the difference in power draw between gears and brakes.
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Old 05-27-21, 10:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Kimmo
I'm pretty sure you'd be looking at an order of magnitude or two for the difference in power draw between gears and brakes.
Maybe I really don't know, I am not an engineer or an electrical expert by any means. I mean I could build some mean lego stuff and in grade school built a pretty strong bridge that beat the class but beyond that I leave it up to the professionals.
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Old 05-28-21, 02:07 AM
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A lot of trucks have air brakes. They are designed so the brakes cannot be released if the air pressure is too low.

The same should apply here. Make it so the bike can't be ridden if the battery controlling the brakes is flat. But then, what if the battery goes flat while you are out riding?
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Old 05-28-21, 02:36 AM
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Man, getting ABS on a road bike would be a game-changing development! I don’t know there’s a compelling argument for BBW in bikes absent that, but all-or-nothing is not how evolution works.

As to the question of why not move the fluid reservoir from the lever, I’d think that may be for the sake of a manual backup system. If the electronics fail, physical connection could allow some brake actuation, though likely with less force/higher lever effort.

If that’s the case, the safety fears expressed upthread are misplaced, because such a system would be more robust than the zero backup systems we have now. If your brake cable head fatigues and snaps off— a friend just had this happen to his rear derailleur cable at the shifter— your brakes are good for naught. Same if you develop an actuator piston leak on conventional hydro brakes. Further, isolating the fluid system as much as possible from failure points enhances system integrity
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Old 05-28-21, 03:21 AM
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Good idea for people who think all change is automatically good.
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Old 05-28-21, 10:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Ferrouscious
I will Not use SRAM's version.
You funny.
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Old 05-28-21, 10:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Litespud
If we can operate fully electronic airliners, I think we can manage reliable electronic bicycles.
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Old 05-28-21, 10:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Lazyass
Good idea for people who think all change is automatically good.
Pneumatic tires! Grrr!
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Old 05-28-21, 10:57 PM
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Originally Posted by genejockey
Do you suppose Shimano sometime files patents on things they have no intention of pursuing, just to throw off the patent-watchers (the folks trying to divine what the next generation of Dura Ace will be)? They probably have enough money to file frivolous patents.
For a large company like Shimano, which presumably has in-house patent counsel, the cost of filing a patent application is probably less than one high end road bike. So it should file one regardless whether it intends to bring that invention to market.

Disclaimer: Not legal advice.
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Old 05-28-21, 11:07 PM
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Originally Posted by genejockey
Patents can be invalidated if you can prove the inventor/assignee didn't pursue them, but of course that requires litigation.
Wrong. Look at the number of U.S. patents granted per year:

U.S. Patent Statistics Summary Table, Calendar Years 1963 to 2020, 05/2021 update (uspto.gov)

Common sense tells you that most patented inventions do not make it to market. Patents can be invalidated by proving that the individual(s) who are named as inventor(s) did not actually invent any of the claimed inventions (among other ways to challenge the validity of an issued patent). This has nothing to do with whether the inventor(s) and/or the assignee ever tried to bring the patented inventions to market. Otherwise, there would be no non-practicing entities (commonly and often derogatorily referred to as patent trolls). Also, many patents are licensed by the inventor(s) or the assignee to third parties to bring to the market.

Disclaimer: Not legal advice, merely Internet debate.

Last edited by SoSmellyAir; 05-28-21 at 11:11 PM.
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Old 05-29-21, 02:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest
Pneumatic tires! Grrr!
Spinergy Rev-X wheels! No Spokes! Cool!
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Old 05-29-21, 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by SoSmellyAir
Wrong. Look at the number of U.S. patents granted per year:

U.S. Patent Statistics Summary Table, Calendar Years 1963 to 2020, 05/2021 update (uspto.gov)

Common sense tells you that most patented inventions do not make it to market. Patents can be invalidated by proving that the individual(s) who are named as inventor(s) did not actually invent any of the claimed inventions (among other ways to challenge the validity of an issued patent). This has nothing to do with whether the inventor(s) and/or the assignee ever tried to bring the patented inventions to market. Otherwise, there would be no non-practicing entities (commonly and often derogatorily referred to as patent trolls). Also, many patents are licensed by the inventor(s) or the assignee to third parties to bring to the market.

Disclaimer: Not legal advice, merely Internet debate.
It's possible I was misinformed and/or the law or interpretation of the law changed.

But your arguments don't really address the point, which was that invalidating a patent, or proving noninfringement - for whatever reason - generally involves some kind of litigation, which can be expensive and risky, so paying off the patent owner is generally cheaper, which is exactly why patent trolls exist, right? Because it's cheaper to settle than fight, or to just not go there in the first place.
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Old 05-29-21, 01:43 PM
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IMO dead end tech.

I believe the future of braking will be by electric servo motors which are part of the brake mechanism, same as with derailleurs already. It could be used with rim or disk brakes and with either wireless or wired connection, same as it is now with the derailleurs.

To first replace wire by hydraulic hoses, then have the fluid pressure electrically actuated from the brake levers... I say, chuck it, don't build new house on the old foundations.
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Old 05-29-21, 03:06 PM
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It seemed like a silly idea to me, since for the most part bikes and riders are light enough to brake efficiently with normal hand strength. Cars, of course, are MUCH heavier, and becoming more so all the time, so power brakes, then ABS, and now brake-by-wire, because the average person lacks the leg strength to stop a two ton car without some kind of assistance in a reasonable distance.

But then I realized that with the rise of Ebikes, which allow riders to go farther on less fitness, so that some folks who would not ride bikes at all are now able to ride a reasonable distance. People without the leg strength to climb a big hill without some kind of assist will find themselves at the top of hills with steep enough descents that anything less than average hand strength might be insufficient to descend safely. I mean, after all, even those of us who have been riding for years have generally quickly adopted new mechanical technologies that improve braking, or we'd still be running flexy single pivot caliper brakes like BITD.
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