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Importance of foot retention

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Importance of foot retention

Old 07-30-21, 12:30 AM
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Originally Posted by LarrySellerz
yeah so after getting the cleats
OMG, pics. Gotta see you looking like the last pic but with road shoes.
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Old 07-30-21, 12:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Koyote
I'm just wondering how long I should be able to do it on a freewheel bike...I can regularly hold a position for 3-4 seconds before I have to release the front brake slightly and creep forward a couple inches in order to regain/maintain my balance. That's the best I can manage after casually working at it for about 15 years.
Is that with your front tyre pointing up the camber, or on flat ground? I'd describe my trackstanding like yours if I'm on a slight downhill.
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Old 07-30-21, 08:39 AM
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I just found these:
​​​​​​https://www.ebay.com/itm/262387206497
Just the things you need to learn how to track stand.
I once knew a guy who had a set but he mostly used them on his racing tricycle
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Old 07-30-21, 10:30 AM
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This has been a fun thread, so I hope I don't ruin it by posting something on topic.

Here's my pedal power phase diagram from yesterday's ride:




The light green curve is the 90% power (where 90% of the total power is generated), the darker green is the 50% power.

Notice that the 90% power starts before top dead center, and it continues beyond bottom dead center.

I don't think I would be able to do that without foot retention, so I cast my vote for foot retention: yes please.
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Old 07-30-21, 07:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest
Track stand is a valuable skill, like a bunny hop. I think it's like a plank, where beyond a certain point there stops being much benefit. For me, that's a long red light, or how long it takes a kid or old person to walk across the street. Like you, I keep the bike almost perfectly still, the key word being almost. 🙂
Agreed. I do it as a practical thing, not for fun. If I stop a few feet behind the next vehicle, I can generally make it through a light without unclipping, and that's enough.


Originally Posted by Kimmo
Is that with your front tyre pointing up the camber, or on flat ground? I'd describe my trackstanding like yours if I'm on a slight downhill.
Flat pavement, front tire (I'm in the the USA) generally pointed straight ahead, or slightly to one side.
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Old 08-01-21, 01:08 PM
  #156  
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Originally Posted by terrymorse
This has been a fun thread, so I hope I don't ruin it by posting something on topic.

Here's my pedal power phase diagram from yesterday's ride:




The light green curve is the 90% power (where 90% of the total power is generated), the darker green is the 50% power.

Notice that the 90% power starts before top dead center, and it continues beyond bottom dead center.

I don't think I would be able to do that without foot retention, so I cast my vote for foot retention: yes please.
Well, this was one of the few threads where the thread drift was probably a good thing.

But to your point...
Actually, that IS totally doable without foot retention. It mostly depends what kind of pedals and shoes you are using.
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Old 08-02-21, 11:11 AM
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Originally Posted by LarrySellerz
Sup guys, how important do you think foot retention is for road bikes? Someone I ride with has been bugging me to get clipped in. I thought it was just for speed but apparently it's for safety as well because my feet could slip off the pedals at an intense pace? This doesn't really make sense to me, but do people crash because of that? How much better are the clipless things than just leather straps.

i was under the impression that foot retention is really only important when standing up sprinting but I'm clueless. I've never used it, am I missing out?
A good SDS or Look/Shimano triangular clip on will always give more energy to the thrust and less to the wiggling around of the foot. I prefer clip on pedals for the road. I also run SDS/platform pedals on my Gravel/Cyclocross bike, as I don't want to clip in on hairy trail downhills.

As to actual energy transfer, I doubt you win or lose more than 5-10%.
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Old 08-02-21, 11:14 AM
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Iím sure someone has done a study and can give specific data, but potentially clipped or secured feet can double your pedal power as you get power on the up stroke, not just the down stroke. Cleated shoes do have adjustable release pressures but require some skill. If youíre concerned about safety, start slow and use some of the alternatives shown in this thread like half-clips until you feel confident. But fully cleared shoes make a world of difference especially on a climb or sprint.

If cleated shoes donít make a difference then why do all pro riders on the road and track use them? Simple, they make a huge difference.

Studies show that road cyclist see a 15%-30% improvement in power using clipless pedals during sprints, less on hills. See the YouTube from Global Cycling Network on this. It's a good study. A separate study was conducted in 2012 at Ft. Hays State showing a 10% improvement using clipless shoes with mountainbikers. My experience was +50% (double power). Lot's of anectdotal opinions flying around here, shocked how many are ill informed and flat out wrong. Look at the studies.

