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Importance of foot retention

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Importance of foot retention

Old 08-02-21, 03:49 PM
  #176  
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Originally Posted by Dvdvija
Only down side of clipless is that you have to unclip your feet when you are at the stop, otherwise you will fall off to the side. You will have to train yourself to unclip before coming to a full stop.
This part at least is true... for those who have not learned how to do a track stand. Everything else in Dvdvija's post is up for debate (as has been happening throughout this long thread). But I think we can all agree that it's usually important to unclip when stopping.
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Old 08-02-21, 03:56 PM
  #177  
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Originally Posted by WhyFi
They work for keeping your feet on the pedals, sure, but they don't double your power. That's just silly talk.
Doubling you power is indeed silly talk. The 'pushing down' muscles are WAY stronger, what with having to oppose gravity and all.

Worth noting, however, in the 'power circle' that Kapusta posted above, that power comes on before TDC and continues past BDC. Not so much "pulling up", of course. More pulling through.
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Old 08-02-21, 06:02 PM
  #178  
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Foot pulling myth?

Originally Posted by PeteHski
Another foot pulling myth.
Hey, how do you figure foot pulling is a myth? Have you tried?
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Old 08-02-21, 06:14 PM
  #179  
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Originally Posted by WhyFi
They work for keeping your feet on the pedals, sure, but they don't double your power. That's just silly talk.
Actual studies, not anecdotal arguments, show an improvement in power of 15%-30% for road cyclists and 10% for Mountainbikers using clipless pedals vs flat. Itís most significant in sprints and to a lesser extent on hills. When I said double power (+50%), it was based only on my own experience. The reports are on the web. Data doesnít lie, only people do.
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Old 08-02-21, 06:24 PM
  #180  
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Originally Posted by StanJF
Actual studies, not anecdotal arguments, show an improvement in power of 15%-30% for road cyclists and 10% for Mountainbikers using clipless pedals vs flat. Itís most significant in sprints and to a lesser extent on hills. When I said double power (+50%), it was based only on my own experience. The reports are on the web. Data doesnít lie, only people do.
I just don't know where to start, so I won't bother. Yikes.
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Old 08-02-21, 06:30 PM
  #181  
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Originally Posted by WhyFi
I just don't know where to start, so I won't bother. Yikes.
How about "+50% isn't doubling"?
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Old 08-02-21, 06:37 PM
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Originally Posted by genejockey
How about "+50% isn't doubling"?
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Old 08-02-21, 07:01 PM
  #183  
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Originally Posted by LarrySellerz
Sup guys, how important do you think foot retention is for road bikes? Someone I ride with has been bugging me to get clipped in. I thought it was just for speed but apparently it's for safety as well because my feet could slip off the pedals at an intense pace? This doesn't really make sense to me, but do people crash because of that? How much better are the clipless things than just leather straps.

i was under the impression that foot retention is really only important when standing up sprinting but I'm clueless. I've never used it, am I missing out?
Clips allow you to pull up as well as push down which is why they are associated with racing and speed. They allow you to control the pedal position when leaning into a turn. They do prevent slipping off the pedaI. I have always found them much more comfortable than riding unclipped. They look cool. Ordinary pedals look...ordinary.
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Old 08-02-21, 07:13 PM
  #184  
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I feel like we had a whole discussion about this and came to more or less of an agreement, and now some late comers are chiming in without even having read previous posts. Anyone else get that vibe?
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Old 08-02-21, 07:16 PM
  #185  
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Some of us are new to this forum.
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Old 08-02-21, 07:27 PM
  #186  
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Originally Posted by LarrySellerz
Sup guys, how important do you think foot retention is for road bikes? Someone I ride with has been bugging me to get clipped in. I thought it was just for speed but apparently it's for safety as well because my feet could slip off the pedals at an intense pace? This doesn't really make sense to me, but do people crash because of that? How much better are the clipless things than just leather straps.

i was under the impression that foot retention is really only important when standing up sprinting but I'm clueless. I've never used it, am I missing out?
Not to be a smart ass...well, OK, yes I will....

I prefer to retain my feet. Makes it tough to ride without them (not sure the end of my leg would get along very well with the pedal
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Old 08-02-21, 07:43 PM
  #187  
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Originally Posted by stephr1
Not to be a smart ass...well, OK, yes I will....

