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Brainstorm: Help me save 1000g!

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Brainstorm: Help me save 1000g!

Old 06-01-21, 01:09 PM
  #51  
aliasfox
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Originally Posted by CliffordK View Post
No carbon fiber crankset?
Nobody's suggested it. Though to be honest, were I to change cranks, I'd probably splurge on a power meter and not save any weight.
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Old 06-01-21, 01:14 PM
  #52  
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Originally Posted by CliffordK View Post
I wonder what the weight savings would be to convert to classic brakes and carbon fiber downtube friction shifters.

There is a fairly elusive Campagnolo Record Track/TT brake lever without brifter guts.
If I were a true weight weenie looking to sacrifice performance and comfort for weight, I probably wouldn't be starting with a tank (pig?) of a titanium frame... which is part of the reason I don't particularly want to go too exotic/$$$ with this exercise - just looking to optimize beyond wheels (which I knew were heavy and slow going in).
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Old 06-01-21, 07:07 PM
  #53  
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Originally Posted by mstateglfr View Post
The Uno7?

...

Is the Kalloy Uno 7 stem being a noodle a common view or do you just put out gobs of torque?
Dunno about whether there was a 7 in the name, but the 110 stem I had was pretty damn flexy, and I'm certainly not making with monster torque. Replaced it with a Zipp Service Course SL, night and day.
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Old 06-01-21, 08:53 PM
  #54  
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My Litespeed Ti gravel bike is 20 lb ready to ride with computer, lights, bottle cages etc.
42mm gravel tyres and Sram Force 1x set up. No weight weenie stuff on the bike, so I can't see why you shouldn't be able to get yours at least that light.
Just a reasonable whee/tyre setup and light saddle would do it.
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Old 06-01-21, 09:26 PM
  #55  
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My preferred bike is 22.3lbs out the door and ready to ride. Have a 16lb road bike but multiple rides have shown me that its barely faster so I'll stick with it but will lighten it some.

Carbon bars are a good savings over the gossamer and really good if you have the omega bars. Check out Merlin Cycles for 3t bars. Picked up 3 sets over the last 6 months for 150.00 each. One for mine and the wife's gravel bikes and one for the cross bike. She loves the ergonova and I find the ergoterra to be stiff enough. The third is waiting for the cross bike handlebar tape to wear out but it'll get me to 22lb once I install it, too cheap to just toss good lizardskin tape till I have to.

Cassette can make a big difference especially with an 11-34 cassette, for a nice bike I'd go XTR/Dura Ace depending on desired gear range. I've also got a real nice cassette waiting to replace my chorus (when it wears out) that will take another 150ish grams off, which I will match with a much nicer/lighter chain though I doubt that'll be more then a 20g difference and probably closer to 10g.

Wheels you don't have to go too exotic. I built my bike with White Industry hubs, butted spokes, alloy nipples and velocity aileron rims which came to just over 1600g, wife's was just under 1600 using lighter spokes to match her weight, and in both cases 32 spoke wheels. Switching to 28 spoke would help a touch more. Cost was under 1k for the set. Not as light as going carbon but sweet hubs, and a strong build. For extra weight savings, ditch the tubes all together if its a gravel bike, I still don't like tubeless on road tires.

So wheels, handlebar, and cassette should get you to 500g or a bit more. Saddle is something to look at as they can have a wide weight range. After that you might have to spend big for small gains. For me, after handlebars and cassette, a lighter set of pedals should get me to your weight range which will be fine, the ride I've learned, matters more. If its a real concern leave the saddlebag, computer and ancillaries at home but I like them.
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Old 06-01-21, 09:45 PM
  #56  
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Originally Posted by CliffordK View Post
I do find it a bit odd that most Titanium manufactures have chosen to completely forego butting.

It would seem like some forming of the tubes beyond basic shapes would be possible, although perhaps straight tubes have to do with titanium flexibility and stresses.

Anyway, even without drilling out the frame, one may be able to post-manufacture thin the walls or add some type of fullers.
Clifford, I suspect this is about stiffness. Butting is to make a thin tube thick enough to be strong at the lugs or welds. Ti is a lot more elastic so making the middle thicker for stiffness makes sense. If that is now thick enough for a good, strong weld at the end, why go to the (expensive) trouble of butting?