Last edited by StanJF; 08-02-21 at 07:58 PM.
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Old 08-02-21, 11:14 AM
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Toe clips are a mixed bag.

Originally Posted by LarrySellerz
Sup guys, how important do you think foot retention is for road bikes? Someone I ride with has been bugging me to get clipped in. I thought it was just for speed but apparently it's for safety as well because my feet could slip off the pedals at an intense pace? This doesn't really make sense to me, but do people crash because of that? How much better are the clipless things than just leather straps.

i was under the impression that foot retention is really only important when standing up sprinting but I'm clueless. I've never used it, am I missing out?
You don't need toe clips at all. That said, I find riding with toe clips to be more enjoyable. My take is they help you feel more connected to the bike and just more fun. Yes you can pull up on the pedals for a more complete energy pull but it doesn't really increase speed. The downside is that with toe clips you WILL fall over with your feet stuck on the toe clips. It is inevitable until you get used to them and learn. Also, if you do hit a quick stop emergency you will also fall with your toes clipped in even if you are a very experienced rider. It is just a fact.

Don't let your friend push you into this if you are happy with what you have.
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Old 08-02-21, 11:19 AM
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Originally Posted by billnuke1

Easy bolt onÖnever had my foot slip out!

I can wear any shoes with theseÖeasy in and outÖ
What brand are those clips? I'd like to try some.
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Old 08-02-21, 11:22 AM
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Switching to clip-ins on my suburban bike was a game changer for me. I couldn't understand why I had so much ankle pain. Then made the switch and no pain. I was spending too much time and effort just keeping my feet on the pedals. It is a personal preference and ignore what naysayers say.
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Old 08-02-21, 11:44 AM
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Originally Posted by stuartmoc
Switching to clip-ins on my suburban bike was a game changer for me. I couldn't understand why I had so much ankle pain. Then made the switch and no pain. I was spending too much time and effort just keeping my feet on the pedals. It is a personal preference and ignore what naysayers say.
Wouldn't that usually be, "Nay!"?
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Old 08-02-21, 01:43 PM
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[QUOTE=LarrySellerz;22159393]Sup guys, how important do you think foot retention is for road bikes? Someone I ride with has been bugging me to get clipped in. I thought it was just for speed but apparently it's for safety as well because my feet could slip off the pedals at an intense pace? This doesn't really make sense to me, but do people crash because of that? How much better are the clipless things than just leather straps.

i was under the impression that foot retention is really only important when standing up sprinting but I'm clueless. I've never used it, am I missing out?[/QUOTE

Hey there, clipless pedals are really great to use because it gives you physical advantages more so than flat pedals. It allows you to use more different muscle groups. With clipless, you can use up stroke efficiently because the foot is clamp on to the pedal and you would pull up the foot. Flat pedals you can't do up stroke. When you are new to clipless, you will have to train your one foot to pull up while your other foot push down simultaneously. Once you master this, you will notice that you are pedaling more efficiently by utilizing full up and down strokes. Also, you will not have to down shift gears as much when you are starting from stopping point.

Only down side of clipless is that you have to unclip your feet when you are at the stop, otherwise you will fall off to the side. You will have to train yourself to unclip before coming to a full stop.
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Old 08-02-21, 02:07 PM
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Originally Posted by StanJF
I’m sure someone has done a study and can give specific data, but potentially clipped or secured feet can double your pedal power as you get power on the up stroke, not just the down stroke. Cleated shoes do have adjustable release pressures but require some skill. If you’re concerned about safety, start slow and use some of the alternatives shown in this thread like half-clips until you feel confident. But fully cleared shoes make a world of difference especially on a climb or sprint.
Unfortunately this is not true. It's so not true it isn't worth discussing.
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Old 08-02-21, 02:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Dvdvija

Hey there, clipless pedals are really great to use because it gives you physical advantages more so than flat pedals. It allows you to use more different muscle groups. With clipless, you can use up stroke efficiently because the foot is clamp on to the pedal and you would pull up the foot. Flat pedals you can't do up stroke. When you are new to clipless, you will have to train your one foot to pull up while your other foot push down simultaneously. Once you master this, you will notice that you are pedaling more efficiently by utilizing full up and down strokes. Also, you will not have to down shift gears as much when you are starting from stopping point.

