And you thought it would never happen
05-29-21, 03:29 PM
#51
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2021
Posts: 5,069
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2567 Post(s)
Liked 2,755 Times
in
1,739 Posts
Originally Posted by chaadster
Man, getting ABS on a road bike would be a game-changing development! I don’t know there’s a compelling argument for BBW in bikes absent that, but all-or-nothing is not how evolution works.
As to the question of why not move the fluid reservoir from the lever, I’d think that may be for the sake of a manual backup system. If the electronics fail, physical connection could allow some brake actuation, though likely with less force/higher lever effort.
If that’s the case, the safety fears expressed upthread are misplaced, because such a system would be more robust than the zero backup systems we have now. If your brake cable head fatigues and snaps off— a friend just had this happen to his rear derailleur cable at the shifter— your brakes are good for naught. Same if you develop an actuator piston leak on conventional hydro brakes. Further, isolating the fluid system as much as possible from failure points enhances system integrity
As to the question of why not move the fluid reservoir from the lever, I’d think that may be for the sake of a manual backup system. If the electronics fail, physical connection could allow some brake actuation, though likely with less force/higher lever effort.
If that’s the case, the safety fears expressed upthread are misplaced, because such a system would be more robust than the zero backup systems we have now. If your brake cable head fatigues and snaps off— a friend just had this happen to his rear derailleur cable at the shifter— your brakes are good for naught. Same if you develop an actuator piston leak on conventional hydro brakes. Further, isolating the fluid system as much as possible from failure points enhances system integrity
You also have 2 independent braking systems on a bike (front and rear brakes) so that gives a safety redundancy too. Good point about cable brakes being totally dependent on the cable not failing. Bike cables never snap right?
ABS functionality actually seems to be the main benefit of this patent. That would be interesting for sure.
Likes For PeteHski:
05-29-21, 07:22 PM
#52
bike whisperer
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Melbourne, Oz
Posts: 9,485
Bikes: https://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=152015&p=1404231
Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1495 Post(s)
Liked 702 Times
in
497 Posts
Originally Posted by alo
A lot of trucks have air brakes. They are designed so the brakes cannot be released if the air pressure is too low.
The same should apply here. Make it so the bike can't be ridden if the battery controlling the brakes is flat. But then, what if the battery goes flat while you are out riding?
The same should apply here. Make it so the bike can't be ridden if the battery controlling the brakes is flat. But then, what if the battery goes flat while you are out riding?
Beginning to see the problem with this idea?
__________________
Sheldon Brown's bike info ~~~ Park Tools repair help
Half-step triple, using double gear ~~~ 6400 STI rebuild walkthrough ~~~ Want 8/9/10s @126mm OLD? OCR. ~~~ Shimano cassette body overhaul ~~~ Ergopower Escape wear repair ~~~ PSA: drivetrain wear
List of US/Canada bike co-ops ~~~ Global list
Sheldon Brown's bike info ~~~ Park Tools repair help
Half-step triple, using double gear ~~~ 6400 STI rebuild walkthrough ~~~ Want 8/9/10s @126mm OLD? OCR. ~~~ Shimano cassette body overhaul ~~~ Ergopower Escape wear repair ~~~ PSA: drivetrain wear
List of US/Canada bike co-ops ~~~ Global list
05-31-21, 11:29 AM
#53
Junior Member
I am not advocating fly by wire brakes. But if you use a Maxell 2032 rechargeable battery, a small magnet to induce charge, it might be possible to keep the brakes charged with no maintenance. If you kept the whole thing as one unit it might make a decent touring solution since yo would not need cables, or hoses just an extra brake?
05-31-21, 11:44 AM
#54
Full Member
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 313
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 123 Post(s)
Liked 83 Times
in
63 Posts
Originally Posted by spelger
funny you should write this. i was wondering if they were patenting it just because it is a dumb idea and they just wanted to kill it.
i read somewhere on the internet that the oil companies patented an infinite power source but they just want to keep it secret and sell oil to us to make money.
i read somewhere on the internet that the oil companies patented an infinite power source but they just want to keep it secret and sell oil to us to make money.
05-31-21, 06:33 PM
#55
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 551
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 237 Post(s)
Liked 224 Times
in
146 Posts
Originally Posted by spelger
funny you should write this. i was wondering if they were patenting it just because it is a dumb idea and they just wanted to kill it.
i read somewhere on the internet that the oil companies patented an infinite power source but they just want to keep it secret and sell oil to us to make money.
i read somewhere on the internet that the oil companies patented an infinite power source but they just want to keep it secret and sell oil to us to make money.
