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The death of rim brakes, disc brakes now unanimous in the pro peloton...

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The death of rim brakes, disc brakes now unanimous in the pro peloton...

Old 09-22-21, 03:31 AM
  #76  
PeteHski
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Originally Posted by Dave Mayer View Post
Of course the pros didn't want discs. Chris Froome is one of the few riders with enough recognition and money in the bank to be able to state the obvious.


As other posters have indicated, it is not just the insurmountable disadvantage of couple of extra pounds of ballast (at the worst place on the bike: the wheels), but it is the glacial race-ending wheel changes, and the constant rub-rub-rub and squeal. What I don't think has been mentioned is the extra bulking up of the frame and fork required by discs, leading to more weight and a less compliant, less comfortable fork. With rim brakes, much of the braking forces gets transferred through the rim into the fork crown, which is already very strong. With discs, all of the braking forces end at the hub, and then through the fork, which has to be reinforced.


Another consideration is the peloton pile-up potential with discs. I'm sure every rider individually wants the most powerful brakes possible (up to the adhesion limit between the tires and the road), but do you really want the guys you'll be drafting for 3,000 miles to have instantaneous skid-inducing braking? And pros weigh 140 pounds and know how to descend and to corner. Does a pro need the hardware of weekend warrior who is carrying 100 pounds extra?


The pros are paid to use what the sponsors drop on them, and praise it no matter what. Even if it is a blatant equipment deficiency, it always becomes rider failure. Pros are essentially paid to sell stuff, which is banks, lotteries, etc, and bike stuff. The target audience of the bike biz is a dentist with a gold card, who grew up mountain biking. Hence road bikes have sloping top tubes, thru-axles and discs. Give the consumer what he wants.


I will admit that road discs have been a boon to the industry. It renders 'obsolete' everything on a bike including all legacy frames and wheels. Complete reset. Further, it sends your average dentist with a gold card to their shop at least couple times per year. Whereas replacing worn rim brake pads is trivial for even someone with limited mechanical skills, disc brake setup, particularly hydraulics is a bridge too far for most home mechanics.
Let's massively overstate all the potential issues shall we? Modern bikes must be your worst nightmare, along with Dentists, LOL!

Last edited by PeteHski; 09-22-21 at 03:34 AM.
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Old 09-22-21, 03:47 AM
  #77  
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Shimano have recently released a couple of new groupsets which amongst other improvements, increase the pad spacing, in case you've missed it.

Anyway, even as they are now, they work bloody well, which is why they sell like hotcakes and I don't personally know a single guy who got a disc brake road bike and said they are going back to rim brakes. The pros have to ride discs because that's what the ordinary consumers are actually buying to the extent rim brake frames aren't worth manufacturing financially and are being discontinued. You can always find a guy who doesn't like it.

However, many riders have tried for themselves by this point, and they are buying disc brake bikes. That's just the reality of it. The bike manufacturers are trying to make money, and trying to sell rim brakes in 2021 isn't going to make you much.
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Old 09-22-21, 06:16 AM
  #78  
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Originally Posted by Branko D View Post
Personal experience with Avid BB7 and TRP Spyre says otherwise. Their big downside is that you have to adjust pad spacing as they wear while it happens automatically on hydraulics. They feel more mechanical, how to put it, than hydraulic disc brakes, but there's nothing wrong with them.
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A perusal thru REI inventory, entry level seems is stuff like Shimano MT201 or Tektro Mira C400
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Old 09-22-21, 06:36 AM
  #79  
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Originally Posted by PeteHski View Post
Let's massively overstate all the potential issues shall we? Modern bikes must be your worst nightmare, along with Dentists, LOL!
You must be new here! Let us introduce you to Dave Mayer!
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Old 09-22-21, 07:42 AM
  #80  
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Do Cervelos come with both rim and disc availability? If so, then the dentist market is served.
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Old 09-22-21, 07:52 AM
  #81  
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Originally Posted by seypat View Post
Do Cervelos come with both rim and disc availability? If so, then the dentist market is served.
You know, I don't think that they do, anymore. You could get some of the rim brake R-series bikes a year or so ago, but I don't think that they're being made anymore. Surprisingly, their TT bike look to be disc-only now, too.
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Old 09-22-21, 07:53 AM
  #82  
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Originally Posted by Sy Reene View Post
A perusal thru REI inventory, entry level seems is stuff like Shimano MT201 or Tektro Mira C400
Even BB7's are terrible. People who like them don't use them in the rain or remove their wheels. They're fine if you don't ever do either of those two things.
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Old 09-22-21, 08:13 AM
  #83  
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Remember when we had multi-page threads Proving---not suggesting, but proving---that if the peloton went disc, all the riders would be limbless by the end of the season because the red-hot spinning discs would lop off limbs in every pile-up.

And that is exactly what we have seen .... isn't it?

