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Myths of the road tubeless (or Go back to clinchers)

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Myths of the road tubeless (or Go back to clinchers)

Old 09-08-21, 09:13 PM
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tubeless is not hard... it's just that some people make it seem hard. I am no genius, but putting a tire on a rim, blow some air in til you hear a couple of pings, add some sealant, pump it back up, go ride. It took me 20 mins to replace my tubeless tires the other day with another size. It's not brain surgery.
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Old 09-08-21, 10:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Redbullet View Post
Vittoria Corsa speed.
That's the answer - those are really 50/50 whether they will seal or not, in my experience. I've been in your shoes and decided to just ride 25mm GP5000 TLs outside of actual races, and just use the 23mm Corsa Speeds for racing only. They are really paperthin tires. I love the speed and the feel and the light weight, but... they are a bit impractical.

Patching them, as you say, is also iffy. My wife's disc wheel has a patched Corsa and it works, so far, but I've had a few which I patched and that just did not last, and I threw them away. It does help to use really big patches if you want to do it, much bigger than the hole, so that it has more purchase on the tire.

Everyone for whom tubeless works without issues is using beefier tires (which is, practically, all other tires), that's the missing variable. I really hoped that tubeless would make the Corsa Speeds reliable enough for general riding, but nah.

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Old 09-09-21, 12:44 AM
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Just to clarify some questions:

The tubeless in discussion is 23 mm (measures 24 inflated), rated at 87 – 130 psi and I rode it at around 85 (+/-). I can’t go 28-32 mm, as the frame has no clearance, my rims are narrow – accept max 25 and I don’t like a bulky road wheel. Will ANY of the sealants work at 130 psi, as rated on the tire? Or is it misleading and I should not exceed 70 psi?
I tried a second sealant recommended by a large bike shop and it had the same behavior.
Schwalbe is a larger provider (bike tires, for example). Their kit for switching to road tubeless worked fine (rim tape, valves, sealant, a special solution for seating the tubes, tire booster – all rated for road tubeless). But didn’t work for sealing the hole. Neither the other sealant.

Just think about car tires: you don’t need any research to find a sealant that works, any small tire repair shop will do the job with any sealant they have. That IS a system that works. The same with tubes: any “no name” patch on the market will do the job - that is another system that works. But If I have to make research and expensive experiments in order to find which of the many brand sealants on the market can make the job of sealing a small hole (maybe only muc-off can make the job, from so many brand alternatives on the market?), then the system is not reliable.
And, please, don’t shoot me. It is only about my opinion, which was built up on my true experience. There is no issue if your opinion is different.
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Old 09-09-21, 12:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Branko D View Post
That's the answer - those are really 50/50 whether they will seal or not,.
Yes, could be. I used GP 4000 and 5000 clinchers at 23 mm and they were very strong and reliable.
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Old 09-09-21, 01:33 AM
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Try a different tire, imo.

If you want a narrow tire because of aerodynamics with narrow rims or tire clearance, it's a bit of a bummer that there are few 23mm tubeless tires, and most of them are timetrial specific tires without a puncture protection layer and with pretty light construction. Wealth of choice for 25mm.

I just saw on Bike24 Cadex Race tubeless in 23mm, outlandishly expensive though. When some rolling resistance results show up, maybe that will be good.

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Old 09-09-21, 07:57 AM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by Redbullet View Post
Just to clarify some questions:

The tubeless in discussion is 23 mm (measures 24 inflated), rated at 87 – 130 psi and I rode it at around 85 (+/-). I can’t go 28-32 mm, as the frame has no clearance, my rims are narrow – accept max 25 and I don’t like a bulky road wheel. Will ANY of the sealants work at 130 psi, as rated on the tire? Or is it misleading and I should not exceed 70 psi?
I tried a second sealant recommended by a large bike shop and it had the same behavior.
Schwalbe is a larger provider (bike tires, for example). Their kit for switching to road tubeless worked fine (rim tape, valves, sealant, a special solution for seating the tubes, tire booster – all rated for road tubeless). But didn’t work for sealing the hole. Neither the other sealant.

Just think about car tires: you don’t need any research to find a sealant that works, any small tire repair shop will do the job with any sealant they have. That IS a system that works. The same with tubes: any “no name” patch on the market will do the job - that is another system that works. But If I have to make research and expensive experiments in order to find which of the many brand sealants on the market can make the job of sealing a small hole (maybe only muc-off can make the job, from so many brand alternatives on the market?), then the system is not reliable.
And, please, don’t shoot me. It is only about my opinion, which was built up on my true experience. There is no issue if your opinion is different.
Reality differs from expectation. The reality is that many of the sealants on the market were developed for lower pressure applications like MTB. IMO, no sealant without particulates is suitable for road, and that includes Stan's, which is ********* at road pressures and has done more to sour people on road tubeless than anything else.