05-31-21, 08:03 PM
#56
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2021
Posts: 5,069
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2567 Post(s)
Liked 2,755 Times
in
1,739 Posts
Occam's razor applies here i.e. the reason why most people patent ideas is pretty obvious. Having to make other assumptions to arrive at an alternative explanation makes it somewhat less likely.
05-31-21, 08:07 PM
#57
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 2,430
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 739 Post(s)
Liked 410 Times
in
229 Posts
Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest
Infinite power source is the sun. People in Seattle debate whether it exists. A popular theory is it sprouts from seed in May, blooms for 2 weeks in August and then dies.
Likes For colnago62:
05-31-21, 09:44 PM
#58
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 1,410
Bikes: 2017 Specialized Allez Sprint Comp
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 849 Post(s)
Liked 343 Times
in
246 Posts
Originally Posted by genejockey
But then I realized that with the rise of Ebikes, which allow riders to go farther on less fitness, so that some folks who would not ride bikes at all are now able to ride a reasonable distance. People without the leg strength to climb a big hill without some kind of assist will find themselves at the top of hills with steep enough descents that anything less than average hand strength might be insufficient to descend safely. I mean, after all, even those of us who have been riding for years have generally quickly adopted new mechanical technologies that improve braking, or we'd still be running flexy single pivot caliper brakes like BITD.
From what I can tell, even motorcycles with 100+ HP weighing 500+lbs do not have power brakes.
05-31-21, 10:26 PM
#59
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: In the foothills of Los Angeles County
Posts: 22,022
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6185 Post(s)
Liked 6,174 Times
in
3,114 Posts
Originally Posted by Kimmo
Okay, how does this work? Presumably there are rather strong springs to provide all the braking power you might ever need, with the electric actuators holding the brakes open 98% of the time...
Beginning to see the problem with this idea?
Beginning to see the problem with this idea?
The Shimano system linked in the OP looks to be a booster type thing to allow fine control of the brake power. It's configured in such a way as to allow manual override if the system/battery fails. It does seem to be a totally unnecessary extravagance.
Some electric cars actuate the braking system with a pump which also creates an artificial pedal feel. Again, if there is a failure there is a mechanical ability to push through an apply the brake pressure the old fashioned way.
The advantage to this system is the ability to use regenerative braking. On light braking or gradual stops the brakes are not applied, instead the computer uses regenerative braking (the generator charges the battery) to slow the vehicle. The brakes on the wheels are only applied during hard stops.
So why have this on a bike? Other than fine control and the possibility of an anti-lock feature, it could be the first step toward regenerative braking for e-bikes.
Likes For big john:
05-31-21, 10:28 PM
#60
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: In the foothills of Los Angeles County
Posts: 22,022
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6185 Post(s)
Liked 6,174 Times
in
3,114 Posts
Originally Posted by smashndash
From what I can tell, even motorcycles with 100+ HP weighing 500+lbs do not have power brakes.
05-31-21, 10:39 PM
#61
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 1,410
Bikes: 2017 Specialized Allez Sprint Comp
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 849 Post(s)
Liked 343 Times
in
246 Posts
Originally Posted by big john
They don't,, but they can have 3 huge brake rotors and massive calipers with giant pads.
But actually I did some research. Looks like motorcycles have around 3x more leverage than bicycles do. Typical hand force to clamp force ratio for a bicycle hydraulic disc brake seems to be around 1:50 whereas typical ratios for motorcycles seems to be around 1:150.
https://bikerumor.com/2020/11/06/aas...brake-answers/
https://www.wristtwisters.com/thread...ylinder.48345/
It seems that motorcycles run their pads with literally 0 clearance to the rotors. They're more than willing to accept some power loss in exchange for higher leverage ratios. Constant brake rub isn't acceptable on pedal bicycles though, so maybe ebikes will have to bridge the gap.
05-31-21, 10:48 PM
#62
Full Member
Originally Posted by Litespud
Haptic feedback is already a feature of many electronic controls. My brother flew fully fly-by-wire Airbuses - pretty sure the little joysticks has artificial "mechanical feedback" built in - I'll ask him.
__________________
www.mp-aviation.com
www.mp-aviation.com
06-01-21, 06:58 AM
#63
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2021
Posts: 5,069
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2567 Post(s)
Liked 2,755 Times
in
1,739 Posts
Originally Posted by big john
So why have this on a bike? Other than fine control and the possibility of an anti-lock feature, it could be the first step toward regenerative braking for e-bikes.