Also ... yeah, pros ride what they are paid to ride, but if a team could win a Grand Tour using rim brakes---if rim brakes were such a huge advantage---tell me, you think a sponsor would rather market The bike that XXX used to win the Tour" or a disc-brake bike ridden by losers? If Trek or Willier or somebody Really believed that rim brakes were a competitive advantage .......

From personal experience, people who ride discs like discs. Simple as that. Are there folks who think downtube friction shifters and quill stems on gas-pipe steel frames are better? Sure are. Are there a lot of them? I have only met them here and only about a dozen ... and is a self-selected society where the majority of the members show deep dysfunction .....

In any case .... I have one bike with hydro discs, one with mech discs, and a handful with rim brakes. I have no fear that I will not be able to keep my rim-brake bikes on the road. As (I think) Atlas_Shrugged or someone mentioned, you can still by brake pads for a Model T Ford. If a company can make a few bucks cranking out rubber pads, some company will. As for the rest of the gear, I have never worn out a caliper. We shall see.

Right now it is easier to get brake shoes for a 1985 Raleigh than 6800 brifters for a 2015 Workswell. That's life.

All this Sturm und Drang .... is mostly people who need some fiber in their diets .... or as the TV version put it ... "a Real job." (
)
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Old 09-22-21, 09:16 AM
  #84  
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Originally Posted by PeteHski View Post
Did anyone else notice that Froomey isn't using Shimano disc rotors on this setup and all his issues appear to revolve around the discs rubbing, squealing and warping? Now it could be simply because he is working these brakes to the absolute limit for extended periods of time, way beyond the average user. Or it could be because these after-market discs don't play nicely with the Shimano calipers. But these are not issues I have with my Shimano 105 disc brakes. Maybe he should try stock 105s? LOL.
Also no one ever considers rubbing might originate in frame and hub flex.
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Old 09-22-21, 09:38 AM
  #85  
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Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post
From personal experience, people who ride discs like discs. Simple as that.
Everyone that claims that they like disc brakes is a shill for big bike. Simple as that.
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Old 09-22-21, 09:40 AM
  #86  
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Originally Posted by prj71 View Post
I guess the bottom line is...Whether you like it or not...just like mountain bikes...rim brakes are slowly being phased out on road bikes. It won't be long before you won't be able to buy a road bike with rim brakes.

Want a road bike from Trek with rim brakes? They have exactly two that they will sell you.

https://www.trekbikes.com/us/en_US/b...ort=price-asc#

And they even have a 15 lb bike with disc brakes!!!
So, it's a $180 premium for the AL 2 with disks. And the other rim brake bike is the $4,000 "Speed Concept" aero bike.

Looks like C&V for me.
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Old 09-22-21, 10:02 AM
  #87  
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Originally Posted by Chinghis View Post
So, it's a $180 premium for the AL 2 with disks.
That $180 also includes an upgrade to a carbon fork and thru axles
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Old 09-22-21, 10:47 AM
  #88  
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Originally Posted by prj71 View Post
That $180 also includes an upgrade to a carbon fork and thru axles
So even with a carbon fork it weighs another pound-and-a-half? So much for your offsetting weight theory.

By the way, thru axles aren't an upgrade unless you are running disk brakes. They are totally unnecessary with rim brakes.
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Old 09-22-21, 10:48 AM
  #89  
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Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post
As (I think) Atlas_Shrugged or someone mentioned, you can still by brake pads for a Model T Ford. If a company can make a few bucks cranking out rubber pads, some company will. As for the rest of the gear, I have never worn out a caliper. We shall see.
Model T's did not have brakes as we know them. They had a band in the transmission to stop the drive shaft. If that wore out you could use reverse.
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Old 09-22-21, 10:48 AM
  #90  
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Perhaps I am slow to understand but that would not be a first for me. Pro riders are forced to ride discs even though they don't provide a competitive advantage for the rider and it's a conspiracy by Big Bike. Why are tubulars still popular and a majority on the Pro Tour? Is there some big push from Big Bike to get us to switch back to tubs once this Tubeless scam is over?
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Old 09-22-21, 11:04 AM
  #91  
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Originally Posted by popeye View Post
Model T's did not have brakes as we know them. They had a band in the transmission to stop the drive shaft. If that wore out you could use reverse.
https://www.modeltford.com/model-t-p...d-parts/bands/
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Old 09-22-21, 11:28 AM
  #92  
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Originally Posted by Atlas Shrugged View Post
I found the kevlar bands but I did not see any CF.
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Old 09-22-21, 11:51 AM
  #93  
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Originally Posted by Atlas Shrugged View Post
Perhaps I am slow to understand but that would not be a first for me. Pro riders are forced to ride discs even though they don't provide a competitive advantage for the rider and it's a conspiracy by Big Bike. Why are tubulars still popular and a majority on the Pro Tour? Is there some big push from Big Bike to get us to switch back to tubs once this Tubeless scam is over?
Joe Savon watching the TdF on the Telly canít tell if Tadej Pogacar is winning on tubeless, tubular, clincher or solid tires. But if heís been to the bike shop recently asking about a new racer, he can see the disc brakes.
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Old 09-22-21, 01:05 PM
  #94  
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Originally Posted by Leinster View Post
Joe Savon watching the TdF on the Telly canít tell if Tadej Pogacar is winning on tubeless, tubular, clincher or solid tires. But if heís been to the bike shop recently asking about a new racer, he can see the disc brakes.
I'm not familar with him. Is he a widget influencer? Shows how much of a Luddite I am.
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Old 09-22-21, 01:11 PM
  #95  
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Originally Posted by tomato coupe View Post
Everyone that claims that they like disc brakes is a shill for big bike. Simple as that.
I am not legally permitted to tell you how many millions of dollars the bike industry pays me annually to tell people I like discs. If you knew, you would sign up in a hurry.
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Old 09-22-21, 01:15 PM
  #96  
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Originally Posted by Atlas Shrugged View Post
Perhaps I am slow to understand but that would not be a first for me. Pro riders are forced to ride discs even though they don't provide a competitive advantage for the rider and it's a conspiracy by Big Bike. Why are tubulars still popular and a majority on the Pro Tour?
Safety. I tubular stays on the rim after it deflates, which is sort of important if you are diving down a mountain at 100 kph or blasting along in the peloton at 55. A deflated tire coming off the rim could cause some horrific crashes, whereas a tire which goes flat but stays on the rim allows a rider to retain a measure of control.

