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Wahoo Bolt or Garmin 530

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Wahoo Bolt or Garmin 530

Old 07-02-21, 12:38 PM
  #51  
Seattle Forrest
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Originally Posted by RChung View Post
Hmmm. I don't get these phone connection problems with my 530. In general, I've heard that *if* you have the choice between an ANT+ device/connection and a BT device/connection, Garmins seem to work better with ANT+. I have a power meter and HR belt that use ANT+, so my only BT connection is my phone (which I keep in my pocket in the middle of my back). Maybe that's why I've been lucky. But I'm not about to run out and buy a BT power meter and BT HR belt and BT speed/cadence sensor just so I can check.
​​​​​​I have Garmin's newest chest strap, because it has sensors they use to infer ski power. It supports ANT+ and BT, I think it's the second chest strap they've made that does that. My Garmin prefers to connect to it over BT, it has both options but always chooses that. Never had a problem with it, except that it doesn't work as expected when swimming. And it's summer!
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Old 07-02-21, 12:48 PM
  #52  
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Originally Posted by surak View Post
Unless you think Wahoo users are less likely to complain about their issues (and some reason only Elemnt users, not the Kickr and Tickr users who are verrrry well-represented in the support group), this doesn't just boil down just Garmin having a larger user population.
Actually, that's exactly what my day job entails: everyone else seems to look at the numerator, I have to look at the denominators. Why do "normal-sized" people complain more than either dwarves or giants? Because there are more normal-sized people. I don't know what the population of Garmin vs. Wahoo users is, nor what the average "exposure" time is, nor what their other devices are, nor how each population uses their devices -- and I can't see where on the Garmin or Wahoo discussion forums those characteristics are tabulated -- so I can't calculate the rates of complaints. That'd be like using star ratings on Yelp to figure out where to get a haircut.

As an aside, one of my friends works on health care quality. He says he uses patient satisfaction and patient complaints only as an indicator of where to look, but he can't use them to assess the actual quality of care that patients receive, or that hospitals, physicians, or health systems deliver -- even when he knows the denominators. Patient complaints and satisfaction depends on what they expected from their care. I think about this when I read about complaints about Android vs. iOS, or Linux vs. MacOS, or (right now, today) charcoal grills vs. gas grills vs. pellet grills. Complaints and satisfaction depends on what they expected, even if they're all cooking hamburgers and chicken.

[Edited to add:] That all said, Gatorskins must die.

Last edited by RChung; 07-02-21 at 12:56 PM.
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Old 07-02-21, 12:48 PM
  #53  
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Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
My wife doesn't appreciate my "humor" when I refer to Live Track as Corpse Tracking and when I tell her that the Cycliq video camera is only there so that she knows against whom to press charges.
​​​​​​At work sometimes I'll tell them I wrote up some documentation in case I get hit by a truck on my lunch ride. They keep correcting me "in case you win the lottery."
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Old 07-02-21, 01:09 PM
  #54  
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Originally Posted by surak View Post
Your unspoken null hypothesis seems to be that the rate of Bluetooth errors should be the same....
Do you know why I've left that unsaid? Because that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that online chatter isn't a good way to conclude anything one way or the other. The number of users and the methods of addressing user concerns can lead to disparate results. Market position may lead to adoption by users of differing experience and/or technical savvy. Not all comments are the same. Not all comments are from unique individuals. Etc, etc.
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Old 07-02-21, 01:09 PM
  #55  
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Originally Posted by RChung View Post
Actually, that's exactly what my day job entails: everyone else seems to look at the numerator, I have to look at the denominators. Why do "normal-sized" people complain more than either dwarves or giants? Because there are more normal-sized people. I don't know what the population of Garmin vs. Wahoo users is, nor what the average "exposure" time is, nor what their other devices are, nor how each population uses their devices -- and I can't see where on the Garmin or Wahoo discussion forums those characteristics are tabulated -- so I can't calculate the rates of complaints. That'd be like using star ratings on Yelp to figure out where to get a haircut.

