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Myths of the road tubeless (or Go back to clinchers)

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Myths of the road tubeless (or Go back to clinchers)

Old 09-09-21, 05:17 PM
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Eric F
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Originally Posted by TMonk View Post
The wider and lower (in pressure) you go, the more it makes sense, and the easier it should be to configure. For my road bikes, I don't see a need to deviate from 25c and 90-100 PSI, where the benefits from tubeless are diminishing. Unless you live in goathead country, of course. But I don't.
I've been running my 25c Conti 5Ks at 80/85, and they definitely feel better than the 105-110psi 23s on my old Colnago (I weigh 185).
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Old 09-09-21, 05:19 PM
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Originally Posted by TMonk View Post
jaxgtr thanks for the recommendation, when I wear through my current tires on the Bonty's, I may try Pirelli's or Bontrager R3 TLR tires if I find them on sale. It is annoying that you have to pay so much attention to specific combinations and empirical/anecdotal evidence.

The wider and lower (in pressure) you go, the more it makes sense, and the easier it should be to configure. For my road bikes, I don't see a need to deviate from 25c and 90-100 PSI, where the benefits from tubeless are diminishing. Unless you live in goathead country, of course. But I don't.
No problem. I recently ordered the Aeolus Pro 5's for my rim brake Emonda and will be running the 28mm P Zero Race TLR's I just pulled off my Domane on them. Although, I have thoughts of getting the 26's when those wear out.
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Old 09-09-21, 05:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Eric F View Post
I've been running my 25c Conti 5Ks at 80/85, and they definitely feel better than the 105-110psi 23s on my old Colnago (I weigh 185).
Ya, there is an element of that too, like maybe I don't know what I'm missing? My daily average body weight is 145-150 (depending on time of year) and run around 90 most of the time, unless I'm on a real smooth course. 90 PSI on latex tubes feels pretty good and is what I do most of the time. I'd probably try 80 if I did tubeless road.

EDIT: I forgot to mention - the Bonty TLR R3's were my first choice, I figured the same MFG should have an amenable tire/rim combo. But they were b/o till November like many things so I relied on what I could scrounge from buddies that were lying around. I wouldn't hesitate to try the R3 since I have ridden it tubed/non-TLR before and found them quite nice.
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Old 09-09-21, 05:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Eric F View Post
After my most recent experience, this will be one of my next purchases. New gadget day!!
Yeah they definitely make tubeless setup a breeze. I have the Topeak Joe Blow Booster. Itís been a good piece of kit.
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Old 09-09-21, 08:06 PM
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Originally Posted by TMonk View Post
Ya, there is an element of that too, like maybe I don't know what I'm missing? My daily average body weight is 145-150 (depending on time of year) and run around 90 most of the time, unless I'm on a real smooth course. 90 PSI on latex tubes feels pretty good and is what I do most of the time. I'd probably try 80 if I did tubeless road.

EDIT: I forgot to mention - the Bonty TLR R3's were my first choice, I figured the same MFG should have an amenable tire/rim combo. But they were b/o till November like many things so I relied on what I could scrounge from buddies that were lying around. I wouldn't hesitate to try the R3 since I have ridden it tubed/non-TLR before and found them quite nice.
you're in SD, roads are nice. Why do you even bother mucking with tubeless??
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Old 09-09-21, 08:49 PM
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aclinjury well, as I specified in my previous posts, I don't! I thought I'd try it for funsies and ended up with a tire/rim combination that didn't work out, so I'm back on tubes.
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Old 09-09-21, 10:13 PM
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Originally Posted by aclinjury View Post
Why do you even bother mucking with tubeless??
"Muck around and find out", isn't that the motto these days?
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Old 09-10-21, 07:57 AM
  #58  
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Originally Posted by TMonk View Post
aclinjury well, as I specified in my previous posts, I don't! I thought I'd try it for funsies and ended up with a tire/rim combination that didn't work out, so I'm back on tubes.
ah gotcha. You're not alone in the "tire/rim combination not working". It's a crapshot at best. But hey you're in SD, flats are a once a year event.
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Old 09-10-21, 08:07 AM
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Originally Posted by ThermionicScott View Post
"Muck around and find out", isn't that the motto these days?
you got it. Probably 20-30% of the entire bicycle industry revenue is from people mucking around and experimenting... then finding either things didn't work out and they end up selling on ebay or craigslist or facebook market, or out right binning those items out of pure frustration.
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Old 09-10-21, 08:17 AM
  #60  
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Originally Posted by aclinjury View Post
ah gotcha. You're not alone in the "tire/rim combination not working". It's a crapshot at best.
I hear/see this quite often, but I've never run in to it. I mean, I've run in to some tough combos that made me frustrated and sweaty... but that was early in my tubeless career, and revisiting those same hellacious combos proved them to be quite manageable with the right technique. It makes me assume that, like many problems, it's being overreported and/or that the user's skillset isn't terribly refined.