I could have paid more for butted tubes of a higher alloy, saved some grams and probably ended up with less stiff bikes that feel a little spiffier. Instead, I got two rock solid frames. After 36,000 miles, no regrets.
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Old 06-01-21, 11:00 PM
  #57  
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Originally Posted by 79pmooney View Post
Clifford, I suspect this is about stiffness. Butting is to make a thin tube thick enough to be strong at the lugs or welds. Ti is a lot more elastic so making the middle thicker for stiffness makes sense. If that is now thick enough for a good, strong weld at the end, why go to the (expensive) trouble of butting?

I could have paid more for butted tubes of a higher alloy, saved some grams and probably ended up with less stiff bikes that feel a little spiffier. Instead, I got two rock solid frames. After 36,000 miles, no regrets.
There is a lot of material and stress analysis that goes into "modern" carbon fiber and aluminum bikes. So, really big tubes at the headtube, tapering down to a relatively small tube at the seat post, wider than it is tall. Extra support and webbing around the bottom bracket.

I have troubles envisioning how all the forces would impact the tubes, from the fork interacting with the head tube which has the downtube/top tube. And similar at the rear triangle. Then we have a vertical force with weight on either the saddle or pedals. Bars that can have weight down or could be pulled up. And a side-to-side motion of pedaling, with support at various components of the bike. Torsion?

I'm trying to imagine levers and fulcrums. Mid-tube stresses should generally be less than at the ends, with the exception of certain torsional stresses which may be uniform along a tube.

My guess is that titanium tubes could be formed somewhat like Aluminum, if a company wanted, but so far most companies have chosen to build in pretty basic shapes (not all round, but with the exception of chain stays, generally uniform end to end.
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Old 06-02-21, 05:47 AM
  #58  
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Originally Posted by CliffordK View Post

My guess is that titanium tubes could be formed somewhat like Aluminum, if a company wanted, but so far most companies have chosen to build in pretty basic shapes (not all round, but with the exception of chain stays, generally uniform end to end.
Have you seen some of the T-Lab bikes?
https://t-lab-bikes.com/ti-morph-technology
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Old 06-02-21, 05:55 AM
  #59  
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Originally Posted by Sy Reene View Post
Have you seen some of the T-Lab bikes?
https://t-lab-bikes.com/ti-morph-technology
Not real radical, but a step forward in design and construction.
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Old 06-02-21, 02:48 PM
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Originally Posted by aliasfox View Post
Though to be honest, were I to change cranks, I'd probably splurge on a power meter and not save any weight.
Well, if you really want to splurge on power cranks and save weight, there's the THM Clavicula SE Powermeter crankset.

320 grams, for the crankset with the power meter. A savings of 448 grams over the Dura-Ace SRM crankset.

1975 euros.


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Old 06-02-21, 03:57 PM
  #61  
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Maybe I missed it, but you can probably shave some grams on rotors if you're willing to run something like this:

https://www.amazon.com/Ashima-140MM-.../dp/B07WZPMFDC

65g/ea which is likely a lot less than whatever is on your bike now. They chew through pads but otherwise seem to work based on reviews I've read.
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Old 06-02-21, 06:15 PM
  #62  
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Originally Posted by 79pmooney View Post
Clifford, I suspect this is about stiffness. Butting is to make a thin tube thick enough to be strong at the lugs or welds. Ti is a lot more elastic so making the middle thicker for stiffness makes sense. If that is now thick enough for a good, strong weld at the end, why go to the (expensive) trouble of butting?
It's rare for titanium to be butted because it's a bastard to work with, not because it's a bad idea.
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Old 06-03-21, 09:17 AM
  #63  
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Originally Posted by CliffordK View Post
Or go either tubeless or tubular.
Tubular is heavier. Plus you have to add glue.

Tubeless tires are heavier depending on make. Plus you have to add sealant.
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Old 06-03-21, 09:19 AM
  #64  
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Originally Posted by aliasfox View Post
I guess I should check out latex tubes - you're the second person to suggest them. My only qualms are that they lose air faster than butyl - though I guess it's really a non-issue as I usually check my pressures before every ride.
The true benefit of latex is less rolling resistance.

The weight loss is a secondary (though fairly insignificant) benefit.
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Old 06-04-21, 11:42 AM
  #65  
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Originally Posted by Russ Roth View Post
My preferred bike is 22.3lbs out the door and ready to ride. Have a 16lb road bike but multiple rides have shown me that its barely faster so I'll stick with it but will lighten it some.

Carbon bars are a good savings over the gossamer and really good if you have the omega bars. Check out Merlin Cycles for 3t bars. Picked up 3 sets over the last 6 months for 150.00 each. One for mine and the wife's gravel bikes and one for the cross bike. She loves the ergonova and I find the ergoterra to be stiff enough. The third is waiting for the cross bike handlebar tape to wear out but it'll get me to 22lb once I install it, too cheap to just toss good lizardskin tape till I have to.