As an aside, one of my friends works on health care quality. He says he uses patient satisfaction and patient complaints only as an indicator of where to look, but he can't use them to assess the actual quality of care that patients receive, or that hospitals, physicians, or health systems deliver -- even when he knows the denominators. Patient complaints and satisfaction depends on what they expected from their care. I think about this when I read about complaints about Android vs. iOS, or Linux vs. MacOS, or (right now, today) charcoal grills vs. gas grills vs. pellet grills. Complaints and satisfaction depends on what they expected, even if they're all cooking hamburgers and chicken.
Nothing you're saying is controversial, but what you're implying is that because you can't put a number on the denominator, that an effect isn't possible to even suggest, or that even a denominator is insufficient. I've already pointed out that there are in fact venues where these nearly equivalent devices are commented on by users with highly overlapping use-cases, namely DC Rainmaker. Yes you can keep whatabout X, Y, and Z when it comes to throwing outconfounding factors, but in products that have essentially the same core functions at the same price points, the possibility that somehow Elemnt users expect Bluetooth issues while Edge users don't, or won't complain about it, or are dwarfed in volume, are all real stretches. This isn't about making a comparison between McDonald's and Chez Panisse, or even Android and iPhone.
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Old 07-02-21, 01:11 PM
  #56  
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Originally Posted by RChung View Post
That all said, Gatorskins must die.
I mean, just make this your sig line, already.
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Old 07-02-21, 01:15 PM
  #57  
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Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest View Post
​​​​​​At work sometimes I'll tell them I wrote up some documentation in case I get hit by a truck on my lunch ride. They keep correcting me "in case you win the lottery."
Do you tell them that blowing through money isn't nearly as fun when you're dead?
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Old 07-02-21, 01:15 PM
  #58  
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Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
Do you know why I've left that unsaid? Because that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that online chatter isn't a good way to conclude anything one way or the other. The number of users and the methods of addressing user concerns can lead to disparate results. Market position may lead to adoption by users of differing experience and/or technical savvy. Not all comments are the same. Not all comments are from unique individuals. Etc, etc.
That's even dumber then, because what you really mean in that case is that being an Edge or Elemnt owner (what about both???) would cause a strong bias in how one uses the Internet. Just listen to yourself. "Elemnt users are from Mars, Edge owners are from Venus. Did you ever notice how an Elemnt owner drives like this, while an Edge owner drives like this? Elemnt users are all about Doge while Edge users are into Ethereum." Really great point, totally believable.
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Old 07-02-21, 01:27 PM
  #59  
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I've noticed a lot of people buy a Wahoo because they really hate Garmin. I guess there are a few different things you could make of that. Almost seems like some people got really angry at their experience with Garmin and that anger is part of their satisfaction with other options.

I had an 800 for 10 years. It worked well, at least within its ancient capabilities. That was before they put BT in bike computers. That's the last Edge I had. Garmin's watches are excellent.

I've heard people complain about Wahoo and other computers too, less often. I think the moral of this story is you only buy these things at a place with a good return policy.
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Old 07-02-21, 01:28 PM
  #60  
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Originally Posted by surak View Post
That's even dumber then, because what you really mean in that case is that being an Edge or Elemnt owner (what about both???) would cause a strong bias in how one uses the Internet. Just listen to yourself. "Elemnt users are from Mars, Edge owners are from Venus. Did you ever notice how an Elemnt owner drives like this, while an Edge owner drives like this? Elemnt users are all about Doge while Edge users are into Ethereum." Really great point, totally believable.
You don't believe that market position and perception has a different influence on the purchase decisions of prospective buyers of differing demographics? Cool.

You don't think that having different customer service models might lead to perceived differences in complaint volume? Awesome.

I guess you're too smart for me and we're done, then.
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Old 07-02-21, 03:40 PM
  #61  
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Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
You don't believe that market position and perception has a different influence on the purchase decisions of prospective buyers of differing demographics? Cool.