This isn't to say that I don't believe that there are some really tough combos out there, even for the experienced, I just don't believe it's as common as the interwebs echo chamber would have you believe; a tempest in a teapot, if you will.
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Old 09-10-21, 08:45 AM
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Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post

This isn't to say that I don't believe that there are some really tough combos out there, even for the experienced, I just ( don't believe it's as common as the interwebs echo chamber would have you believe; a tempest in a teapot, if you will.
To some degree, this is likely. At the same time, there are known (if you happened to research) issues with some brands. Conti, which has to probably be the most ubiquitous brand out there being sold online and at the LBS, seems to be a problem child -- even acknowledged by wheel manufacturers. If/when I were to go TL, they would have to be at the bottom of my list for consideration if buying today.
Eg. https://boydcycling.com/blogs/news/a...p5000-tl-tires or looking at this 'difficulty' rating charts of LightBicycle's (at least for their 25mms): https://www.lightbicycle.com/newslet...th-Charts.html

and for hookless: However, as with Zipp, the Continental GP500 TL and Vittoria Corsa are not on Giant's approved list.
https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/p...ed-them-468466
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Old 09-10-21, 08:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Sy Reene View Post
To some degree, this is likely. At the same time, there are known (if you happened to research) issues with some brands. Conti, which has to probably be the most ubiquitous brand out there being sold online and at the LBS, seems to be a problem child -- even acknowledged by wheel manufacturers. If/when I were to go TL, they would have to be at the bottom of my list for consideration if buying today.
Eg. https://boydcycling.com/blogs/news/a...p5000-tl-tires or looking at this 'difficulty' rating charts of LightBicycle's (at least for their 25mms): https://www.lightbicycle.com/newslet...th-Charts.html

and for hookless: However, as with Zipp, the Continental GP500 TL and Vittoria Corsa are not on Giant's approved list.
https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/p...ed-them-468466
Yup. They do have a reputation and I've never understood the Conti adoration (they're fine, but don't walk roll on water), so "missing out" on them was never a concern when I bought the Zipps.
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Old 09-10-21, 08:54 AM
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Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
Yup. They do have a reputation ...
That said, one of the guys in my club, who was a total tubeless noob at the time, had absolutely no problem mounting and seating his 5k TLs.
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Old 09-10-21, 08:55 AM
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Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
I hear/see this quite often, but I've never run in to it. I mean, I've run in to some tough combos that made me frustrated and sweaty... but that was early in my tubeless career, and revisiting those same hellacious combos proved them to be quite manageable with the right technique. It makes me assume that, like many problems, it's being overreported and/or that the user's skillset isn't terribly refined.will.
FWIW the worst combinations I have come across used Panaracer & Compass tires. Which isn't surprising since they both come from the same molds. Some of the best combinations involved Conti GP5000.

Both on Velocity or ENVE rims since that is all I own...So I don't think the varible in getting a tire seated is as much rim as it is design variables of the tire bead. The good performing Conti's had a flange inboard of the bead cord that looked specially designed to catch the inflation air for a tight seal against the rim shelf. The difficult Panaracer/Compass tires had no such feature. In back-to-back A/B tests, it doesn't take much imagination to see the air-catching flange of the Conti's works as intended.

