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Is this norm on TT bike to hit front wheel with your toes?

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Is this norm on TT bike to hit front wheel with your toes?

Old 09-20-21, 12:07 AM
  #26  
Branko D
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Toe overlap sucks when doing hairpins and the like, which should ideally be rare on a TT bike, but I prefer to have less toe overlap on a road bike.

Anyway, look at front-center (and wheelbase - chainstays, absent that); some manufacturers tend to have more toe overlap and some less. My wife has a Canyon Speedmax TT / Tri bike and it doesn't really have toe overlap.

Some people are are bothered but most aren't; if you are, look at bikes which have slightly more room in front. Off memory, Specialized tends to have smaller front-center than Canyon at the same size, Look at bike geometry sites, basically.
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Old 09-20-21, 02:56 AM
  #27  
rivers
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As most others, toe overlap is normal. Especially on smaller bikes. All three of mine have a decent amount of toe overlap because I'm 5'2", my bikes are 46-48cm in size, and with 700c wheels, toe overlap is unavoidable (there is a reason Canyon's XXXS, XXS, and XS are designed around 650b tyres). I regularly race TTs, and it's never caused an issue
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Old 09-20-21, 09:00 AM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by vane171 View Post
The classic fork is splayed forward and maybe classic frames have longer wheel base too, so you have just enough room for your toes, at least on my old bike that is the case. I also can turn almost 'on a dime' but if I had to watch for crank arms constellation, it would be a whole science.
If you have to watch then you are doing it wrong. Can't you tell where your feet are? Eyes are better kept on the road. I think I can turn on a dime too. I've never had, or at least don't recall ever being bit by toe interference. Balance and power needs when turning at slow speed for me always have the proper foot forward at the appropriate time to miss the wheel.

You shouldn't have to look when you clip back in either. If your SPD's are new, they probably do need to loosen up some. I have a issue with them when new or freshly cleaned and greased. Just need a few miles on them till some of the excess grease gets pushed out of the way.
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Old 09-20-21, 10:28 AM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by JohnDThompson View Post
That's one of the reasons why I use 165mm crank arms on my fixed gear bikes.
So do I but my track bike still overlaps back to the ball of my food. I can testify that it is possible to trap your foot on the wrong side of the wheel but only in a very low speed maneuver. It is not an issue except in a extreme situation.
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Old 09-20-21, 12:03 PM
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I have toe overlap on all my bikes, but the only one I ever rub anything is on low-speed turns w/ my cx bike. The need to pedal though those low speed turns just isn't there on the TT and road bikes and is easily avoidable. On the CX bike? Sure, but just keep pedaling.
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Old 09-21-21, 12:47 AM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by Iride01 View Post
If you have to watch then you are doing it wrong. Can't you tell where your feet are? Eyes are better kept on the road. I think I can turn on a dime too. I've never had, or at least don't recall ever being bit by toe interference. Balance and power needs when turning at slow speed for me always have the proper foot forward at the appropriate time to miss the wheel.

You shouldn't have to look when you clip back in either. If your SPD's are new, they probably do need to loosen up some. I have a issue with them when new or freshly cleaned and greased. Just need a few miles on them till some of the excess grease gets pushed out of the way.
By 'watching', I didn't mean eyes, just being consciously aware of crank position. But I do have to look at my SPDs and I hope they will loosen up in time to hang in the proper default position for insertion.

I used to ride fixie bike when I was much younger and learned to balance the bike standing still without even having the front wheel moving, that was the coolest thing about riding such bike. To some extent it carries into normal road bike with gears. On stop sign I can stay on the bike for a bit before I need to get one foot off pedal but the problem is, it makes car drivers nervous and they wait for me to go, since they see me not putting a foot down, so eventually I have to put it down because you can hold it only for so long.
On my old, I suppose vintage bike, I was never even conscious about toe overlap because there was none or else I would have noticed for sure since I do some very slow speed dawdling on that bike, like riding that very tight figure eight (that one you need to watch that your front wheel doesn't flip, throwing you over like a bronco).

That is interesting stuff about the fork geometries, I believe what you guys say up there but as I said, on my vintage bike, I am sure I don't have toe overlap, else I would know there is such a thing. Can't check it now what the clearance is since that bike if over in Europe. I think one factor might be the bike being on the bigger end frame size for me, while this TT bike is on the smaller end of the range for my body size.