Also, a little bit of searching reveals that your "highly regarded" Schwalbe Doc Blue is made by Stan's. Womp womp.

Go get some OS. It'll take care of your 0.5mm puncture, but you then have to realize that it's not a miracle worker and that you've chosen to ride the RDO version of a tire that's already got a reputation for being delicate - those tires will likely take larger cuts and, as thin as they are, they might not seal if they're ~3mm or larger.
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Old 09-09-21, 08:10 AM
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There needs to be a universal standard for road tubeless given the tighter tolerances that are required vs MTB. I've done tubeless MTB for a long time.

Recently purchased some Bonty Aeolus TLR 3's to use as my everyday road wheel and thought what the heck, I'll try tubeless. A teammate/buddy came over and we tried to mount two separate 25c tires (Pro One - new version and IRC X-guard) and neither would seat. I tried soap on the bead and stuff too and we couldn't get it to seat even with CO2. His advice was try a different tire as it might be a bad combo. On MTB, I've been able to seat every combo I've tried with a floor pump.

I threw some latex tubes in there and called it a day. I don't flat that much anyway. I'm not super motivated to try harder either, since my rationale was trying something new vs. fixing a problem that I don't have.
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Old 09-09-21, 08:14 AM
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Having said that I do think Mavic UST should work well, I just found a better deal on the Bonty wheels and liked the idea of more tire options, although (much) more so on road, it definitely matters which tire/tube combination you select for tubeless. Which is lame, especially since one often has to learn that empirically.
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Old 09-09-21, 08:27 AM
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Yeah, I got myself a pair of Mavic SLR 45s to use as everyday wheels, I think Mavic really nailed it with their UST standard, wish more tire manufacturers would go with it. GP5000 TLs, tight as they are, went on with only a moderate amount of effort and sealed with a helping of sealant without issue and due to smartly designed valve and no rim / tubeless tape lose very little pressure over the span of a week.

​​​​​Tempted to try one of the road tires next which are made to Mavic UST standard.
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Old 09-09-21, 08:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Branko D View Post
I think Mavic really nailed it with their UST standard, wish more tire manufacturers would go with it.
I haven't looked recently, but the last I'd heard was that the (at the time) unannounced ETRTO tubeless standard had been mostly finalized and that it was largely based upon rUST specs. What I've seen, here and there on the web, is that many of the latest generation tires (like the Schwalbe Pro One Evo Addix) are being manufactured to these specs.

I'll say this: tubeless has gotten way easier in the last 5 years. The caveat is that this is based upon personal experience, so I don't know how much of it is me being less stupid and how much is actual improvement in tolerances, etc.
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Old 09-09-21, 08:59 AM
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Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
I haven't looked recently, but the last I'd heard was that the (at the time) unannounced ETRTO tubeless standard had been mostly finalized and that it was largely based upon rUST specs. What I've seen, here and there on the web, is that many of the latest generation tires (like the Schwalbe Pro One Evo Addix) are being manufactured to these specs.

I'll say this: tubeless has gotten way easier in the last 5 years. The caveat is that this is based upon personal experience, so I don't know how much of it is me being less stupid and how much is actual improvement in tolerances, etc.
Interesting though that for hookless TL, Mavic's Yksion UST are not approved by Enve, and Mavic doesn't appear on Zipp's list either, as a compatible manufacturer of TL for hookless. Is the rUST standard expected to be somewhat adjusted from existing/current?
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Old 09-09-21, 10:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Sy Reene View Post
Interesting though that for hookless TL, Mavic's Yksion UST are not approved by Enve, and Mavic doesn't appear on Zipp's list either, as a compatible manufacturer of TL for hookless. Is the rUST standard expected to be somewhat adjusted from existing/current?
Hookless compatibility lists aren't comprehensive and they're not really a wheel that you just stumble into buying; if you buy in to hookless, you know that you're going to have some limitations and you know that going in. When I was researching tire compatibility with the 303S, I saw enough variety available that I wasn't concerned.

As far as how tubeless ETRTO vs rUST moving forward, I couldn't tell you. It was rumored that the former was heavily based on the latter, but how they might differ remains to be seen (unless, again, the ETRTO standard has been published since I last looked).
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Old 09-09-21, 10:21 AM
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Originally Posted by aclinjury View Post
Road tubeless sucks if:
1) you aren't using at least a 32c tire, or
2) Stans sealant

And who the hell wants to use any tire bigger than 25c, unless they're just.... tourists.