You don't think that having different customer service models might lead to perceived differences in complaint volume? Awesome.

I guess you're too smart for me and we're done, then.
How would those speculative differences cause almost no complaints about a fundamental requirement for the Elemnt to function -- Bluetooth, which you almost need along with a phone to use with it by design), while other more niche issues relating to elevation tracking, LiveTrack, ride syncing, screen failures, and even anguish over specific powermeters (Assiomas) are readily available to find?

Whatever real or imagined differences between Elemnt owners and Edge owners exist I'm sure, but you have a tail wagging the dog take on why Bluetooth just isn't a widespread problem with Elemnts discussed all over the Internet. Your position is equivalent to claiming that there's no way disc brakes are better at braking in the wet because it's all marketing and people mad at their rim brakes looking to justify their switch.
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Old 07-02-21, 04:38 PM
  #62  
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I have a hand me down Edge 500 and I'll upgrade at the end of the season. Does the Garmin 530 show battery life? I have a 500 Edge, but battery life is only shown, for a few seconds, at start up when it acquires the satellite. The battery life meter % is so tiny, I have a hard time reading it. By the time I dig up a pair of reading glasses, its gone. Once setup, the 500 Edge provides everything I need. So, I'm leaning towards a 530.
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Old 07-02-21, 05:04 PM
  #63  
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Originally Posted by Warbird21 View Post
I have a hand me down Edge 500 and I'll upgrade at the end of the season. Does the Garmin 530 show battery life? I have a 500 Edge, but battery life is only shown, for a few seconds, at start up when it acquires the satellite. The battery life meter % is so tiny, I have a hard time reading it. By the time I dig up a pair of reading glasses, its gone. Once setup, the 500 Edge provides everything I need. So, I'm leaning towards a 530.
On the 1030 at least, you can add battery life to a data field on a data page. Or just swipe down to the main settings menu, its shown there (in tiny, tiny font).
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Old 07-02-21, 05:55 PM
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Originally Posted by surak View Post
How would those speculative differences cause almost no complaints about a fundamental requirement for the Elemnt to function -- Bluetooth, which you almost need along with a phone to use with it by design), while other more niche issues relating to elevation tracking, LiveTrack, ride syncing, screen failures, and even anguish over specific powermeters (Assiomas) are readily available to find?

Whatever real or imagined differences between Elemnt owners and Edge owners exist I'm sure, but you have a tail wagging the dog take on why Bluetooth just isn't a widespread problem with Elemnts discussed all over the Internet. Your position is equivalent to claiming that there's no way disc brakes are better at braking in the wet because it's all marketing and people mad at their rim brakes looking to justify their switch.
Why are you still coming at me? I told you that I concede - I'm simply not smart enough to infer satisfaction rates with nothing but judicious eyeballing of internets commentary. I bow down to your superior powers of statistical assumption.
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Old 07-02-21, 06:01 PM
  #65  
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Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
Why are you still coming at me? I told you that I concede - I'm simply not smart enough to infer satisfaction rates with nothing but judicious eyeballing of internets commentary. I bow down to your superior powers of statistical assumption.
My bad, I mistook your sincere exit from the debate with your tail tucked behind your legs for sarcastic snipes aimed at getting in the last word when you failed to produce anything to fill the holes I punched in your armchair, unresearched arguments.
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Old 07-02-21, 06:11 PM
  #66  
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Originally Posted by surak View Post
My bad, I mistook your sincere exit from the debate with your tail tucked behind your legs for sarcastic snipes aimed at getting in the last word when you failed to produce anything to fill the holes I punched in your armchair, unresearched arguments.
No, it was sincere - how could I possibly shake the mighty foundation of your concrete guessery?
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Old 07-02-21, 06:39 PM
  #67  
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No, it was sincere - how could I possibly shake the mighty foundation of your concrete guessery?
Right, that concrete guessery that's proven solid enough to withstand your talking points about luxury cars and people using the Internet differently.