I recently bought some Valve stems/cores for a tubeless set up. On my bench I also had a few OEM stems/cores kickin' around from etiher Giant or Special-ed. Long story short: I mixed/matched them up & after much frustration, it was discovered that the OEM stem/cores had a much larger bore than the off-the-shelf model to allow much greater air flow. Even if the valve itself was the same. The larger bore stems made all the difference in the world.

I guess the moral of the story for anyone reading this is: Even if the rims are held as a constant, some tires & some valve stems are better than others. Valve stem choice may indeed be one confounding factor.

Last edited by base2; 09-10-21 at 09:15 AM.
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Old 09-10-21, 09:29 AM
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Originally Posted by base2 View Post
FWIW the worst combinations I have come across used Panaracer & Compass tires. Which isn't surprising since they both come from the same molds. Some of the best combinations involved Conti GP5000.

Both on Velocity or ENVE rims since that is all I own...So I don't think the varible in getting a tire seated is as much rim as it is design variables of the tire bead. The good performing Conti's had a flange inboard of the bead cord that looked specially designed to catch the inflation air for a tight seal against the rim shelf. The difficult Panaracer/Compass tires had no such feature. In back-to-back A/B tests, it doesn't take much imagination to see the air-catching flange of the Conti's works as intended.

I recently bought some Valve stems/cores for a tubeless set up. On my bench I also had a few OEM stems/cores kickin' around from etiher Giant or Special-ed. Long story short: I mixed/matched them up & after much frustration, it was discovered that the OEM stem/cores had a much larger bore than the off-the-shelf model to allow much greater air flow. Even if the valve itself was the same. The larger bore stems made all the difference in the world.

I guess the moral of the story for anyone reading this is: Even if the rims are held as a constant, some tires & some valve stems are better than others. Valve stem choice may indeed be one confounding factor.
Yeah, so there's the matter of mounting difficulty and then there's seating the beads. I was referring primarily to mounting. In terms of seating the beads, I haven't really had that variation and/or difficulty in ages, so it's just not something that's on my radar. That said, my current Michelin Power Roads seem to go on more easily with just a floor pump than they will with my Specialized canister (which isn't a great product, BTW).

In terms of stems... those were a frustration for me, but not for the air flow reason. I like to use the syringe-type sealant injectors/removers and, yeah, many stems have bore restrictions that keep the tube from passing all of the way through. Muc-Off has some aluminum stems that seem to be readily available, though, and they're large/smooth bore, so that's what I've been using the last couple years.
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Old 09-10-21, 09:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Eric F View Post
I've been running my 25c Conti 5Ks at 80/85, and they definitely feel better than the 105-110psi 23s on my old Colnago (I weigh 185).
I run 80/85 in my 25c Schwalbe Pro 1 TLE tires and I weigh 200#.
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Old 09-10-21, 09:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Eric F View Post
I've been running my 25c Conti 5Ks at 80/85, and they definitely feel better than the 105-110psi 23s on my old Colnago (I weigh 185).
Same set up and weight here!

I've got 28c S Works Turbo's on a pair of Zipp 303s and run those at 60/65. Riding those on the Roubaix makes cracks in the road disappear.
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Old 09-13-21, 11:54 AM
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I donít see the point of tubeless tires but Iím old.
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Old 09-13-21, 01:09 PM
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I had tubeless for a year. Same kind of experiences. I put clinchers back on. I HATE wheels that were designed for tubeless. With great passion. I just swaped my fairly new wheels, built for tubeless, with a much older pair I have. I commute often. I cannot afford to ahve a flat make me miss a class I'm supposed to teach, if I get a flat with tubes, I can change it and still be on time. If I have a problem with tubeless (and I did, several times, getting holes that did NOT seal), I'm screwed.
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Old 09-13-21, 01:11 PM
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Originally Posted by TMonk View Post
Having said that I do think Mavic UST should work well, I just found a better deal on the Bonty wheels and liked the idea of more tire options, although (much) more so on road, it definitely matters which tire/tube combination you select for tubeless. Which is lame, especially since one often has to learn that empirically.
I have a set of Mavic UST. I HATE them with a passion. I would like to melt them down and make cheap costume jewlry out of them.
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Old 09-14-21, 03:08 AM
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Originally Posted by dkatz1 View Post
I had tubeless for a year. Same kind of experiences. I put clinchers back on. I HATE wheels that were designed for tubeless. With great passion. I just swaped my fairly new wheels, built for tubeless, with a much older pair I have. I commute often. I cannot afford to ahve a flat make me miss a class I'm supposed to teach, if I get a flat with tubes, I can change it and still be on time. If I have a problem with tubeless (and I did, several times, getting holes that did NOT seal), I'm screwed.
Airliners. Basically run flat for bikes. You don't even have to stop unless your commute is 50km away 🤷

