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New bike time! Ti vs. Carbon, Race vs. Endurance, etc

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New bike time! Ti vs. Carbon, Race vs. Endurance, etc

Old 08-22-21, 09:13 AM
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guapo337
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New bike time! Ti vs. Carbon, Race vs. Endurance, etc

The drivetrain on my 2006 Trek 1500 essentially exploded yesterday (due to damage from shipping cross-country). Rather than shell out the value of the bike to fix it, I figure it's finally time for a new bike. I'm trying to spend under $3k. A bit about me: male, mid-30s, 6'2', 34" inseam with cleats. Generally riding 3-4x/week, roughly 30-35 miles per ride and I love climbing. If I can't get outside, I'll ride for 1-1.5 hours on a Wahoo Kickr Core. I've been riding the Trek 1500 since 2008, so needless to say I don't take change lightly. So, with that said, a few questions:

1. I really have no idea what type of bike I should actually be going for. Am I better suited for racing geometry (I really like the Orbea Orca M30, for example), or should I looking more at endurance / sport / gran fondo geometry? How will these styles differ? And, if anyone has any understanding of 2006 Trek geometry, how will each of those styles compare to my old bike?

2. Additionally, for as long as I can remember, I've loved the idea of titanium. I'm considering trying to push the budget a little to get into a Litespeed T5 or Ultimate, but I'm at a loss for which frame is a better option for me. Any perspectives? Obviously titanium has greater durability than carbon, and so I'm thinking that might actually be a better fit for me given my propensity for sticking with a bike for a while.

3. Lastly, disc vs rim brakes. Should I care? Seems like disc brakes are all the rage, but rim brakes have served me fine for years...?

4. What's the value of accommodating wider tires? I've never ridden gravel, but seems like everyone is into the idea of a gravel-capable bike these days. Will I be kicking myself if I spend a bunch of money on a bike that can't accommodate anything more than 25mm or 28mm tires?

The young guy in me keeps saying "get the fast bike" (the Orca, or maybe the Litespeed Ultimate?), whereas the realistic/reasonable guy knows that my riding habits are probably better suited for a more comfortable, endurance-oriented bike (Litespeed T5, or something equivalent in carbon). Would love any thoughts/suggestions folks have here! Happy to answer additional questions if I've missed anything.
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Old 08-22-21, 09:56 AM
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If you liked the Trek 1500 with it's fairly short headtube (123mm in size 56 for Trek 1500 SLR of 2006 vintage) the Orbea Orca isn't too racy a geometry for you.

A person in their 30ties with normal flexibility and who isn't overweight should be able to get comfortable on a race bike imo, especially one which isn't crazy low at the front and the Orbea Orca isn't.

As for titanium vs carbon, titanium durability might be better if it was perfectly welded but could very well break in a shorter time if it isn't. The net is full of broken titanium as well as broken carbon. N=1 but recently my steel frame snapped after 12500 km (of course, part offroad) and my carbon race bike has been going strong for nearly 16000km now, so... the fork which is basically the jesus nut of a bicycle is going to be made out of carbon anyway. Might as well go the whole hog.

​​​​​If I could have only one bike, it'd be a road (race) bike.
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Old 08-22-21, 10:04 AM
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Thanks for the reply, this is really helpful, especially re: the ability for a relatively flexible mid-30s person to get comfortable on something like the Orca. Were I to go with the Orca, I'd be buying from a shop that offers a full fitting as part of the purchase, so presumably I could get really comfy on it pretty quickly.

You mention "if you liked the Trek 1500" - part of the problem is that I don't think I really know what I like. The Trek just kinda worked because I never used anything else. I will likely pop into a few shops to chat folks up about the different options, but most places don't have very much inventory so I'm a bit stuck as it relates to actually trying stuff!

Again I appreciate your input. Looking forward to more thoughts from folks!
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Old 08-22-21, 10:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Branko D View Post
If you liked the Trek 1500 with it's fairly short headtube (123mm in size 56 for Trek 1500 SLR of 2006 vintage) the Orbea Orca isn't too racy a geometry for you.

