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Why do high(er)-end bicycles come with saddles?

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Why do high(er)-end bicycles come with saddles?

Old 06-05-21, 07:39 PM
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Originally Posted by aliasfox View Post
I highly doubt any saddle with non-exotic materials takes a whole lot of money to make. Sure, it may sell on the retail market for $100, but provided it's fiberglass and some sort of steel rails, it probably doesn't cost the manufacturer more than $5 to source. Structurally, they just aren't going to be that different than the saddles that Wal-Mart sells for $30. Now, if the saddle has a carbon shell, or titanium rails, or some other lightweight magic in it...
You can get full carbon saddles from China for $20. $20.
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Old 06-05-21, 09:48 PM
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In the US, the CPSC requires the cheapie platform pedals, reflectors and a saddle if the bike is sold whole. Google CPSC bicycle requirements. Bikes are sold assuming they are in rideable condition and they specify tests to that effect. The most basic test is a 150lb rider must be able to ride the bike 5 miles off the showroom floor after inflating the tires.
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Old 06-06-21, 06:08 AM
  #78  
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Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff View Post
In the US, the CPSC requires the cheapie platform pedals, reflectors and a saddle if the bike is sold whole. Google CPSC bicycle requirements. Bikes are sold assuming they are in rideable condition and they specify tests to that effect. The most basic test is a 150lb rider must be able to ride the bike 5 miles off the showroom floor after inflating the tires.
Is there any requirement though to sell a bike "whole" though? Obviously framesets are a thing. Does anything stop a manufacturer from selling any configuration between a frameset and the whole bike?

I do believe there are of course agreements between bike makers and groupset makers (eg. Shimano) that ensures groupsets sold to the bike makers, end up on bikes and not sold as groupsets. This would seem to make it necessary to at least have stem/bars and wheels.

I've always wanted to see the large manufacturers to get creative on their bike configs. Sell framesets but options to choose groupset, cockpit and/or wheelset packages. Have the LBS do the assembly from the packages delivered from the distributor. To the original point, why should it be mandatory to get a $250 saddle you may not want. Other options... why can't Di2 be an option on the base alloy frameset, or if I get Di2 on a carbon model, the bike will inevitably have a few other things 'upgraded' that I don't need. If you want some deeper aero carbon wheels, you can't get them on a 105 equipped model? If you want flat aero carbon handlebars, the first complete bike offering those is over $7k? etc
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Old 06-06-21, 07:48 AM
  #79  
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Originally Posted by Sy Reene View Post
Is there any requirement though to sell a bike "whole" though? Obviously framesets are a thing. Does anything stop a manufacturer from selling any configuration between a frameset and the whole bike?

I do believe there are of course agreements between bike makers and groupset makers (eg. Shimano) that ensures groupsets sold to the bike makers, end up on bikes and not sold as groupsets. This would seem to make it necessary to at least have stem/bars and wheels.

I've always wanted to see the large manufacturers to get creative on their bike configs. Sell framesets but options to choose groupset, cockpit and/or wheelset packages. Have the LBS do the assembly from the packages delivered from the distributor. To the original point, why should it be mandatory to get a $250 saddle you may not want. Other options... why can't Di2 be an option on the base alloy frameset, or if I get Di2 on a carbon model, the bike will inevitably have a few other things 'upgraded' that I don't need. If you want some deeper aero carbon wheels, you can't get them on a 105 equipped model? If you want flat aero carbon handlebars, the first complete bike offering those is over $7k? etc
That's a level of configuration that no shop will want to deal with. My last experience working in bike shops was back in high school/college, but I can't imagine it's that different these days: A bike shows up at the shop nearly complete, and any shop hand can throw the wheels/bars/post on, tune the brakes/derailleurs, and check for major issues (wheel trueness, crank/headset assembly), and get the bike from box to floor in about an hour - often less for an experienced mechanic.

Getting to the level of detail of having a shop build up every half-nice frameset with any component you'd like would turn this from a 30-60 min process to a whole day affair, not to mention the supply chain/logistical nightmare that would bring.