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Old 09-16-21, 08:36 PM
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Redbullet, I have the same exact issue with the Vittoria Corsa Speed 2.0 25c tires. I have FIVE useless tires because they have what look like pinhole punctures but the sealant will not seal them. A couple weeks ago I went back to my Rubino Pro Speed 25c tires with Vittoria latex tubes and what a breath of fresh air! With the tubes I can pump up my tires to my preferred pressure of 95 psi (the Corsa Speed tubeless tires struggled to hold even 85 because so much air leaks through the tires), I got a more comfortable, supple ride and reduced my rolling resistance. The better ride and the lower rolling resistance was evident from the first pedal stroke. You may wonder why I didn't simply put tubes in the Corsa Speeds. The reason is the Corsa Speeds have almost nil puncture protection, and unless you're a TDF time trialist, you need to rely on sealant sealing the punctures, which you and I have seen doesn't work. I think the issue is with typical road usage, the higher pressure ejects the sealant thru' the puncture before the rubber in the sealant gets a chance to coagulate. I noticed a number of times sealant would squirt out of the pinhole punctures on the Corsa Speeds until the pressure reduced to a certain amount - usually 40 - 60 psi. As soon as I pumped the tire back up to 80 psi, the sealant would start squirting again thru the same hole until the pressure came down.

I also have Conti 5000 TL 28c mounted tubeless on another bike. I haven't had any punctures on them yet, so I don't know how they will compare to the Vittoria Corsa Speeds in terms of sealing. However, they hold air MUCH better than the Vittoria Corsa Speeds. The Conti's apparently have a built in lining within the carcass which helps to hold the air in as well as provides superior puncture protection. However, the ride on the Conti 5000 TLs is noticeable harsher than the Corsa Speeds. Which makes sense since the Conti's have a much heavier carcass.
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Old 09-16-21, 08:50 PM
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Originally Posted by BikeOnForever View Post
The reason is the Corsa Speeds have almost nil puncture protection, and unless you're a TDF time trialist, you need to rely on sealant sealing the punctures, which you and I have seen doesn't work. I think the issue is with typical road usage,
My experience with that tire is similar, but it is marketed as a timetrial specific tire. It is not intended for typical road usage and while for me it was an interesting experiment trying to use them as a road tire, they are just too delicate.

That said, these punctures can be repaired via patches. Any cut bigger than a pinhole and the casing bulges when you patch and inflate them, though - they are just really delicate, paperthin tires. ​​​Not representative of road tubeless in general.
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Old 09-16-21, 09:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Branko D View Post
My experience with that tire is similar, but it is marketed as a timetrial specific tire. It is not intended for typical road usage and while for me it was an interesting experiment trying to use them as a road tire, they are just too delicate... ​​​Not representative of road tubeless in general.
Yes, I thought it would be an interesting experiment too, but as you mentioned I've discovered they're just too delicate. Good to know they're not representative of road tubeless. Hopefully the Conti 5000TL 28c tires on my other bike will hold up much better.

But the Vittoria Corsa Speeds roll oh sooooo fast. It sure was good while it lasted!

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Old 09-18-21, 02:44 PM
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I got this in my tire today around 45 miles into my what was suppose to be a 65 mile ride. Obviously, I cut the ride short and headed back to the house, but I did not flat and I made it home. Once I got home, it was only then did I realize that I picked up the entire 3" 10 penny nail. I used my dynaplug and it seems to be holding, but on the safe side I am going to pull the tire and check the rim and see what the inside damage looks like on the tire. I would hate to have to replace it as it only has about 150 miles on it. Might try some crazy glue in the hole as well.


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