Knowing the brake lever position/pressure would allow management of regen braking on an e-bike. In an electric car it's a bit different as regen braking is usually managed entirely by throttle position and the mechanical brakes are completely separate, working in parallel with regen braking. So if you lift off the throttle you always get regen braking and if you want to slow down more quickly you press the brake pedal to engage the disc brakes - similar to engine braking in an ICE car. But on an e-bike you don't always want regen braking every time you stop pedalling, since you might well just be coasting, so it needs to know whether or not you are on the brakes.
Likes For PeteHski:
06-01-21, 07:33 AM
#64
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: In the foothills of Los Angeles County
Posts: 22,022
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6185 Post(s)
Liked 6,174 Times
in
3,114 Posts
Originally Posted by PeteHski
+1
Knowing the brake lever position/pressure would allow management of regen braking on an e-bike. In an electric car it's a bit different as regen braking is usually managed entirely by throttle position and the mechanical brakes are completely separate, working in parallel with regen braking. So if you lift off the throttle you always get regen braking and if you want to slow down more quickly you press the brake pedal to engage the disc brakes - similar to engine braking in an ICE car. But on an e-bike you don't always want regen braking every time you stop pedalling, since you might well just be coasting, so it needs to know whether or not you are on the brakes.
Knowing the brake lever position/pressure would allow management of regen braking on an e-bike. In an electric car it's a bit different as regen braking is usually managed entirely by throttle position and the mechanical brakes are completely separate, working in parallel with regen braking. So if you lift off the throttle you always get regen braking and if you want to slow down more quickly you press the brake pedal to engage the disc brakes - similar to engine braking in an ICE car. But on an e-bike you don't always want regen braking every time you stop pedalling, since you might well just be coasting, so it needs to know whether or not you are on the brakes.
And I checked, when "one pedal" driving the brake lights do come on when you lift from the gas pedal.
06-01-21, 08:05 AM
#65
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2021
Posts: 5,069
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2567 Post(s)
Liked 2,755 Times
in
1,739 Posts
Originally Posted by big john
Some e-cars have the "one pedal" feature where you put the shifter in "low" and every time you lift from the accelerator you get heavy deceleration from regenerative braking. In other words, the computers can vary the load on the generator. When you apply the pedal lightly the deceleration is only from regen and the wheel brakes are not in play. The brake pads on these cars get very little wear.
And I checked, when "one pedal" driving the brake lights do come on when you lift from the gas pedal.
And I checked, when "one pedal" driving the brake lights do come on when you lift from the gas pedal.
The brake lights are simply controlled by the amount of deceleration, not brake pressure. So if you lift off the throttle you will see your brake lights coming on as you have observed.
06-01-21, 08:19 AM
#66
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: In the foothills of Los Angeles County
Posts: 22,022
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6185 Post(s)
Liked 6,174 Times
in
3,114 Posts
Originally Posted by PeteHski
I don't think that is true in practice. We have a couple of Teslas and when you lift completely off the throttle they go into maximum regen braking (smoothly ramped up). But if you only partially lift off the throttle you only get partial regen braking in proportion to how much you lift off. So you can drive the car with "one pedal" simply by feathering the throttle to control how much regen braking you are getting (up to the maximum regen braking available). But as soon as you get on the brake pedal you will already be getting maximum regen braking simply from lifting completely off the throttle and any additional braking force then comes from the disc brakes as the 2 systems work in parallel. There is no scenario where you are applying the brake pedal without activating the brake pads.
When you apply the brake pedal the computers decide how much wheel brake to apply, if any, and the pump applies the brakes, if needed, and pushes back against the pedal to create a pedal feel/resistance for the driver. In some driving situations the wheel brakes will not be used, therefore the pads last "forever".
If there is electrical or other system failure the pedal can overcome the pump system and apply the brakes.
In a Volt or a Bolt EV the regen can be pretty strong.