"No, I don't want an Allez with 105, I want the base Allez frame with DuraAce Di2, the saddle off of a Stumpjumper, the flexy post off of a Roubaix, an 11-42 XT cassette, and Turbo Cottons on the Rovals off of a Venge."

"Sorry sir, we can't even run a DuraAce Di2 with an XT 11-42 cassette"

And that'll be the difficulty at that point. That's probably taking it to the extreme, but the industry has to have guardrails in place to keep things moving smoothly. There are far fewer customers who will grumble about the saddle being wrong or the gear ratios being off than customers who will get frustrated because they have to pick something aside from standover height, reach, price, and color. And for the few of us that are really picky, going the frameset route is always an option.
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Old 06-06-21, 07:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff View Post
In the US, the CPSC requires the cheapie platform pedals, reflectors and a saddle if the bike is sold whole. Google CPSC bicycle requirements. Bikes are sold assuming they are in rideable condition and they specify tests to that effect. The most basic test is a 150lb rider must be able to ride the bike 5 miles off the showroom floor after inflating the tires.
And those CPSC requirements cost a bike company <$10 - and actually make it easier for a dealer to sell, so they're probably not complaining too much.
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Old 06-06-21, 08:03 AM
  #81  
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Originally Posted by aliasfox View Post
That's a level of configuration that no shop will want to deal with. My last experience working in bike shops was back in high school/college, but I can't imagine it's that different these days: A bike shows up at the shop nearly complete, and any shop hand can throw the wheels/bars/post on, tune the brakes/derailleurs, and check for major issues (wheel trueness, crank/headset assembly), and get the bike from box to floor in about an hour - often less for an experienced mechanic.

Getting to the level of detail of having a shop build up every half-nice frameset with any component you'd like would turn this from a 30-60 min process to a whole day affair, not to mention the supply chain/logistical nightmare that would bring.

"No, I don't want an Allez with 105, I want the base Allez frame with DuraAce Di2, the saddle off of a Stumpjumper, the flexy post off of a Roubaix, an 11-42 XT cassette, and Turbo Cottons on the Rovals off of a Venge."

"Sorry sir, we can't even run a DuraAce Di2 with an XT 11-42 cassette"

And that'll be the difficulty at that point. That's probably taking it to the extreme, but the industry has to have guardrails in place to keep things moving smoothly. There are far fewer customers who will grumble about the saddle being wrong or the gear ratios being off than customers who will get frustrated because they have to pick something aside from standover height, reach, price, and color. And for the few of us that are really picky, going the frameset route is always an option.
No, the bike maker would offer pre-determined compatible offerings. Eg. Level 1, 2, or 3 of Wheelset pkg, Groupset, or Cockpit. Take a company like Trek where, aside from the groupset, everything is Bontrager anyway, so why have the stuff put on bikes in the factory when it could be at the distributor. LBS would get paid for this I suppose (say $200 for final assembly). And, from supply chain standpoint, might prevent some of those situations we've heard about -- eg. we're out of SLX model because we've heard there's a shortage of the tire it's supposed to come with.

If a smaller outfit like Ribble can do it, it seems remarkable that the Trek/Spesh/Giant's can't figure something out.
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Old 06-06-21, 09:24 AM
  #82  
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Originally Posted by Sy Reene View Post
If a smaller outfit like Ribble can do it, it seems remarkable that the Trek/Spesh/Giant's can't figure something out.
A glaringly obvious available market niche. Solution: swoop in and start your own company, with a trendily generic-sounding name. Since "Specialized" is already taken, how about "Entitled"?
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Old 06-06-21, 09:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Trakhak View Post
A glaringly obvious available market niche. Solution: swoop in and start your own company, with a trendily generic-sounding name. Since "Specialized" is already taken, how about "Entitled"?
Correct, it is a glaringly obvious niche.
I like what AdrenalineBike and Wrench Science do, though because they're just building stuff, I'm not sure whether they get OEM pricing on the components.