As far as I know. Maybe they are all being paid millions by Big Cycling.
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Old 09-22-21, 01:43 PM
  #97  
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Originally Posted by tomato coupe View Post
I find this statement ... humorous.
I take it you do not actually ride anywhere with your bike. The first thing one learns with a road bike is to not depend on the front brake or it will send the rider over the handlebars. It is why the rear brake lever is on the right side as that is the stronger and dominant hand for most people. With mountain bikes it is a different situation with trail riding but that is a special case. Track bike have no front brake and no rear brake and this has always been the case. Maybe it is time to expand your limited knowledge.

My first serious bike had tubular tires or "sewups" and these are glued onto the rims. With too much heating of the rim from the rim brakes the glue softens and the tire can be dislodged from the rim. On on long downhill grade I found myself having to make a rapid stop with a car in the wrong lane and I peeled the front tire completely off the rim. More than a little unsettling and I was happy to have not crashed the bike and only did some damage to the rim.

Last edited by Calsun; 09-22-21 at 01:47 PM.
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Old 09-22-21, 01:45 PM
  #98  
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Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post
I am not legally permitted to tell you how many millions of dollars the bike industry pays me annually to tell people I like discs. If you knew, you would sign up in a hurry.
I canít sign up. Iím a dentist with a gold card and, apparently, Iím supposed to provide the money that gets distributed to the shills.
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Old 09-22-21, 01:49 PM
  #99  
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Originally Posted by Calsun View Post
I take it you do not actually ride anywhere with your bike. The first thing one learns with a road bike is to not depend on the front brake or it will send the rider over the handlebars. It is why the rear brake lever is on the right side as that is the stronger and dominant hand for most people.
Except the perfidous British who relish in causing chaos in the peloton near you with their diabolical endo machines, that is!
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Old 09-22-21, 02:01 PM
  #100  
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Originally Posted by Calsun View Post
I take it you do not actually ride anywhere with your bike. The first thing one learns with a road bike is to not depend on the front brake or it will send the rider over the handlebars.
There is nothing magical about front brakes that causes people to go over the handlebars. In terms of how the center-of-mass gets pitched around relative to the bike, whether braking is front or rear makes no difference. The only thing making the front brake "worse" in this regard is that the front gets weighted (and the rear unweighted) during braking, so the front wheel can tolerate vastly higher braking forces before traction is lost, meaning that it can achieve more powerful braking. The front brake on a road bike is capable of vastly shorter stopping distances than the rear brake.

The solution to going over the bars is not to avoid using your most capable brake. The solution is to position yourself and brace your upper body against braking forces so that you do not go over the bars.

It is why the rear brake lever is on the right side as that is the stronger and dominant hand for most people.

The rear brake level is on the right side because of standards momentum, how it's always been done. There are regions where this is swapped (notably the UK) and people are seemingly able to correctly brake just fine.

Track bike have no front brake and no rear brake and this has always been the case.

Yes, and that standard was developed around racing on nontechnical closed courses where everybody is going in the same direction and there's no cornering.

Some people do ride such bikes on the street, but there are real compromises, and I generally recommend against it. The stopping distances of such bikes are far longer than those of road bikes with brakes (especially those with front brakes), and the fixed gearing can limit their ability to lean into corners as well, depending on geometry and crank length.
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