Meanwhile, fast group A guys are on clinchers with thin butyle tubes or latex tubes. Do you want to go fast or go like a tourist? If tourist, then yeah, stick to road tubeless bs.
Well that makes me a tourist then I guess.
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Old 09-09-21, 11:17 AM
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Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
Hookless compatibility lists aren't comprehensive and they're not really a wheel that you just stumble into buying; if you buy in to hookless, you know that you're going to have some limitations and you know that going in. When I was researching tire compatibility with the 303S, I saw enough variety available that I wasn't concerned.

As far as how tubeless ETRTO vs rUST moving forward, I couldn't tell you. It was rumored that the former was heavily based on the latter, but how they might differ remains to be seen (unless, again, the ETRTO standard has been published since I last looked).
Yeah, I was just wondering if a day is coming where the other tire manufacturers (other than Mavic) who currently have TL tires that work for hookless, once they adopt a UST-ish tire profile standard, would find their tires no longer as compatible? meaning we'd start perhaps seeing 2 lines of tires req'd -- those for hookless and those for hooked?

Seems odd to go with a UST=based standard, as there's only one tire maker actually selling them, even knowing that supposedly Michelin and Hutchinson were also part of the triumvirate backing UST when it was launched.
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Old 09-09-21, 11:28 AM
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Originally Posted by aclinjury View Post
Road tubeless sucks if:
1) you aren't using at least a 32c tire, or
2) Stans sealant

And who the hell wants to use any tire bigger than 25c, unless they're just.... tourists.

Meanwhile, fast group A guys are on clinchers with thin butyle tubes or latex tubes. Do you want to go fast or go like a tourist? If tourist, then yeah, stick to road tubeless bs.
What do you mean by .....tourist ?

Do you mean a guy who rides alot and likes to be comfortable? I guess I am a tourist. Am I no longer a tourist when I jump on my bike that has 23's ? Does it stay with the tire or once your on a endurance bike with 32's are you a tourist forever ? Are MTBers tourists ?

What the eff is a "fast group A guy" besides someone who looks down on larger tires.
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Old 09-09-21, 11:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Sy Reene View Post
Yeah, I was just wondering if a day is coming where the other tire manufacturers (other than Mavic) who currently have TL tires that work for hookless, once they adopt a UST-ish tire profile standard, would find their tires no longer as compatible? meaning we'd start perhaps seeing 2 lines of tires req'd -- those for hookless and those for hooked?

Seems odd to go with a UST=based standard, as there's only one tire maker actually selling them, even knowing that supposedly Michelin and Hutchinson were also part of the triumvirate backing UST when it was launched.
They're not mutually exclusive, for whatever reason, and I've never been interested enough in Mavic tires to check reasons for in/compatibility. Regardless, the Schwalbe POEA is supposedly built to the proposed ETRTO standard and is approved for hookless use. There were a few other examples that I came across (probably the PZero, maybe the Power Roads, etc) but I'd have to do some digging to be certain. So no, compliance with the proposed standard does not imply incompatibility with hookless.
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Old 09-09-21, 11:48 AM
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Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
They're not mutually exclusive, for whatever reason, and I've never been interested enough in Mavic tires to check reasons for in/compatibility. Regardless, the Schwalbe POEA is supposedly built to the proposed ETRTO standard and is approved for hookless use. There were a few other examples that I came across (probably the PZero, maybe the Power Roads, etc) but I'd have to do some digging to be certain. So no, compliance with the proposed standard does not imply incompatibility with hookless.
Interesting you say Pirelli.. for one hookless wheel maker anyway (Cadex) they're all on the no-fly list. The Cinturatos are on the Enve list of no-go and none of their other models are on the approved list (ie the PZeros aren't listed anywhere) Mind you, I don't know how much hookless rim profiles differ between brands -- by nature you'd think there'd be less variety since there is by default no hook. Definitely a still-evolving story.

Schwalbe OTOH, seems to be one (if not the only?) brand, that seems is not a problem with anyone's rims (hooked or hookless). Hopefully they had a lot of input into the new standard.
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Old 09-09-21, 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Sy Reene View Post
Interesting you say Pirelli.. for one hookless wheel maker anyway (Cadex) they're all on the no-fly list. The Cinturatos are on the Enve list of no-go and none of their other models are on the approved list (ie the PZeros aren't listed anywhere) Mind you, I don't know how much hookless rim profiles differ between brands -- by nature you'd think there'd be less variety since there is by default no hook. Definitely a still-evolving story.
Re: Pirelli - yeah, again, these lists aren't comprehensive and they're a relatively new tire. Here's what's on the back of my PZero box, though, for reference. Note the hookless disclaimer for 26mm and smaller, and then the note on 28mm and larger.