I also like T-Labs simple but limited approach. Pick a bike frame model and then choose from one of 3-4 groupsets. No matter which group you choose, the rest of the bike componentry is the same but is basically 'free' since the frame+group market price is about the same as the complete.
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Old 06-06-21, 01:04 PM
  #84  
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Originally Posted by Sy Reene View Post
If a smaller outfit like Ribble can do it, it seems remarkable that the Trek/Spesh/Giant's can't figure something out.
So remarkable that it leads one to wonder if perhaps they have figured out how to do it and decided that it's not in their best interest.
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Old 06-06-21, 01:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff View Post
In the US, the CPSC requires the cheapie platform pedals, reflectors and a saddle if the bike is sold whole. Google CPSC bicycle requirements. Bikes are sold assuming they are in rideable condition and they specify tests to that effect. The most basic test is a 150lb rider must be able to ride the bike 5 miles off the showroom floor after inflating the tires.
This of course makes perfect sense when selling a bike to a rank novice. But it's totally inappropriate for high-end bikes and their audience, and just results in a waste of money in the form of brand new platform pedals, saddles, cassettes, tires, etc thrown in the trash. If it's a novice buying a high-end bike, then the store can simply add on whatever cheap parts is needed to meet requirements and looks like it belongs. That buyer won't be able to tell the difference and won't enter the store with strong pre set preferences anyway, it just needs to be simple basic stuff that's fine for some statistical average of beginner cyclists and their needs.
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Old 06-06-21, 03:16 PM
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I know some of remember the era when you bought a frame and hung on it everything you wanted. I found that it much cheaper to buy a complete bike and then just replace the parts you need to. The big companies buy in such high volume that that ‘expensive’ saddle for you, cost them nothing.
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Old 06-06-21, 03:43 PM
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Originally Posted by colnago62 View Post
I know some of remember the era when you bought a frame and hung on it everything you wanted. I found that it much cheaper to buy a complete bike and then just replace the parts you need to. The big companies buy in such high volume that that ‘expensive’ saddle for you, cost them nothing.
I think that used to be how it was. If you bought a better specced bike, you got a 'better deal'. I think now you end up paying more for an upper tier model than if you just bought a lower one and did the same part swap outs.

One example, Domane SL7 goes for $2400 more than an SL6. You get some Di2 parts for electronic and a wheelset that has a $800 more expensive wheelset. That's a worse value proposition for the consumer.
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Old 06-06-21, 07:33 PM
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I went Project One on my Trek. There's a reasonable amount of customization and my bike started as an SLR 7 and ended up as an SLR 9, just with Ultegra instead of Di2. I even put 28mm tires on it, which means aside from the entry-level rim brake AL2 I have one of the only Domanes that came with 28mm tires.
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Old 06-07-21, 02:07 PM
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It all depends on what you can afford, and on how much time you spend in the saddle. For my part, I am lucky enough to have spare cash and the first thing I do with a new bike is to buy a Brooks B17 narrow. It makes all the difference in the world after an hour in the saddle.
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Old 06-07-21, 02:22 PM
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I like the one that came on my Trek Domane and still am using it after 39,000 km.
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Old 06-07-21, 03:22 PM
  #91  
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so you can ride them?
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Old 06-07-21, 03:47 PM
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Originally Posted by road292 View Post
Wisely or not, no high(er)-end bicycle these days comes with pedals (I'm not counting the cheapie flat pedals on there for test rides and such).