Only down side of clipless is that you have to unclip your feet when you are at the stop, otherwise you will fall off to the side. You will have to train yourself to unclip before coming to a full stop.
Another foot pulling myth.
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Old 08-02-21, 02:14 PM
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Originally Posted by PeteHski
I use flats on MTB too, but clipless on the road. The pulling up thing gets mentioned a lot, but I think itís a red herring. Nobody really pulls on their pedals unless they want to injure themselves. Track sprinters are an exception.

I have ďpinnedĒ myself a few times on the mountain bike but I prefer not to be clipped in off road. On road I like the security and precision of clipless pedals.
I am 69 yrs old and have been road cycling for about 5 years. I definitely pull up on my pedals, especially when sitting and going up hills. It keeps me from totally wearing out my quads because I am using my hammies and glutes when pulling up.

Leroy
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Old 08-02-21, 02:17 PM
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Itís true and donít let anyone tell you different
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Old 08-02-21, 02:20 PM
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Originally Posted by lgharis51
I am 69 yrs old and have been road cycling for about 5 years. I definitely pull up on my pedals, especially when sitting and going up hills. It keeps me from totally wearing out my quads because I am using my hammies and glutes when pulling up.

Leroy
Sorry, but there are enough studies out there demonstrating that this is a poor technique.
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Old 08-02-21, 02:20 PM
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Originally Posted by StanJF
Itís true and donít let anyone tell you different
No this is not the truth
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Old 08-02-21, 02:23 PM
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If foot retention, especially using cleats doesnít work then why do all pro riders, road or track, use them? Simple, they work and donít believe otherwise.
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Old 08-02-21, 02:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Koyote
If you want to experiment with foot retention, without spending lots of money for special pedals and shoes, I suggest duct tape.
gorilla tape is wayyy better.
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Old 08-02-21, 02:30 PM
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Originally Posted by StanJF
If foot retention, especially using cleats doesnít work then why do all pro riders, road or track, use them? Simple, they work and donít believe otherwise.
They work for keeping your feet on the pedals, sure, but they don't double your power. That's just silly talk.
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Old 08-02-21, 02:42 PM
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Originally Posted by StanJF
If foot retention, especially using cleats doesnít work then why do all pro riders, road or track, use them? Simple, they work and donít believe otherwise.
It works, it just doesn't do what some think it does.

There is a host of advantages, but outside of a sprint (which is basically essential if you are a road racer or track sprinter) maximal force production isn't the limit in how much power you can produce. Doing 400W you are basically pushing down a 30kg weight.

The advantages of road clipless which you totally should use on a road bike don't lie in more sustained power. I actually have a power meter on a bike with flat pedals and on road clipless, in a sprint the difference is big, long sustained efforts, negligible.
​​​​​​
Handling, ​​​​​cornering, sprinting, descending, going over bumps... road clipless all the way.
​​​​​
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Old 08-02-21, 03:26 PM
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For several reasons (one leg being 1 1/2" shorter than the other is one fo them) I can't go clippless.
I started out with toe clips...I had a clever person modify a metal toe clip so that it was deep enough to go over the 1 or extra rubbber on the sole of my shoe.
The I switched to straps, trying several kinds before I found the one that I thought was best. Straps are better than toe clips.
Two years ago, I decided to go a day without the straps. And then another...
and soon enough, that was that. I have been much happier this way, and my feet have never left the pedals or have i had any problems. Keep in mind that I'm somewhat slow no matter what.
12 or so years ago, I was in Rocky mountain national park. THere's a road there (Trail ridge road) that goes up 13,000 feet. MY wife and I drove up that road....I expected to see a lot (or at least some) cyclists. I didn't yet know it was supposed to rain that day.
Only saw ONE person up that road on a bike. Got to talk to her at a rest area.
A 75 year old women. I noticed: she was not clipless nor did she have toe clips or anything. Her husband (who could no longer ride) was following behind in their van.
She had foot problems like mine (sort of). She'd also had a knee replacement the year before (which was what gave me the gumption to finally get the one I'd been avoiding for years). You can get by without is the the bottom line.
If I could go clipless I would, I'm sure it's got real advantages. But one can live without.
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Old 08-02-21, 03:35 PM
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There are the best alternative to clipless I ever tried. But theN: i abandoned them. I lfound I was happy with that type of pedal without the strap (platforrm).
https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/...?ie=UTF8&psc=1
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