A person in their 30ties with normal flexibility and who isn't overweight should be able to get comfortable on a race bike imo, especially one which isn't crazy low at the front and the Orbea Orca isn't.

As for titanium vs carbon, titanium durability might be better if it was perfectly welded but could very well break in a shorter time if it isn't. The net is full of broken titanium as well as broken carbon. N=1 but recently my steel frame snapped after 12500 km (of course, part offroad) and my carbon race bike has been going strong for nearly 16000km now, so... the fork which is basically the jesus nut of a bicycle is going to be made out of carbon anyway. Might as well go the whole hog.

​​​​​If I could have only one bike, it'd be a road (race) bike.
Also where did you find the geometry info for the 1500? I've been searching everywhere and haven't found anything.
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Old 08-22-21, 10:36 AM
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https://geometrygeeks.bike/
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Old 08-22-21, 10:44 AM
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thank you!
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Old 08-22-21, 11:15 AM
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Originally Posted by guapo337 View Post
Will I be kicking myself if I spend a bunch of money on a bike that can't accommodate anything more than 25mm or 28mm tires?
I wouldn't buy any new road bike that can't take at least 32 mm tyres. It has nothing to do with riding gravel. Fast road tyres are getting wider and 28-32 mm is the current sweet spot. So if you want this bike to be reasonably future-proof then you need more clearance. Obviously you can still run narrower tyres if you prefer.
You will find that nearly all modern bikes will have 32mm+ clearance as a matter of course, but worth checking.
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Old 08-22-21, 11:32 AM
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Originally Posted by PeteHski View Post
I wouldn't buy any new road bike that can't take at least 32 mm tyres. It has nothing to do with riding gravel. Fast road tyres are getting wider and 28-32 mm is the current sweet spot. So if you want this bike to be reasonably future-proof then you need more clearance. Obviously you can still run narrower tyres if you prefer.
You will find that nearly all modern bikes will have 32mm+ clearance as a matter of course, but worth checking.
Thanks, appreciate the reply. Am I correct in understanding that 32mm+ clearance is really only possible on road bikes that have disc brakes? The max clearance for the 105 brake caliper is 28mm, according to Shimano.
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Old 08-22-21, 11:36 AM
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Originally Posted by guapo337 View Post
Thanks, appreciate the reply. Am I correct in understanding that 32mm+ clearance is really only possible on road bikes that have disc brakes? The max clearance for the 105 brake caliper is 28mm, according to Shimano.
I just came back from a ride on a rim braked bike that can take 700 x 35.

I am pretty sure you are stuck with disc brakes when buying new, so, the tire width is limited by the fork clearances and the rear triangle
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Old 08-22-21, 11:45 AM
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Originally Posted by guapo337 View Post
Thanks, appreciate the reply. Am I correct in understanding that 32mm+ clearance is really only possible on road bikes that have disc brakes? The max clearance for the 105 brake caliper is 28mm, according to Shimano.
Yes, it is a limitation of most rim brakes. But you will find that nearly all new road bikes are disc brake only anyway. Like the Orbea Orca M30 you mentioned - which has good tyre clearance too, up to 35 mm.
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Old 08-22-21, 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by PeteHski View Post
Yes, it is a limitation of most rim brakes. But you will find that nearly all new road bikes are disc brake only anyway. Like the Orbea Orca M30 you mentioned - which has good tyre clearance too, up to 35 mm.
Makes sense. I'm specifically considering the Litespeed Ultimate and the Litespeed T5, both of which are rim brake bikes. They're indicated as supporting only max 25mm tires. When I speak to Litespeed I will check in about how accurate that is.
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Old 08-22-21, 12:23 PM
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Originally Posted by guapo337 View Post
Makes sense. I'm specifically considering the Litespeed Ultimate and the Litespeed T5, both of which are rim brake bikes. They're indicated as supporting only max 25mm tires. When I speak to Litespeed I will check in about how accurate that is.
If those bikes really do only support 25 mm tyres, then I would suggest crossing them off your shortlist unless you really don't want to move forward with the modern tyre tech.
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Old 08-22-21, 12:23 PM
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I wouldn't buy a rim braked bike in 2021, or one that can't accommodate 28 mm tires. Maybe 32. I guess unless the bike was severely discounted.
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Old 08-22-21, 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by guapo337 View Post
Makes sense. I'm specifically considering the Litespeed Ultimate and the Litespeed T5, both of which are rim brake bikes. They're indicated as supporting only max 25mm tires. When I speak to Litespeed I will check in about how accurate that is.
Rim brakes and 25mm max clearance would be an absolute non-starter for me. Talk about buying yourself in to a corner.

