Importance of foot retention
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This part at least is true... for those who have not learned how to do a track stand. Everything else in Dvdvija's post is up for debate (as has been happening throughout this long thread). But I think we can all agree that it's usually important to unclip when stopping.
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Worth noting, however, in the 'power circle' that Kapusta posted above, that power comes on before TDC and continues past BDC. Not so much "pulling up", of course. More pulling through.
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Actual studies, not anecdotal arguments, show an improvement in power of 15%-30% for road cyclists and 10% for Mountainbikers using clipless pedals vs flat. It’s most significant in sprints and to a lesser extent on hills. When I said double power (+50%), it was based only on my own experience. The reports are on the web. Data doesn’t lie, only people do.
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Actual studies, not anecdotal arguments, show an improvement in power of 15%-30% for road cyclists and 10% for Mountainbikers using clipless pedals vs flat. It’s most significant in sprints and to a lesser extent on hills. When I said double power (+50%), it was based only on my own experience. The reports are on the web. Data doesn’t lie, only people do.
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Sup guys, how important do you think foot retention is for road bikes? Someone I ride with has been bugging me to get clipped in. I thought it was just for speed but apparently it's for safety as well because my feet could slip off the pedals at an intense pace? This doesn't really make sense to me, but do people crash because of that? How much better are the clipless things than just leather straps.
i was under the impression that foot retention is really only important when standing up sprinting but I'm clueless. I've never used it, am I missing out?
i was under the impression that foot retention is really only important when standing up sprinting but I'm clueless. I've never used it, am I missing out?
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I feel like we had a whole discussion about this and came to more or less of an agreement, and now some late comers are chiming in without even having read previous posts. Anyone else get that vibe?
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#186
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Sup guys, how important do you think foot retention is for road bikes? Someone I ride with has been bugging me to get clipped in. I thought it was just for speed but apparently it's for safety as well because my feet could slip off the pedals at an intense pace? This doesn't really make sense to me, but do people crash because of that? How much better are the clipless things than just leather straps.
i was under the impression that foot retention is really only important when standing up sprinting but I'm clueless. I've never used it, am I missing out?
i was under the impression that foot retention is really only important when standing up sprinting but I'm clueless. I've never used it, am I missing out?

I prefer to retain my feet. Makes it tough to ride without them (not sure the end of my leg would get along very well with the pedal

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Actual studies, not anecdotal arguments, show an improvement in power of 15%-30% for road cyclists and 10% for Mountainbikers using clipless pedals vs flat. It’s most significant in sprints and to a lesser extent on hills. When I said double power (+50%), it was based only on my own experience. The reports are on the web. Data doesn’t lie, only people do.
Clips allow you to pull up as well as push down which is why they are associated with racing and speed. They allow you to control the pedal position when leaning into a turn. They do prevent slipping off the pedaI. I have always found them much more comfortable than riding unclipped. They look cool. Ordinary pedals look...ordinary.
"Elite cyclists actually pull up on each upstroke less than non-elite cyclists. Instead of pulling up on the pedals, elite cyclists minimise the power absorbed on the upward stroke (1)"
"Riders who deliberately pull up on the pedal stroke actually use more energy and are less efficient (2)"
"Deliberately modifying your pedal stroke to emphasise pulling up reduces your metabolic efficiency (3)"
References taken from the Journal of Sports Sciences and Medicine & Science in Sports and Excercise:-
1. Coyle, "Physiological and Biomechanical Factors Associated with Elite Endurance-Cycling Performance (1991)
2. Edwards, "Whole Body Efficiency is Negatively Correlated with Minimum Torque per Duty Cycle in Trained Cyclists (2009)
3. Korff, "Effect of Pedaling Technique on Mechanical Effectiveness and Efficiency in Cyclists" (2007)
I also posted quite a few links earlier in this thread. Here's one of them again in case you missed it.
https://www.cyclefit.co.uk/journal/c...ling-technique
A quick summary of the above link:-
"The research says we don’t (pull up on the pedals) – Dr Jeff Broker has done extensive pedalling kinesiology tests on 100 elite and professional cyclists over 10 years and his data shows that not one of them produces a meaningful upstroke."
"You will see that even elites and pros have a negative loading on the pedal during the ‘upstream’ or recovery phase of the pedalling circle. That is to say that even they don’t produce enough force at the pedal to offset the effect of gravity on their uphill-moving leg!"
There are going to be a few edge cases e.g. standing start track sprints, very low cadence climbing in a big gear, where pulling up on the pedals might be of some benefit. Or you may be deliberately pulling up on your pedals because you think that's the most efficient way to pedal. But that's not what scientific studies have shown to be good practice.