Yet these same bicycles come with decent saddles, presumably at a non-trivial cost adder. Why? Does anyone actually use the saddle that comes with a new bike? I can't remember the last time I did. I either take the saddle from a bike I'm replacing and put it on the new bike, or I order the same model saddle I'm presently using and install that one on the new bike so that I know it will fit me properly.
Yes! I road the original saddle on my LeMond Zurich until I didn't like it anymore. Then I bought a different saddle which worked out really well and I like it a lot. I bought it at Performance Bike and when their brick and mortar stores were closing I bought two more at about a third of the original cost. I intended to install them on the new bike I would be buying. However, after riding the stock saddle on the new Specialized Tarmac I had just bought, I liked it and just kept riding with it. Two years later and I'm still riding the original saddle with no problems. I have still kept the two saddles I bought from PB because, well, you know......what if I buy a new bike I might need a new saddle!
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Old 06-07-21, 03:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Random11 View Post
Meanwhile, I've swapped the 11-34 cassette that came with the bike for an 11-28.
That's funny, I went the other way. I rode the stock 11-30 for about two years and then switched to an 11-32. It was a good move although the jump from the 28 cog to the 32 cog is a bit of a leap.
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Old 06-07-21, 10:07 PM
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As an employee of a very busy, high volume shop, I can't begin to tell you how impractical and unfeasible this would be. Most people start with mostly stock and change and upgrade along the way.

Having to choose all components a la carte at the start would be dizzying and exhausting, not to mention extremely time consuming with current supply chain lag time and delays, and you'd be sitting with no bike in the meantime. While you could be out riding the bike, getting to know it and deciding what can stay and is just fine and what needs to go to make room for something better.
Originally Posted by Kimmo View Post
There should a display version of the bike, fully built. The rest should be ready to swap bars, stem, saddle, pedals, wheels or cassette. It always seemed pretty dumb to me when I was taping up the bars on a bike, when the owner hadn't even come along yet.

The stock tape could just be sold cheap, with the bike's new owner getting that much discount on the tape of their preference. Same with bars or whatever.
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Old 06-07-21, 10:51 PM
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Originally Posted by DocJames View Post
As an employee of a very busy, high volume shop
Obviously this approach wouldn't fly for a super busy shop, but you'd only do it for bikes costing a bomb, so I figure it'd make some sense here and there. I reckon it's the sort of thing that'd earn you some good word of mouth.
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Old 06-07-21, 11:01 PM
  #96  
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In the last few weeks we've sold one bike costing around $10,000 and another for around $8900. If their buyers weren't trying to do a full custom build out. Not sure how to tell you, but the folk doing that represent a teeny fraction of bike buyers. And as mentioned by someone else, you can always buy a frame set to go this route.

Originally Posted by Kimmo View Post
Obviously this approach wouldn't fly for a super busy shop, but you'd only do it for bikes costing a bomb, so I figure it'd make some sense here and there. I reckon it's the sort of thing that'd earn you some good word of mouth.
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Old 06-08-21, 02:08 AM
  #97  
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Originally Posted by Sy Reene View Post
Correct, it is a glaringly obvious niche.
I like what AdrenalineBike and Wrench Science do, though because they're just building stuff, I'm not sure whether they get OEM pricing on the components.

I also like T-Labs simple but limited approach. Pick a bike frame model and then choose from one of 3-4 groupsets. No matter which group you choose, the rest of the bike componentry is the same but is basically 'free' since the frame+group market price is about the same as the complete.
Adrenaline Bikes offered a Bianchi Infinito CV Ultegra build for the same price as a Bianchi Infinito CV Ultegra, so maybe it gets OEM pricing? (I was looking at one but with a shorter stem, a different Ultegra cassette, and a more normal seat post than the default setup.)
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Old 06-08-21, 04:19 AM
  #98  
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Originally Posted by DocJames View Post
As an employee of a very busy, high volume shop, I can't begin to tell you how impractical and unfeasible this would be. Most people start with mostly stock and change and upgrade along the way.

Having to choose all components a la carte at the start would be dizzying and exhausting, not to mention extremely time consuming with current supply chain lag time and delays, and you'd be sitting with no bike in the meantime. While you could be out riding the bike, getting to know it and deciding what can stay and is just fine and what needs to go to make room for something better.
The idea is for the manufacturer to do the semi-custom build, not the retailer. That's why the online direct sales model is really taking off. Many of those manufacturers now offer a degree of custom build at little or no extra cost. I'm thinking of the likes of Orbea and Rose. You get a lot more component choice than from a standard fixed range of bikes. It's a bit like buying a car with an on-line configurator. Pretty simple actually.
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