JohnJ80

um, no.

You can still get a FD piecemeal from SRAM - I did not long ago when I broke mine (my fault). That's how they handle any FD's that break.

If you break a shifter, the AXS shifters do work with the latest firmware update with 11 speed eTap (firmware version 2.29.4 or greater installed) and that works with both Force AXS and Red AXS to Red eTap. So, yeah, you can get OEM parts directly. It also looks like they're making sure repair parts are available for a good long while yet.

J.

GhostRider62

If you work for a shop, could you order me 1,000 11 speed etap front derailleurs? I could make a fortune on them.

No, you cannot. They do not exist. And, if you do not have a working 11 speed etap FD, you basically have to upgrade to AXS meaning, new FD, RD, shifters, wheels, crank, chain, cassette.

SRAM ignored customers who had dead in the water 11 speed systems for a very, very long time. I was one of them. So, I know what I am talking about. They suck for service. Customer here with at least 6 SRAM Red groupos.

JohnJ80

and we have a winner for todays asinine response. 😂

ericcox

Thought I'd jump in for fun. I have an Ultegra Di2 bike and just got a gravel bike with SRAM XPLR - Force, so it is 1X. I like both just fine. I'm only about 170 miles in on SRAM, but my early impression is that it is quieter than my Di2 (which surprised me), though Shimano seems to shift a little better under load. Brakes on both are good. I do think Shimano looks a little better, but I also have the Force Quarq power meter which, while functional, is a little ugly. The hood shape on both works for me. SRAM's larger hoods are good for gravel - did a little single track in the midst of a ~75 mile gravel ride today, and appreciated the feel of the hoods.

But... I'd go with what you can get.

Edit to add: I do love the buttons on Shimano that let me scroll through my Garmin. I miss that on my gravel bike.

veganbikes

If it were a dream build I want Campy EPS. I haven't used Campy EPS so I think why the heck not something dreamy. I have Ultegra Di2 and love it so I know that but I so far can only dream about Campy. If it was SRAM it would probably be Red but I am just not a fan of SRAM. I would also love to try Rotor Uno or whatever they are on at the moment, something more exotic.

TiHabanero

veganbikes, you make a really good and valid point. Sram and Shimano really are common as they are the two big gorillas of the parts industry. Campagnolo is small by any comparison, but super sweet and definitely dreamy! Three years ago I did a personal grail build, one that was my first indexed shift system. Not a chance I was using the run of the mill stuff, regardless of how great it was.
I chose Campagnolo 11 speed mixing Chorus derailleurs with Record crank and brifters. When I ride with people everyone is running a Chevy or a Honda, but not me. I am the lone Ferrari in the crowd. Sram and Shimano work well, no doubt about it, but when one can have a drive train that not only works well, but is exotic, then why settle for the same-o same-o run of the mill stuff?
One thing to note: I have never worked with Campagnolo EPS, therefore I don't know how it sets up. I guarantee it does not set up as easy as Sram wireless, but I am certain that if shifts as well if not better than Sram or Shimano, just like their cable shift systems!

Maelochs

Thing is Ferrari isn't exotic. It is owned by Fiat, which is partially owned by Chrysler. Your 488 shares DNA with a loss-leader Plymouth Valiant. Except of course, the Ferrari has the ability to perform as most cars cannot .... which Campagnolo lacks.

Campy is more rare in part because it does the same job, no better and no worse, but costs a lot more. Peole who love Campy know they are almost exclusively buying a name .... the actual gear is not exceptional or arguably even better. If Campy worked much better than Shimano or SRAM ... Camapagnolo would be a lot more popular on high-end builds because people want Performance. If Campy markedly outperformed Shimano/SRAM, Shimano/SRAM engineers would go back to their computers and figure out how to get the same performance.

Derailleurs, brifters ..... pretty much mature tech. After indexing and unifying brake and shift levers, what else is there? Marginal gains. The chain is a chain, the rings and cogs are rings and cogs. The real differences are minor differences in lever shape and placement, and hood shape. if one or another suits you better, great, but that doesn't equal "exotic" in the way Lamborghini or a Koenigsegg does. We all have Camaros, but some have Z28 badges, in effect.

Buying Campy for the cachet is fine ..... but it almost 100 percent personal because no one will know and only the few people willing to spend a lot more money for the same performance will even care. ninety-nine percent of the people who see your bike won't know you have Campagnolo if you don't point it out. People riding SRAM or Shimano or even Microshift are getting exactly as much value in terms of function ..... so certainly, buy Campy if it makes you feel better. I am all for that. But personally, .... I ride to ride. I don't buy bikes to impress others. If having Campy warms your heart or stirs your loins or whatever .... Great investment.

But to me a product which is considered "exotic" only because it is overpriced ..... I can get a bag a Walmart which is every bit as good as a Gucci bag ...... and most people can't tell a knock-off from the real thing .... in fact, most people only see knock-offs because most people are too smart and/or too poor to waste money on a bag which is 99 percent label.

Shoot, I can put "Campagnolo" decals on my Shimano stuff and almost nobody would notice, and far fewer would know that they weren't Campy.

I would still opt for 12-speed Dura-ace, for the reasons mentioned above.

DaveSSS 

In a few more months, DA 12 may actually be available - three years after sram axs 12. Both brands are having distribution problems. I bought two force axs groups last July when prices started dropping. 16 months and not a single problem. A had two Campy chorus 12 groups a year before that. They cost $1100 each. Other than the higher cost, I prefer the sram axs groups over chorus 12.