And, FWIW, I wouldn't take it as a given that Ti had greater durability than carbon.
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Old 08-22-21, 12:31 PM
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Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
Rim brakes and 25mm max clearance would be an absolute non-starter for me. Talk about buying yourself in to a corner.

And, FWIW, I wouldn't take it as a given that Ti had greater durability than carbon.
Thanks, again, very helpful. Definitely don't want to be buying myself into a corner, as I want this to be a bike I used for 10+ years. Anything you can point to re: Ti vs. Carbon? Or is that purely anecdotal?
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Old 08-22-21, 01:08 PM
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Originally Posted by guapo337 View Post
Thanks, again, very helpful. Definitely don't want to be buying myself into a corner, as I want this to be a bike I used for 10+ years. Anything you can point to re: Ti vs. Carbon? Or is that purely anecdotal?
JRA failure for just about any bike is so low that is not worth thinking about - bikes generally break when you crash them, so don't crash them. Once you do crash, all bets are off, but carbon is generally much more easily and readily repairable; of you live in/near a metro area, you'll likely have a builder/repair specialist that could take care of it.
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Old 08-22-21, 01:11 PM
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Originally Posted by guapo337 View Post
Thanks, again, very helpful. Definitely don't want to be buying myself into a corner, as I want this to be a bike I used for 10+ years. Anything you can point to re: Ti vs. Carbon? Or is that purely anecdotal?
Ti can often have weld issues that cause the tubes to separate; it's a very finicky material to weld, which has to be done in an inert-gas environment. I think it's reassuring to be able to see the issues better than carbon, where if you're the anxious sort you can see lots of hairlines that could be scratches or paint cracks or carbon cracks. That said, it's also beautiful, and with the right finish very easy to keep looking good.

Tires... I'd want all the tire clearance, basically. In the decade I've been riding, "road bike" tire clearance went from 23 to 25 to 28 to 30. As roads get worse around the country, and traffic increases push cycling further out, I want to be ahead of that curve now, so the custom steel I have on order for whenever the new groupsets are available will be a "road bike" by geometry, but have the Enve AR fork with 38c clearance. Maybe I'll mostly run 32s or 35s, but I'm done with always sitting at the limit of how much tire I can squeeze onto the bike. I'll find what I like and be able to change if I choose.

FWIW, if you're open to metal, take a look at the Fairlight Strael 3.0. If I hadn't placed a deposit elsewhere, I'd have gotten on the list for one when the delivery was November.

https://fairlightcycles.com/wp-conte...sign-Notes.pdf
https://fairlightcycles.com/product/strael3-deposit
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Old 08-22-21, 02:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Bah Humbug View Post
Ti can often have weld issues that cause the tubes to separate; it's a very finicky material to weld, which has to be done in an inert-gas environment. I think it's reassuring to be able to see the issues better than carbon, where if you're the anxious sort you can see lots of hairlines that could be scratches or paint cracks or carbon cracks. That said, it's also beautiful, and with the right finish very easy to keep looking good.

Tires... I'd want all the tire clearance, basically. In the decade I've been riding, "road bike" tire clearance went from 23 to 25 to 28 to 30. As roads get worse around the country, and traffic increases push cycling further out, I want to be ahead of that curve now, so the custom steel I have on order for whenever the new groupsets are available will be a "road bike" by geometry, but have the Enve AR fork with 38c clearance. Maybe I'll mostly run 32s or 35s, but I'm done with always sitting at the limit of how much tire I can squeeze onto the bike. I'll find what I like and be able to change if I choose.