I prefer to retain my feet. Makes it tough to ride without them (not sure the end of my leg would get along very well with the pedal
(I made that joke two days ago)
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Old 08-02-21, 07:55 PM
  #188  
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Originally Posted by genejockey
(I made that joke two days ago)
I guess great Bay Area minds think alike. I never saw yours but am happy to cite you as a source for my material

Cheers....
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Old 08-02-21, 08:09 PM
  #189  
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Originally Posted by genejockey
How about "+50% isn't doubling"?
My own experience was more than double power which is more than 50% (+50%). Sheesh. Sensitive.
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Old 08-02-21, 08:12 PM
  #190  
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Originally Posted by PeteHski
Sorry, but there are enough studies out there demonstrating that this is a poor technique.
Please share a study showing the effects of clipless pedals while sprinting. And then explain why track riders are both clipped and strapped in.
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Old 08-03-21, 04:10 AM
  #191  
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Originally Posted by Dvdvija
Hey, how do you figure foot pulling is a myth? Have you tried?
Originally Posted by StanJF
Actual studies, not anecdotal arguments, show an improvement in power of 15%-30% for road cyclists and 10% for Mountainbikers using clipless pedals vs flat. Itís most significant in sprints and to a lesser extent on hills. When I said double power (+50%), it was based only on my own experience. The reports are on the web. Data doesnít lie, only people do.
Originally Posted by J28
Clips allow you to pull up as well as push down which is why they are associated with racing and speed. They allow you to control the pedal position when leaning into a turn. They do prevent slipping off the pedaI. I have always found them much more comfortable than riding unclipped. They look cool. Ordinary pedals look...ordinary.
Originally Posted by StanJF
My own experience was more than double power which is more than 50% (+50%). Sheesh. Sensitive.
Originally Posted by gregf83
Please share a study showing the effects of clipless pedals while sprinting. And then explain why track riders are both clipped and strapped in.
Okay let's go through this again one more time. Here is a summary by Dr Andrew Coggan in Training & Racing with a Power Meter (a very credible and reliable source)

"Elite cyclists actually pull up on each upstroke less than non-elite cyclists. Instead of pulling up on the pedals, elite cyclists minimise the power absorbed on the upward stroke (1)"

"Riders who deliberately pull up on the pedal stroke actually use more energy and are less efficient (2)"

"Deliberately modifying your pedal stroke to emphasise pulling up reduces your metabolic efficiency (3)"

References taken from the Journal of Sports Sciences and Medicine & Science in Sports and Excercise:-

1. Coyle, "Physiological and Biomechanical Factors Associated with Elite Endurance-Cycling Performance (1991)
2. Edwards, "Whole Body Efficiency is Negatively Correlated with Minimum Torque per Duty Cycle in Trained Cyclists (2009)
3. Korff, "Effect of Pedaling Technique on Mechanical Effectiveness and Efficiency in Cyclists" (2007)

I also posted quite a few links earlier in this thread. Here's one of them again in case you missed it.

https://www.cyclefit.co.uk/journal/c...ling-technique

A quick summary of the above link:-

"The research says we donít (pull up on the pedals) Ė Dr Jeff Broker has done extensive pedalling kinesiology tests on 100 elite and professional cyclists over 10 years and his data shows that not one of them produces a meaningful upstroke."

"You will see that even elites and pros have a negative loading on the pedal during the Ďupstreamí or recovery phase of the pedalling circle. That is to say that even they donít produce enough force at the pedal to offset the effect of gravity on their uphill-moving leg!"

There are going to be a few edge cases e.g. standing start track sprints, very low cadence climbing in a big gear, where pulling up on the pedals might be of some benefit. Or you may be deliberately pulling up on your pedals because you think that's the most efficient way to pedal. But that's not what scientific studies have shown to be good practice.

I'm also going to clarify one more time that I personally think clipless pedals are great and have been using them since the mid 1980s for all my road riding. I only mentioned this "pulling-up myth" in the first place because of people inevitably claiming that it's a primary benefit and major power advantage over flat pedals. @StanJF deserves a special mention for stating that "data doesn't lie, only people do" after stating that pulling up on your pedals doubles your power output. You just couldn't make this stuff up. It's hilarious!
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Old 08-03-21, 04:26 AM
  #192  
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Originally Posted by gregf83
Please share a study showing the effects of clipless pedals while sprinting. And then explain why track riders are both clipped and strapped in.
Funnily enough I haven't looked at track sprinters. I didn't think that was particularly relevant to road cycling. Now I'm sure a track sprinter hauling a massive gear from a standing start will push and pull for maximal attack, but once they get up to a normal cadence and maximal power (not maximal torque) they will not be push/pulling for the same reasons pro road racers don't or are unable to anyway. It's been proven that at high cadence and power it is virtually impossible to pull on the pedal upstroke. It's more a matter of minimising the power absorbed on the upstroke.