06-01-21, 08:28 AM
#67
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: In the foothills of Los Angeles County
Posts: 22,022
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6185 Post(s)
Liked 6,174 Times
in
3,114 Posts
I forgot they also had a paddle on the steering wheel to engage maximum regen which will stop the car without the brakes, according to this guy:
"The Bolt EV comes equipped with a Regen on Demand (RoD) paddle behind the left-side of the steering wheel. To use it, simply pull back against the RoD paddle, and it will apply the maximum amount of regenerative braking force available, without using the friction brakes. When pulled back, the RoD paddle will bring the vehicle to a complete stop in either driving mode (D or L). In Drive, the RoD paddle will provide up to 65 kW of regenerative braking power. In Low, it will provide up to 70 kW. Apparently, you can also hold the RoD paddle down in D while modulating the accelerator to mimic driving in L,"
"The Bolt EV comes equipped with a Regen on Demand (RoD) paddle behind the left-side of the steering wheel. To use it, simply pull back against the RoD paddle, and it will apply the maximum amount of regenerative braking force available, without using the friction brakes. When pulled back, the RoD paddle will bring the vehicle to a complete stop in either driving mode (D or L). In Drive, the RoD paddle will provide up to 65 kW of regenerative braking power. In Low, it will provide up to 70 kW. Apparently, you can also hold the RoD paddle down in D while modulating the accelerator to mimic driving in L,"
06-01-21, 02:13 PM
#68
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Upstate SC
Posts: 1,222
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 578 Post(s)
Liked 1,116 Times
in
525 Posts
The only way I would trust electronic braking on a bicycle would be if it were some type of electronic-assist braking. Sort of like power brakes on your car. Even if the electronics fail, you still have a mechanical connection between the pedal and the piston in the brake master cylinder. Without that fail safe, if the electronics fail, you'd have no brakes.
I had a BMW K1200LT motorcycle (about 800 lbs loaded and fueled up) that was equipped with electronically assisted power brakes. They were incredible. Just for giggles, while riding along where I was the only one on the road, I put the bike in neutral at around 50 MPH, turned the key off (which killed the electronic braking assist) and tried the brakes.
It was at that time that I decided that if I ever saw the warning light for the brake assist come on while I was riding, my ride was over.
I had a BMW K1200LT motorcycle (about 800 lbs loaded and fueled up) that was equipped with electronically assisted power brakes. They were incredible. Just for giggles, while riding along where I was the only one on the road, I put the bike in neutral at around 50 MPH, turned the key off (which killed the electronic braking assist) and tried the brakes.
It was at that time that I decided that if I ever saw the warning light for the brake assist come on while I was riding, my ride was over.
06-01-21, 07:01 PM
#69
Rhapsodic Laviathan
Originally Posted by WhyFi
Exactly. I'd want to see multiple redundancies and a good track record before I'd be an adopter.
06-01-21, 07:32 PM
#70
Rhapsodic Laviathan
Originally Posted by big john
On a tractor-trailer with air brakes only the trailer brakes are locked on when there is no air pressure. If a trailer is disconnected from the tractor air pressure, the brakes can be released by installing screw type devices at the brake actuators to manually force the brakes to release. This has nothing to do with bicycles and was a terrible analogy.
The Shimano system linked in the OP looks to be a booster type thing to allow fine control of the brake power. It's configured in such a way as to allow manual override if the system/battery fails. It does seem to be a totally unnecessary extravagance.
Some electric cars actuate the braking system with a pump which also creates an artificial pedal feel. Again, if there is a failure there is a mechanical ability to push through an apply the brake pressure the old fashioned way.
The advantage to this system is the ability to use regenerative braking. On light braking or gradual stops the brakes are not applied, instead the computer uses regenerative braking (the generator charges the battery) to slow the vehicle. The brakes on the wheels are only applied during hard stops.
So why have this on a bike? Other than fine control and the possibility of an anti-lock feature, it could be the first step toward regenerative braking for e-bikes.
The Shimano system linked in the OP looks to be a booster type thing to allow fine control of the brake power. It's configured in such a way as to allow manual override if the system/battery fails. It does seem to be a totally unnecessary extravagance.
Some electric cars actuate the braking system with a pump which also creates an artificial pedal feel. Again, if there is a failure there is a mechanical ability to push through an apply the brake pressure the old fashioned way.
The advantage to this system is the ability to use regenerative braking. On light braking or gradual stops the brakes are not applied, instead the computer uses regenerative braking (the generator charges the battery) to slow the vehicle. The brakes on the wheels are only applied during hard stops.
So why have this on a bike? Other than fine control and the possibility of an anti-lock feature, it could be the first step toward regenerative braking for e-bikes.
Likes For Jax Rhapsody:
06-01-21, 07:35 PM
#71
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2021
Posts: 5,069
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2567 Post(s)
Liked 2,755 Times
in
1,739 Posts
Originally Posted by Bald Paul
The only way I would trust electronic braking on a bicycle would be if it were some type of electronic-assist braking. Sort of like power brakes on your car. Even if the electronics fail, you still have a mechanical connection between the pedal and the piston in the brake master cylinder. Without that fail safe, if the electronics fail, you'd have no brakes.