Cassette can make a big difference especially with an 11-34 cassette, for a nice bike I'd go XTR/Dura Ace depending on desired gear range. I've also got a real nice cassette waiting to replace my chorus (when it wears out) that will take another 150ish grams off, which I will match with a much nicer/lighter chain though I doubt that'll be more then a 20g difference and probably closer to 10g.

Wheels you don't have to go too exotic. I built my bike with White Industry hubs, butted spokes, alloy nipples and velocity aileron rims which came to just over 1600g, wife's was just under 1600 using lighter spokes to match her weight, and in both cases 32 spoke wheels. Switching to 28 spoke would help a touch more. Cost was under 1k for the set. Not as light as going carbon but sweet hubs, and a strong build. For extra weight savings, ditch the tubes all together if its a gravel bike, I still don't like tubeless on road tires.

So wheels, handlebar, and cassette should get you to 500g or a bit more. Saddle is something to look at as they can have a wide weight range. After that you might have to spend big for small gains. For me, after handlebars and cassette, a lighter set of pedals should get me to your weight range which will be fine, the ride I've learned, matters more. If its a real concern leave the saddlebag, computer and ancillaries at home but I like them.
I've wanted a cassette with different ratios. It's weird - my older bike has an Ultegra triple, lowest gear is 32-27; the Lynskey, with its double, has a 34-34 low end. I rarely granny-geared it on the old bike (lowest I commonly used was 42-25, IIRC - with the 32t chainring only getting used on long 10% grades), and haven't used the 34 tooth on this bike pretty much ever - even the 30 tooth is rarely used. I'd love a cassette that has one-tooth jumps between 14-20, with a 12 on the bottom and 30 on the top, but nobody seems to make anything close. Shimano's 11-30 doesn't really give me any more gears in my normal range, so I would only be swapping out to save the 60g or so, which is why I've hemmed and hawed about it.

Carbon bars scare me, to be honest - I know they shouldn't, but the thought of that much leverage on a relatively small clamping area just puts a question mark in my head. I can definitely look at a lighter alloy option when it comes time to re-tape my bars - though looking at new bar/stem combos is more about the fact that I'm not a huge fan of the FSA graphics (preferred the Deda graphics on the old bike, I guess).

Light Bicycle Wheel is definitely in the running when I do pull the trigger, and I expect about 500g from there. The Velocity Team 30 are pigs, and I can feel the extra ~200-250g from the Ksyrium Equipes that the Bianchi had - same total bicycle weight, the Bianchi feels livelier from a stop. The Lynskey pulls better once you're up to speed, which is likely due to aerodynamics and higher rotating weight. Of course, the Ksyrium Equipes aren't aero, and the Bianchi doesn't stop nearly as well.
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Old 06-04-21, 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by CliffordK View Post
I'm seeing the cheaper CF cages rated at about 23g.
I bought a pair of cheap carbon bottle cages from Amazon. One was 12g, the other 14g, on my kitchen scale.
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Old 06-04-21, 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by aliasfox View Post

Carbon bars scare me, to be honest - I know they shouldn't, but the thought of that much leverage on a relatively small clamping area just puts a question mark in my head.
Nothing to be scared of really. If you buy quality and install them properly they are probably less likely to fail than lightweight alloy bars. They will certainly have a higher strength/weight ratio.
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Old 06-04-21, 12:50 PM
  #68  
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Originally Posted by PeteHski View Post
Nothing to be scared of really. If you buy quality and install them properly they are probably less likely to fail than lightweight alloy bars. They will certainly have a higher strength/weight ratio.
Oh, part of my brain understands that. And that the pro peloton can yank on a bar for harder and for longer than I can. And all of me understands that the tensile strength of carbon is better. The rest of me is just worried about torquing it to 6nm instead of 5nm and having it crack at the joint when I'm going up a climb, only to completely fail going down the backside... in fact, I have this thought about my carbon steerer whenever I adjust the stem (been lowering my position by 5mm every few months).

Some of these things are fairly irrational fears, and I know that. But on balance, I'd personally rather go with a lightweight alloy bar than a carbon bar. It's reasons like this that I can never be a true weight weenie lol.
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Old 06-04-21, 01:42 PM
  #69  
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Originally Posted by rubiksoval View Post
Tubular is heavier. Plus you have to add glue.