I'm not looking for edge cases here, I'm just trying to point out that pedal pulling is not really a fundamental advantage of clipless pedals. They have plenty of other advantages, which is why I use them. But power is not one of them. I wish I could double my power output by pulling as that would increase my sprint power to 2400W and my FTP would be pushing 600W. I'd be happy with that!
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Old 08-03-21, 04:41 AM
  #193  
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Originally Posted by Dvdvija
Hey, how do you figure foot pulling is a myth? Have you tried?
Yes I have tried. I do occasionally do single leg cadence drills (although I'm not convinced about their benefits) which always reminds me how weak our hip-flexors really are relative to glutes.
I go with the science and try to pedal smoothly without consciously pulling on the upstroke. I find pedalling at a slightly higher cadence than normal (like +10 rpm) and very high cadence drills are the most effective ways to develop a smoother pedal stroke. That and simply just riding a lot since I was about 5 years old. Which reminds me that Andrew Coggan does actually warn against trying to consciously "modify" your pedal stroke as it can be detrimental to your efficiency.
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Old 08-03-21, 08:15 AM
  #194  
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Originally Posted by PeteHski
I'm not looking for edge cases here, I'm just trying to point out that pedal pulling is not really a fundamental advantage of clipless pedals. They have plenty of other advantages, which is why I use them. But power is not one of them. I wish I could double my power output by pulling as that would increase my sprint power to 2400W and my FTP would be pushing 600W. I'd be happy with that!
For many, sprinting is not an edge case and you can put out more power when sprinting clipped in. I've done the comparison myself on my normal route and there are numerous points in the ride where being clipped in results in more power. None of the studies you quoted dispute this.
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Old 08-03-21, 08:44 AM
  #195  
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Originally Posted by gregf83
For many, sprinting is not an edge case and you can put out more power when sprinting clipped in. I've done the comparison myself on my normal route and there are numerous points in the ride where being clipped in results in more power. None of the studies you quoted dispute this.
I'm not going to dispute that either and I never intended to.
I wonder what actually limits your power on flat pedals when sprinting? Are you sure it's your upstroke power (do you get that resolution on your power data?) or simply the fact that you are fixed securely in a more optimum foot position on the pedal? All the studies I have read state or imply that it is impossible to pull up with a positive force on your pedals at a high cadence and power, even if you were trying to. So now it's your turn to show me the peer reviewed studies that demonstrate otherwise.
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Old 08-03-21, 10:06 AM
  #196  
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Studies are garbage, what do the pros and pro coaches say
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Old 08-03-21, 10:30 AM
  #197  
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Originally Posted by Broctoon
I feel like we had a whole discussion about this and came to more or less of an agreement, and now some late comers are chiming in without even having read previous posts. Anyone else get that vibe?
What was that agreement?

You mean that Larry should not be hitting on some dudeís girlfriend?
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Old 08-03-21, 11:55 AM
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Originally Posted by PeteHski
I'm not going to dispute that either and I never intended to.
I wonder what actually limits your power on flat pedals when sprinting? Are you sure it's your upstroke power (do you get that resolution on your power data?) or simply the fact that you are fixed securely in a more optimum foot position on the pedal? All the studies I have read state or imply that it is impossible to pull up with a positive force on your pedals at a high cadence and power, even if you were trying to. So now it's your turn to show me the peer reviewed studies that demonstrate otherwise.
I can feel it when sprinting up a steep hill. I pull up. I agree, and have confirmed for myself, that for steady state riding clips make no difference to power or efficiency. I haven't seen any studies that look at pedal mechanics while sprinting, they generally are looking at steady state type efforts. But even if you're properly unweighting the pedal while standing and sprinting it's not very comfortable if your feet aren't secured. I didn't notice a huge difference, but something like 100-200W extra when clipped in. Most noticeable going up a short steep hills which we usually see a number of on any given ride.
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Old 08-03-21, 01:23 PM
  #199  
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Originally Posted by LarrySellerz
Studies are garbage, what do the pros and pro coaches say
Most of the studies are with pros and pro coaches.
It's the forum talk that is full of garbage.
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Old 08-03-21, 02:31 PM
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Originally Posted by LarrySellerz
Sup guys, how important do you think foot retention is for road bikes? Someone I ride with has been bugging me to get clipped in. I thought it was just for speed but apparently it's for safety as well because my feet could slip off the pedals at an intense pace? This doesn't really make sense to me, but do people crash because of that? How much better are the clipless things than just leather straps.

i was under the impression that foot retention is really only important when standing up sprinting but I'm clueless. I've never used it, am I missing out?
I have three bikes, each with a different style pedal. My Colnago has Look clipless (which I am still trying to get used to), my Bianchi has toeclips, and my Bacchetta has Power Grips, which I find to be a nice sort-of halfway point between flats or toeclips and clipless.

If you're not familiar with them, they're a fairly wide (1" or thereabouts) reinforced canvas strap that you put one end on the front of a pedal & the other on the opposite side of the rear of the pedal, such that when you insert your foot it supplies torque, holding the foot to the pedal. I've used 'em for nearly twenty years, and have yet to fall as a result of their use. Also, you can pull on the upstroke with them if you like--I've found it makes a difference when climbing or sprinting--and they're way less expensive than clipless, because you can use any footwear you like.
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