Still, don't touring bikes have the front wheel axle placed more forward relative to the fork stering axis to achieve stability at the expense of easier steering? But now I think of motor bike choppers and they achieve that with very shallow fork steering axis angle... the modern racing bike frame geometry has this angle quite steep for quick steering response, agility, likely steeper angle than vintage bikes have, while the curved fork geometry was done to achieve softer ride, not to put the front wheel more forward.

Last edited by vane171; 09-21-21 at 01:01 AM.
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Old 09-21-21, 01:51 AM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by vane171 View Post
That is interesting stuff about the fork geometries, I believe what you guys say up there but as I said, on my vintage bike, I am sure I don't have toe overlap
I don't doubt it. I'm actually in a similar boat: I don't get toe overlap on either of my vintage steel road bikes, but there's a bit of it on my modern road bike. My point was simply that this doesn't have anything inherent to do with how bikes are and were made. There are old steel road bikes with short front-centers, and there are modern road bikes with long front-centers.

Actually, I'd disagree with the folks in here suggesting that your modern bike has a short front-center because it's a TT bike. A properly-fit aerobar posture generally puts the rider quite far forward over the bike, so to avoid being squirrely and having the rider feel like they're constantly "going over the front wheel", modern frame designers usually built slightly longer front-centers into their TT bikes than their road bikes.

I think one factor might be the bike being on the bigger end frame size for me, while this TT bike is on the smaller end of the range for my body size.
That could absolutely play a role. Bigger frames usually have a longer distance from the bottom bracket to the front wheel axle.

Still, don't touring bikes have the front wheel axle placed more forward relative to the fork stering axis to achieve stability at the expense of easier steering?
Hey, road touring bikes still exist, slightly. They do usually have longer front-center than performance-oriented road bikes, although I suspect the largest reason is simply extra clearance for wider tires and/or fenders.

the modern racing bike frame geometry has this angle quite steep for quick steering response, agility, likely steeper angle than vintage bikes have
Depends on how vintage is vintage. Things slacken off if you go really far back, but typical racing bikes circa 1980 have very similar steering geometries to racing bikes today.

Don't make the mistake of thinking that the long slack front-end necessarily gave the really old stuff a heavy steering response, though. Slackening the head angle increases steering trail if you don't also increase the fork offset, but they usually did, to the effect of creating a fairly low-trail steering geometry.

while the curved fork geometry was done to achieve softer ride
The curved fork was primarily done because it's what was viewed as convenient for manufacturers. Fork blades were manufactured straight, and bent to the required offset by the framebuilder. This meant that builders could build bikes with a variety of fork offsets without having to inventory lots of permutations of fork crowns or fork blades.
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Old 09-21-21, 04:41 PM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by HTupolev View Post
A properly-fit aerobar posture generally puts the rider quite far forward over the bike, so to avoid being squirrely and having the rider feel like they're constantly "going over the front wheel", modern frame designers usually built slightly longer front-centers into their TT bikes than their road bikes.
Yes on the posture over the bike, it is not comfortable (to put it very mildly) to sit upright without holding on the bars, like when you want to use both hands for whatever or just show off 'look ma, no hands'...
The bike is aggressive, it wants to go
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Old 09-22-21, 09:02 AM
  #34  
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Just putting this here… toe overlap on a 1973 Motobecane Le Champion. This was their top production bike at the time, with mostly campy record and Reynolds 531 tubes. With proper geometry a racing bike will most likely have toe overlap in normal sizes.
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Old 09-22-21, 03:12 PM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by vane171 View Post
But I do have to look at my SPDs and I hope they will loosen up in time to hang in the proper default position for insertion.
They're not going to "default" into any position. If they are loose enough to spin then they are going to be in a different position every time. Are these the mountain bike style pedals? Road pedals will hang with the heavy end down, mtb pedals will stop anywhere in their range. Speedplays are like mtb pedals.

Toe overlap is dependent on who built the frame and the geometry they are trying to create. Just because your old bike didn't have it doesn't mean other bikes of the same era didn't.

Smaller frames tend to have more overlap. This is why some extra small frames use 650b wheels.

I've never had overlap despite having owned a bike with a short wheelbase and steep angles because I ride larger frames. I also wear size 49 shoes.