Tubeless tires are heavier depending on make. Plus you have to add sealant.
Ok, here are some numbers:

Dura Ace C40
• Rim brake clincher: front 674g, rear 834g
• Rim brake tubular: front 605g, rear 750g

So, the pair of tubular saves 69g front, 84g rear for a total of 153g.

Vittoria Corsa
Tubular 25-28: 290g
Tubeless 25mm: 290g
Foldable Clincher, 25mm: 255g

Latex Tubes are all over the place from about 22g to over 100g Just for fun, let's try 22g.

I believe the Dura Ace rim above is tapeless, but in many cases one would have to add in rim tape.

Glue? I saw one estimate of 10g (per wheel). If one goes with about 1g/cc, then that would be 10cc of glue which may be appropriate... but that is still a wet measurement, not a dry measurement which would be less. Gluing both tire & rim?

Ok, so above, we have:
Tubular: 605g + 750g (wheels) + 2x 290g tires + 2x10g glue = 1955g
Tubeless: 674g + 834g (wheels) + 2x 290g tires + 2x30g sealant = 2148g
Tubes (tubolito): 674g + 834g (wheels) +2x 255g tires + 2x22g tubes = 2062g

Overall, with this quick comparison, the tubular comes in slighly lighter.
The tubeless/tube config would be very close depending on the chosen tubes. Road vs Track? Probably 50g to 75g for tubes would have been more representative, quickly closing the gap.
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Old 06-04-21, 01:51 PM
  #70  
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Originally Posted by terrymorse View Post
Well, if you really want to splurge on power cranks and save weight, there's the THM Clavicula SE Powermeter crankset.

320 grams, for the crankset with the power meter. A savings of 448 grams over the Dura-Ace SRM crankset.

1975 euros.

That's without rings. Add another ~150 + grams on top of that.
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Old 06-04-21, 01:59 PM
  #71  
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Originally Posted by CliffordK View Post
Ok, here are some numbers:


Overall, with this quick comparison, the tubular comes in slighly lighter.
The tubeless/tube config would be very close depending on the chosen tubes. Road vs Track? Probably 50g to 75g for tubes would have been more representative, quickly closing the gap.
Yep. I know the numbers.

So again, the tubular tires are heavier, and then you add glue on top of that. If you're going with a whole system weight, you definitely don't want Shimano, as it's ridiculously easy to go sub 1000 grams for a tubular wheelset if that's the desired effect. In any case, almost definitely outside of the realm of the OPs expertise. I was just going with tires, only, but sure, can't have those without the appropriate wheels.

And yes, the tubeless setup can be heavier, and likely is when you include sealant.

Last edited by rubiksoval; 06-04-21 at 02:05 PM.
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Old 06-04-21, 02:46 PM
  #72  
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Originally Posted by rubiksoval View Post
Yep. I know the numbers.

So again, the tubular tires are heavier, and then you add glue on top of that. If you're going with a whole system weight, you definitely don't want Shimano, as it's ridiculously easy to go sub 1000 grams for a tubular wheelset if that's the desired effect. In any case, almost definitely outside of the realm of the OPs expertise. I was just going with tires, only, but sure, can't have those without the appropriate wheels.

And yes, the tubeless setup can be heavier, and likely is when you include sealant.
You can choose whatever wheels/rims you wish. Tubular rims have a simple ring shape. Double walled clincher rims are similar, plus the added sides for the bead which much be strong enough to take the pressure in the tire plus an extra safety margin.

Single walled rims may have some weight benefit, but have largely fallen out of favor.

Thus, across all manufacturers you'll see a greater weight savings for tubular over clinchers wheels. And, there used to be discussions about "rotating weight" amplifying the differences even more.
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Old 06-04-21, 08:42 PM
  #73  
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Originally Posted by rubiksoval View Post
Yep. I know the numbers.

So again, the tubular tires are heavier, and then you add glue on top of that. If you're going with a whole system weight, you definitely don't want Shimano, as it's ridiculously easy to go sub 1000 grams for a tubular wheelset if that's the desired effect. In any case, almost definitely outside of the realm of the OPs expertise. I was just going with tires, only, but sure, can't have those without the appropriate wheels.

And yes, the tubeless setup can be heavier, and likely is when you include sealant.
Actually in the example above I don't see how the tubulars are heavier especially since you're adding the weight of the glue which means you see them as heavier to have installed and running. Yet the tubular is the same weight as the tubeless and the latex sealant will be heavier then the glue, so tubular is lighter. Tubular is heavier then a standard tire but then that isn't mounted and ready to go, toss in those tubes and suddenly the tubular is just as light to lighter than the tube tire even with the glue. And better riding.
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