Now that we're past the denouement and in the retrospective phase of the conversation, I'll share that from my pov it looked like someone expecting their assumptions about Wahoo owners carrying stiffer upper lips, while putting their pants on starting with the opposite leg from Garmin owners, to carry their point. It sure didn't look like someone who even knew how critical Bluetooth connectivity was to using an Elemnt before coming into this.
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Old 07-02-21, 06:51 PM
  #68  
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Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest View Post
I think the moral of this story is you only buy these things at a place with a good return policy.
REI Coop ftw.
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Old 07-02-21, 06:53 PM
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Originally Posted by surak View Post
Right, that concrete guessery that's proven solid enough to withstand your talking points about luxury cars and people using the Internet differently.

Now that we're past the denouement and in the retrospective phase of the conversation, I'll share that from my pov it looked like someone expecting their assumptions about Wahoo owners carrying stiffer upper lips, while putting their pants on starting with the opposite leg from Garmin owners, to carry their point. It sure didn't look like someone who even knew how critical Bluetooth connectivity was to using an Elemnt before coming into this.
Confidence that would make Messrs Dunning and Kruger proud - chapeau and adieu!
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Old 07-02-21, 07:05 PM
  #70  
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Confidence that would make Messrs Dunning and Kruger proud - chapeau and adieu!
"They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it's not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance."

Au revoir! 👋
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Old 07-02-21, 07:47 PM
  #71  
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Originally Posted by Warbird21 View Post
I have a hand me down Edge 500 and I'll upgrade at the end of the season. Does the Garmin 530 show battery life? I have a 500 Edge, but battery life is only shown, for a few seconds, at start up when it acquires the satellite. The battery life meter % is so tiny, I have a hard time reading it. By the time I dig up a pair of reading glasses, its gone. Once setup, the 500 Edge provides everything I need. So, I'm leaning towards a 530.
Batery life on the 530 is much better than the 520. There's a small icon on the main page and a larger icon and % on the status page. I had to look as I've not paid any attention since the battery life has never been an issue for me.

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Old 07-02-21, 07:57 PM
  #72  
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Originally Posted by surak View Post
I've already pointed out that there are in fact venues where these nearly equivalent devices are commented on by users with highly overlapping use-cases, namely DC Rainmaker.
I've ridden with Ray.* I believe you can usually find a Garmin 530 on his handlebar.

* After that post came out, I asked my kid whether that camera made my butt look big. She said, "No, your butt makes your butt look big."
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Old 07-02-21, 08:22 PM
  #73  
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Originally Posted by RChung View Post
I've ridden with Ray.* I believe you can usually find a Garmin 530 on his handlebar.
Not in small parr due to his issues with the Bolt 2.0 affecting people living in the Netherlands, I'm sure.

The comments there are also elucidating to read. Many teething issues with the Bolt 2.0, but of the litany of complaints, not any about Bluetooth disconnecting and causing essential computer functions to stop working. No one is making a strong stand that Garmin Edges provide the better experience when newly released.
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Old 07-02-21, 09:56 PM
  #74  
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Originally Posted by surak View Post
You seem pretty sure about a lot of things. The problems with the 2.0 were irrelevant to his choice. He's been using a 530 as his "standard of comparison" for a while. That's why it's nearly always on his handlebar.
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Old 07-02-21, 10:06 PM
  #75  
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Originally Posted by RChung View Post
You seem pretty sure about a lot of things. The problems with the 2.0 were irrelevant to his choice. He's been using a 530 as his "standard of comparison" for a while. That's why it's nearly always on his handlebar.
How about the Bolt 2.0 being out for only two months having some relevance to why he'd use the 530 "for a while". Why would anyone expect a tech reviewer to use a 4-year old bike computer rather than a 2-year old bike computer?

One thing I'm sure about is that some people around here have totally missed my point that Garmin Edges tend to have more Bluetooth connection issues with paired phones, projecting some imagined objection to all things Garmin and being pro Wahoo.
​​​​​​
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