Don't set your cleats to adjust for the overlap, set your cleats where they should be.
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Old 09-27-21, 11:03 PM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by big john View Post
They're not going to "default" into any position. If they are loose enough to spin then they are going to be in a different position every time. Are these the mountain bike style pedals? Road pedals will hang with the heavy end down, mtb pedals will stop anywhere in their range. Speedplays are like mtb pedals.
...
Don't set your cleats to adjust for the overlap, set your cleats where they should be.
They are Shimano PD-ES600 , one sided SPD type. I didn't read the review on this link or any for that matter. I am curious what they say over there, maybe I learn something. I bought them in covid times, my criteria were SPD so I can walk around in the shoes, second point was nice look, not one of those egg beater type, and these were what was offered around here at the time.

Edit: the review confirms exactly my experience with the pedals.
Out of the box, the sealed cartridge bearings weren't very free spinning – they were rather sticky to be precise

Their weight distribution means the pedals rest at an off-vertical angle, with the tip pointing towards the rear of the bike, showing a lot of the underside. Stamp on an ES600, as you might a double-sided mountain bike pedal, and you're most likely to pointlessly and annoyingly scrape the bottom of the pedal. Clipping into these requires a forward-motion, toe-first, flip-and-clip action to engage them, and while it soon becomes second nature, it can sometimes be an issue when a fast and certain connection is required.


Shimano has slid these pedals into its GRX gravel groupset line-up, but the single-sided toe-first aspect might get annoying if you ride terrain that requires frequent clipping in and out through technical sections.
Add to it that these are my very first clipless pedals so I am not as experienced to clip in as those guys from review.

The pedals should drop down with the rear side down when left free, so you would just ride the shoe sole over the top tip to position if for sliding and clipping in. But the pedal weight distribution is not very weighted towards its rear clip spring mechanism.

It seems to be Ok with the cleats being fully forward, on several short rides I did anyway. Not that it results in complete clearance but it is potentially less dangerous. That overlap on the 1973 Motobecane bike above looks frightening LOL. BTW I have clips like those in that picture on my old bike.

Thing is, one is supposed to suffer on this TT type of bike anyway. It pushes me into more aero position than I ever rode before. I won't be doing overlong touring rides on this bike, mostly an hour or hour and half long circuits.

Last edited by vane171; 09-27-21 at 11:43 PM.
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Old 09-28-21, 01:44 AM
  #37  
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Cleats full forward to remove the "danger" of toe overlap sounds like a horrible idea.

A TT bike isn't supposed to be a torture device.
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Old 09-28-21, 02:27 AM
  #38  
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Why exactly did you buy a TT bike? They're not exactly versatile bikes. They are meant to put you in an aero position. Do you plan on doing some TTs in the future?
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Old 10-02-21, 08:59 PM
  #39  
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No, I am in love with its frame and overall compact look. I like how its rear wheel carves into the seat post and how the fork is wide and flat, which is all aerodynamics but I can't say that I need it. I ride for pleasure and like to go fast but given that I have never raced and didn't bike very seriously in my later life, my performance is simply not there. But the bike feels good fit even now that I moved clips all the way forward. There is not that much travel in them anyway and I while I didn't explicitly check if the pedal axle is below my foot ball, it felt OK in my one hour ride today. It was on city trails, mixed with a bit of city roads. I have yet to see how it does on open roads for real riding.

I was joking when I said you are meant to suffer on TT bikes but that's what pro racers say about these bikes. It is like sports car, the more serious sports car it is, the less comfort it gives in every way.
I admit the bars are not very comfortable. They are not made for city road/trail riding since you can't really go down into those elbow rests, there is way too many bumps, people and even cars around and you hardly get up to speed for any amount of time. Can't wait to get back to EU where I ride on small and smooth roads between villages where I meet very few vehicles and roads are smooth, that is relative to this city broken roads, even trails are poor which is surprising, in the area within my reach anyway (midtown Toronto). It is mostly for people jogging or out with their dogs.
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Old 10-03-21, 01:23 PM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by vane171 View Post
I was joking when I said you are meant to suffer on TT bikes but that's what pro racers say about these bikes..
You don't suffer because of the bike, rather you suffer because a time trial requires you to ride at your limit throughout the entire race
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Old 10-03-21, 05:20 PM
  #41  
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Overlap is more likely on a road frame than current TT frames. Modern TT bikes typically have a 20-30mm longer front center than road designs. This helps keep the bike balanced fore/aft since most of us set up with the seat much closer to the crank CL.
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Old 10-04-21, 04:38 AM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by vane171 View Post
No, I am in love with its frame and overall compact look. I like how its rear wheel carves into the seat post and how the fork is wide and flat, which is all aerodynamics but I can't say that I need it. I ride for pleasure and like to go fast but given that I have never raced and didn't bike very seriously in my later life, my performance is simply not there. But the bike feels good fit even now that I moved clips all the way forward. There is not that much travel in them anyway and I while I didn't explicitly check if the pedal axle is below my foot ball, it felt OK in my one hour ride today. It was on city trails, mixed with a bit of city roads. I have yet to see how it does on open roads for real riding.