I'm also going to clarify one more time that I personally think clipless pedals are great and have been using them since the mid 1980s for all my road riding. I only mentioned this "pulling-up myth" in the first place because of people inevitably claiming that it's a primary benefit and major power advantage over flat pedals. @StanJF deserves a special mention for stating that "data doesn't lie, only people do" after stating that pulling up on your pedals doubles your power output. You just couldn't make this stuff up. It's hilarious!
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I'm not looking for edge cases here, I'm just trying to point out that pedal pulling is not really a fundamental advantage of clipless pedals. They have plenty of other advantages, which is why I use them. But power is not one of them. I wish I could double my power output by pulling as that would increase my sprint power to 2400W and my FTP would be pushing 600W. I'd be happy with that!
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Yes I have tried. I do occasionally do single leg cadence drills (although I'm not convinced about their benefits) which always reminds me how weak our hip-flexors really are relative to glutes.
I go with the science and try to pedal smoothly without consciously pulling on the upstroke. I find pedalling at a slightly higher cadence than normal (like +10 rpm) and very high cadence drills are the most effective ways to develop a smoother pedal stroke. That and simply just riding a lot since I was about 5 years old. Which reminds me that Andrew Coggan does actually warn against trying to consciously "modify" your pedal stroke as it can be detrimental to your efficiency.
I go with the science and try to pedal smoothly without consciously pulling on the upstroke. I find pedalling at a slightly higher cadence than normal (like +10 rpm) and very high cadence drills are the most effective ways to develop a smoother pedal stroke. That and simply just riding a lot since I was about 5 years old. Which reminds me that Andrew Coggan does actually warn against trying to consciously "modify" your pedal stroke as it can be detrimental to your efficiency.
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I'm not looking for edge cases here, I'm just trying to point out that pedal pulling is not really a fundamental advantage of clipless pedals. They have plenty of other advantages, which is why I use them. But power is not one of them. I wish I could double my power output by pulling as that would increase my sprint power to 2400W and my FTP would be pushing 600W. I'd be happy with that!
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For many, sprinting is not an edge case and you can put out more power when sprinting clipped in. I've done the comparison myself on my normal route and there are numerous points in the ride where being clipped in results in more power. None of the studies you quoted dispute this.
I wonder what actually limits your power on flat pedals when sprinting? Are you sure it's your upstroke power (do you get that resolution on your power data?) or simply the fact that you are fixed securely in a more optimum foot position on the pedal? All the studies I have read state or imply that it is impossible to pull up with a positive force on your pedals at a high cadence and power, even if you were trying to. So now it's your turn to show me the peer reviewed studies that demonstrate otherwise.
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You mean that Larry should not be hitting on some dude’s girlfriend?
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I'm not going to dispute that either and I never intended to.
I wonder what actually limits your power on flat pedals when sprinting? Are you sure it's your upstroke power (do you get that resolution on your power data?) or simply the fact that you are fixed securely in a more optimum foot position on the pedal? All the studies I have read state or imply that it is impossible to pull up with a positive force on your pedals at a high cadence and power, even if you were trying to. So now it's your turn to show me the peer reviewed studies that demonstrate otherwise.
I wonder what actually limits your power on flat pedals when sprinting? Are you sure it's your upstroke power (do you get that resolution on your power data?) or simply the fact that you are fixed securely in a more optimum foot position on the pedal? All the studies I have read state or imply that it is impossible to pull up with a positive force on your pedals at a high cadence and power, even if you were trying to. So now it's your turn to show me the peer reviewed studies that demonstrate otherwise.
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Sup guys, how important do you think foot retention is for road bikes? Someone I ride with has been bugging me to get clipped in. I thought it was just for speed but apparently it's for safety as well because my feet could slip off the pedals at an intense pace? This doesn't really make sense to me, but do people crash because of that? How much better are the clipless things than just leather straps.
i was under the impression that foot retention is really only important when standing up sprinting but I'm clueless. I've never used it, am I missing out?
i was under the impression that foot retention is really only important when standing up sprinting but I'm clueless. I've never used it, am I missing out?
If you're not familiar with them, they're a fairly wide (1" or thereabouts) reinforced canvas strap that you put one end on the front of a pedal & the other on the opposite side of the rear of the pedal, such that when you insert your foot it supplies torque, holding the foot to the pedal. I've used 'em for nearly twenty years, and have yet to fall as a result of their use. Also, you can pull on the upstroke with them if you like--I've found it makes a difference when climbing or sprinting--and they're way less expensive than clipless, because you can use any footwear you like.