I had a BMW K1200LT motorcycle (about 800 lbs loaded and fueled up) that was equipped with electronically assisted power brakes. They were incredible. Just for giggles, while riding along where I was the only one on the road, I put the bike in neutral at around 50 MPH, turned the key off (which killed the electronic braking assist) and tried the brakes.
It was at that time that I decided that if I ever saw the warning light for the brake assist come on while I was riding, my ride was over.
I had a BMW K1200LT motorcycle (about 800 lbs loaded and fueled up) that was equipped with electronically assisted power brakes. They were incredible. Just for giggles, while riding along where I was the only one on the road, I put the bike in neutral at around 50 MPH, turned the key off (which killed the electronic braking assist) and tried the brakes.
It was at that time that I decided that if I ever saw the warning light for the brake assist come on while I was riding, my ride was over.
Same applies with hydraulic disc brakes. Your only failsafe is in having 2 independent brakes.
Last edited by PeteHski; 06-01-21 at 07:51 PM.
06-01-21, 07:49 PM
#72
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2021
Posts: 5,069
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2567 Post(s)
Liked 2,755 Times
in
1,739 Posts
Originally Posted by big john
I don't know Tesla products but I am certified in GM e-cars. I retired in 2019 and braking was not my specialty but the amount of regen varies. The brake pedal is more of a sensing system than a traditional brake pedal which drives the master cylinder, either directly or through a booster.
When you apply the brake pedal the computers decide how much wheel brake to apply, if any, and the pump applies the brakes, if needed, and pushes back against the pedal to create a pedal feel/resistance for the driver. In some driving situations the wheel brakes will not be used, therefore the pads last "forever".
If there is electrical or other system failure the pedal can overcome the pump system and apply the brakes.
In a Volt or a Bolt EV the regen can be pretty strong.
When you apply the brake pedal the computers decide how much wheel brake to apply, if any, and the pump applies the brakes, if needed, and pushes back against the pedal to create a pedal feel/resistance for the driver. In some driving situations the wheel brakes will not be used, therefore the pads last "forever".
If there is electrical or other system failure the pedal can overcome the pump system and apply the brakes.
In a Volt or a Bolt EV the regen can be pretty strong.
06-01-21, 08:02 PM
#73
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: In the foothills of Los Angeles County
Posts: 22,022
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6185 Post(s)
Liked 6,174 Times
in
3,114 Posts
Originally Posted by PeteHski
Okay, that's a completely different system to what I'm used to. It sounds like GM are using the brake pedal to modulate/blend in regen braking. While Tesla use the throttle pedal to modulate regen braking (hence one-pedal driving) and the brakes are conventional, working in parallel with full regen. So you effectively brake by feathering the throttle and then if you want to brake harder than max regen allows you lift off completely and hit the brake pedal. Whenever you lift completely off the throttle you get full regen braking plus additional braking from the disc brakes when you hit the brake pedal. Again the pads last forever as most of the braking is done with regen. The disc brakes only provide braking force beyond what the regen can handle.
06-02-21, 06:36 AM
#74
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Upstate SC
Posts: 1,222
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 578 Post(s)
Liked 1,116 Times
in
525 Posts
Originally Posted by PeteHski
As someone else pointed out earlier, what failsafe do you have on a cable rim brake? If the cable fails there is no back-up (except for the other brake of course!). Now I would fully expect this new fangled electronic system to have a mechanical connection (which it very much looks like it does) and again you have 2 brakes anyway, so there is always some redundancy.
Same applies with hydraulic disc brakes. Your only failsafe is in having 2 independent brakes.
Same applies with hydraulic disc brakes. Your only failsafe is in having 2 independent brakes.
When an electronic component decides it's time to go, it just goes, and most of the time there is no warning.
On a 800 lb motorcycle travelling at highway speeds, electronically assisted brakes were required. I really don't think there is a need for electronic brake systems on a bicycle. It seems more like a "look what we can do!" rather than "look what needed to be done" type of thing.
06-03-21, 05:56 AM
#75
Shut up legs.
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,297
Bikes: Too many.
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 92 Post(s)
Liked 173 Times
in
86 Posts
I mean, it's a shame that the only "bikes" you can buy now are eBikes, right? I hate how they forced everyone into buying them and took away our good old human powered ones...
__________________