FWIW, if you're open to metal, take a look at the Fairlight Strael 3.0. If I hadn't placed a deposit elsewhere, I'd have gotten on the list for one when the delivery was November.

https://fairlightcycles.com/wp-conte...sign-Notes.pdf
https://fairlightcycles.com/product/strael3-deposit
Thanks, really appreciate the insight on both titanium and tire clearance. As you mentioned, I love the look at the titanium - it's timeless, sleek, beautiful, etc. However, I'm realizing that if I were to go with a titanium bike, in order for it to be truly futureproof I'd need to be getting something with disc brakes and lots of tire clearance. Something that meets those criteria is quickly pushing north of 4k, and unfortunately I'm not able to spend that. The Orca M30 comes in at 2700 and seems to check all the boxes.
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Old 08-22-21, 02:37 PM
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Originally Posted by guapo337 View Post
Thanks, really appreciate the insight on both titanium and tire clearance. As you mentioned, I love the look at the titanium - it's timeless, sleek, beautiful, etc. However, I'm realizing that if I were to go with a titanium bike, in order for it to be truly futureproof I'd need to be getting something with disc brakes and lots of tire clearance. Something that meets those criteria is quickly pushing north of 4k, and unfortunately I'm not able to spend that. The Orca M30 comes in at 2700 and seems to check all the boxes.
I think the Orca M30 is a pretty good value choice to be honest, especially with a full shop fitting (presuming the shop has a good reputation).
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Old 08-22-21, 02:59 PM
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Sorry, but just from reading the thread title, you seem to be too unclear on what you need from a bike for us to be able to help you much. Riding 3-4 X week at 30-35 miles seems like a pretty casual rider to me. How much do you care about speed and hard efforts. Do you train or just smell the roses? Do you ride in groups?
If you just go out and pedal a few times/week, most any of the bikes and price points you are considering will be just fine and more bike than you need.

Do whatever. As long as the bike fits, it will be good.
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Old 08-22-21, 03:01 PM
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Buying a stock Ti serves no purpose other than the major advantage of titanium, its ability to be easily customized and manufactured on a one off basis. Impact durability would be another advantage for steel and titanium when shipping or in a touring environment would be another plus. That said I have used a Carbon adventure bike for tens of thousands of km touring without an issue.
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Old 08-22-21, 03:17 PM
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Get the fast bike in carbon

The one that fits you and your budget.

A 90-140 mile per week guy your age who likes hills is too young to be on a slow bike.
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Old 08-22-21, 03:26 PM
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Originally Posted by GhostRider62 View Post
Get the fast bike in carbon

The one that fits you and your budget.

A 90-140 mile per week guy your age who likes hills is too young to be on a slow bike.
This is the kind of encouragement I need.

Originally Posted by Atlas Shrugged View Post
Buying a stock Ti serves no purpose other than the major advantage of titanium, its ability to be easily customized and manufactured on a one off basis. Impact durability would be another advantage for steel and titanium when shipping or in a touring environment would be another plus. That said I have used a Carbon adventure bike for tens of thousands of km touring without an issue.
This is a really good point. I should by Ti when I can get it built custom, otherwise it's not nearly as worthwhile.
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Old 08-22-21, 03:58 PM
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Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
JRA failure for just about any bike is so low that is not worth thinking about - bikes generally break when you crash them, so don't crash them. Once you do crash, all bets are off, but carbon is generally much more easily and readily repairable; of you live in/near a metro area, you'll likely have a builder/repair specialist that could take care of it.
I broke a steel bike in a crash once. A rib too and that sucked enough to want to never crash again. 🙂 Any bike can break, road bikes are made to be light but strong in the ways they'll be stressed by riding. Impacts outside of that, you want to avoid if you can, no matter what the bike is made of. Unless you want custom, what the frame is made of isn't that important. Carbon is a good material that can deliver a good ride quality at a good weight.

My experience over all the bikes I've ever had matches @WhyFi's good advice.
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Old 08-22-21, 03:59 PM
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Red is the fastest color though.
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