I was joking when I said you are meant to suffer on TT bikes but that's what pro racers say about these bikes. It is like sports car, the more serious sports car it is, the less comfort it gives in every way.
I admit the bars are not very comfortable. They are not made for city road/trail riding since you can't really go down into those elbow rests, there is way too many bumps, people and even cars around and you hardly get up to speed for any amount of time. Can't wait to get back to EU where I ride on small and smooth roads between villages where I meet very few vehicles and roads are smooth, that is relative to this city broken roads, even trails are poor which is surprising, in the area within my reach anyway (midtown Toronto). It is mostly for people jogging or out with their dogs.
Perhaps an aero road bike would have been more suitable than a TT bike for your needs.
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Old 10-04-21, 10:39 AM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by alcjphil View Post
You don't suffer because of the bike, rather you suffer because a time trial requires you to ride at your limit throughout the entire race
It's tough to argue that a race ready TT position for a 25mi distance or shorter will be setup equally as comfortable as a long course triathlon setup where one must also run afterwards.

Not painful, obviously, but it is not as pleasant an experience as how triathletes set the bikes up to go 112mi comfortably. For 112mi you probably should be able to almost doze off riding the thing it is so comfortable. Riders willing to endure the unpleasant bike fit of a good TT setup in training hours and the races are rewarded with lower CdA's and faster times. Those who can't, they relax their fits accordingly until they can endure it in training or the event. And suffer the CdA penalty of that.

A TT bike is not a comfort cruiser.
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Old 10-06-21, 11:58 PM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by rivers View Post
Perhaps an aero road bike would have been more suitable than a TT bike for your needs.
Well, yes, it did cross my mind. I even looked into putting road bars on it but decided against it. Later if I find I don't ride the bike much, I could probably sell it without a problem in EU where I ride bike to some budding young TT wannabe and likely break even, maybe even make something.
But that's what was available at the time and I fell in love with the looks of the bike and while it is used, it is almost mint condition for ten year old. And the price was right also.

Now when I rode it few times, it is clear I didn't buy some lemon. That needs some luck in most purchases and I believe now I had it. The bike can't have too many miles on it, all original parts from manufacturer.

BTW I found it takes some skill or would you call it discipline, to keep straight line when down in armrests. It is easy to relax and start weaving.
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Old 10-07-21, 09:31 AM
  #45  
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Drop bars wouldn't make a proper geometry TT bike a road bike. It still wouldn't have a road bike geometry.
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Old 10-07-21, 09:09 PM
  #46  
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Originally Posted by vane171 View Post
Well, yes, it did cross my mind. I even looked into putting road bars on it but decided against it. Later if I find I don't ride the bike much, I could probably sell it without a problem in EU where I ride bike to some budding young TT wannabe and likely break even, maybe even make something.
But that's what was available at the time and I fell in love with the looks of the bike and while it is used, it is almost mint condition for ten year old. And the price was right also.

Now when I rode it few times, it is clear I didn't buy some lemon. That needs some luck in most purchases and I believe now I had it. The bike can't have too many miles on it, all original parts from manufacturer.

BTW I found it takes some skill or would you call it discipline, to keep straight line when down in armrests. It is easy to relax and start weaving.
The whole idea is to be relaxed.
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Old 10-25-21, 02:47 PM
  #47  
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I get toe overlap on both my XL endurance bike and. XL gravel bike. Thanks size 50 feet!

Its worse just now with mudguards on, and my cleats are also far back based on bike fit advice. But it sucks - mainly occurs when pulling off from uphill road junctions and right manuveuring.
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