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Old 09-09-21, 03:03 PM
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Originally Posted by TMonk View Post
There needs to be a universal standard for road tubeless given the tighter tolerances that are required vs MTB. I've done tubeless MTB for a long time.

Recently purchased some Bonty Aeolus TLR 3's to use as my everyday road wheel and thought what the heck, I'll try tubeless. A teammate/buddy came over and we tried to mount two separate 25c tires (Pro One - new version and IRC X-guard) and neither would seat. I tried soap on the bead and stuff too and we couldn't get it to seat even with CO2. His advice was try a different tire as it might be a bad combo. On MTB, I've been able to seat every combo I've tried with a floor pump.

I threw some latex tubes in there and called it a day. I don't flat that much anyway. I'm not super motivated to try harder either, since my rationale was trying something new vs. fixing a problem that I don't have.

The Pirelli TLR's will mount with a regular pump on the Aeolus wheels. I have the Pro 37 and Pro 3V's and have never had an issue getting the Pirelli's or Bonty R3's to mount with just a hand pump on those wheels.
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Old 09-09-21, 03:26 PM
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Originally Posted by jaxgtr View Post
The Pirelli TLR's will mount with a regular pump.
That was not my experience mounting 26mm P-Zeros Race TLRs on Enve 3.4s. One I was able to get seated with a CO2 cartridge. After wasting 2 more CO2 cartridges on the second tire, I went to the LBS for compressor assistance.
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Old 09-09-21, 03:33 PM
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A tubeless pump with a canister is a big help, really glad I got one.
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Old 09-09-21, 03:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Redbullet View Post
Just to clarify some questions:

The tubeless in discussion is 23 mm (measures 24 inflated), rated at 87 Ė 130 psi and I rode it at around 85 (+/-). I canít go 28-32 mm, as the frame has no clearance, my rims are narrow Ė accept max 25 and I donít like a bulky road wheel. Will ANY of the sealants work at 130 psi, as rated on the tire? Or is it misleading and I should not exceed 70 psi?
I tried a second sealant recommended by a large bike shop and it had the same behavior.
Schwalbe is a larger provider (bike tires, for example). Their kit for switching to road tubeless worked fine (rim tape, valves, sealant, a special solution for seating the tubes, tire booster Ė all rated for road tubeless). But didnít work for sealing the hole. Neither the other sealant.

Just think about car tires: you donít need any research to find a sealant that works, any small tire repair shop will do the job with any sealant they have. That IS a system that works. The same with tubes: any ďno nameĒ patch on the market will do the job - that is another system that works. But If I have to make research and expensive experiments in order to find which of the many brand sealants on the market can make the job of sealing a small hole (maybe only muc-off can make the job, from so many brand alternatives on the market?), then the system is not reliable.
And, please, donít shoot me. It is only about my opinion, which was built up on my true experience. There is no issue if your opinion is different.
It is true that you need to do a bit of research on tubeless tyres to find out what works and what doesnít. Corsa Speeds were quick to go on my black list. Way too fragile for my needs. As for sealants, Orange Seal gets consistently good reviews, while Stanís (spellchecker changed this to Satanís!) doesnít. Iíve had good results with Muc-off sealant on both road and mtb.
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Old 09-09-21, 03:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Eric F View Post
That was not my experience mounting 26mm P-Zeros Race TLRs on Enve 3.4s. One I was able to get seated with a CO2 cartridge. After wasting 2 more CO2 cartridges on the second tire, I went to the LBS for compressor assistance.
Sorry, yea, I was specifically referencing the Aeolus wheels that TMonk had mentioned and the Pirelli's. Updated my post to make that distinction.
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Old 09-09-21, 04:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Branko D View Post
A tubeless pump with a canister is a big help, really glad I got one.
After my most recent experience, this will be one of my next purchases. New gadget day!!
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Old 09-09-21, 05:04 PM
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jaxgtr thanks for the recommendation, when I wear through my current tires on the Bonty's, I may try Pirelli's or Bontrager R3 TLR tires if I find them on sale. It is annoying that you have to pay so much attention to specific combinations and empirical/anecdotal evidence.

The wider and lower (in pressure) you go, the more it makes sense, and the easier it should be to configure. For my road bikes, I don't see a need to deviate from 25c and 90-100 PSI, where the benefits from tubeless are diminishing. Unless you live in goathead country, of course. But I don't.
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