GhostRider62

The simple fact is SRAM dropped loyal customers within a year of introducing a new product, THAT is assine.

Now, they are backpedaling and trying to restore what they lost.

The reason they have a 11 speed etap RD? They had a manufacturing defect (cold solder) that probably should have been a recall. Instead, they let you buy an AXS body with 11 speed electronic guts inside. Lovely.

They have done nothing WRT etap FD customer need. Lose that and your only path is jumping ship to Shimano or going to AXS.

Instead of just whining and calling me assine, how about you respond with facts.

Hiro11

The odds of getting a 12sp Dura-Ace Di2 build in for less than $10K Canadian are low.

Both Di2 and AXS are great options. Regardless of the wireless levers, Di2 is likely still more of a pain to initially set up. If you are having someone else build the bike, this might be a non-factor. I've read that 12sp Di2 shifts slightly faster and Shimano brakes are a bit better, but I can't vouch for this myself.

Honestly, if you're like me and you don't particularly care about a pound or so of weight I struggle to look past Rival AXS for any road bike build these days. Identical performance at a fraction of the price for a small weight penalty. Rival AXS is a game changer, IMO.

chaadster

The OP asked about DA Di2 11spd vs. Force AXS…all the talk about Campagnolo and eTap 11 is off-topic and trashy.

All the garbage does raise the question of what dream the OP is fulfulling with their $10k “dream build.” I can only guess that the OP limited the consideration to those two gruppos not because of the dream, but rather because of the price. So, the OP is not a question about dreams, but a question about limitations, and how you’d rather distribute spending your $10k on a bike. I mean, I’m not up on pricing, but DA Di2 has got to cost more than Force AXS, no? Looking quickly here, it seems DA is nearly $2k more.

In that light, I’d definitely go with Force AXS because I’d prefer to spend my big money hitting the road on the latest-and-greatest tech, not a once-premier-now-lame-duck groupset. Furthermore, I can then allocate the $2k savings into frame expenditure, wheels, or whatever. If I had to spend $3.8k of $10k on DA, $6.2k is about what I’d spend on an English frameset, leaving me zero dollars for everything else. Would I rather have an English than DA? You betchya.

That’s my dream, anyway.

GhostRider62

Saying cost is no object or concern is weird especially when OP asking to compare Force to Dura Ace is really odd, middle of the road vs top of the line.

If OP wants a dream build, do dura ace, Force looks really cheap and trashy

chaadster

Yeah, like a common, street sex-worker. Man, you got this game figured, boy!

Listen, we can all tell you feel burned and got an axe to grind because you got 11spd right before 12spd AXS came out or whatever, but let it go and move on, man.

GhostRider62

Never had a problem with Dura Ace. Lots of SRAM failures on many groupsets that I own. I'd recommend he buy the Dura Ace, it is much prettier and is a top of the line group, unlike Force which looks rather pedestrian. Sram does not support customers. If you don't want to listen to it, butt the hell out, you post tons of things I don't like but I just skip over it. If OP wants Force, go for it.

PeteHski

Yeah, but the Campag stuff does look great. It might not work any better than Shimano 105 or SRAM Rival, but it does look pretty cool. I'd be tempted on a "dream" build just for the hell of it.

TiHabanero

At the expense of getting into a pissing match, the post about Campagnolo being overpriced middle of the road stuff I must remind him of the C8 Corvette. Comes from the pedestrian Chevrolet line of heritage. Not exotic at all I suppose. Just another Vega in wolfs clothing?

DaveSSS 

I used Campy only for 25 years. Never had a warranty issue. The higher level groups work no better than chorus, but they are lighter. I've owned several Record groups, but eventually settled for chorus level. To get good prices, my groups were all purchased from European sources. The Campy parts resell for better prices, so actual cost of ownership is not high. I much prefer my force axs groups over my chorus 12 mechanical groups. I did use my chorus 48/32 cranks with force axs, for awhile. I don't like SRAM's limited range cranks. I've read of many force cranks with broken plastic covers. Chorus cranks are full carbon.

If I had a bunch of eTap 11 parts, I'd sell them off on ebay. Some people are paying high prices to hang on to 11 speed.

Maelochs

The thing with the Corvette is that it has the performance numbers. Is it "exotic"? Only in America .... but it has the performance metrics. It makes the lateral and longitudinal Gs, it has the accelerations times and braking distances which put it on par with the "exotic" European cars .... of course, and "exotic" Ferrari or Porsche nowadays would be the hybrid LaFerrari of 918 Spyder or whatever .... the $800 K 1000 bhp top-of-the-line cars. A 488 or a 911 ... almost mundane. (For reference (0-60 times only) https://www.motortrend.com/features/...from-0-60-mph/) (and other performance secs---you can look up comparison cars as you like https://fastestlaps.com/models/chevr...te-c8-stingray) and (https://www.topspeed.com/cars/chevro...-ar186406.html) The Corvette matches all the actual "exotics" (Porsche, McLaren, Ferrari .... ) on all the performance metrics. It is not an expensive Vega, it is a slightly cheaper high-performance sports car.

The deal with Campagnolo is that it doesn't do what it does in the slightest way better than the competition. It is very good .... but so are the comparable offerings from Shimano and SRAM. Campy costs more but works the same.

Again, if a person wants it, it is worth it because it is what that person wants.

PeteHski

Campag appeals more on an aesthetic level rather than any technical superiority. It does have the Italian design flair that both Shimano and definitely SRAM lack. You could say the same thing about the Corvette eg. SRAM = Corvette, Campag = Ferrari, Shimano = Honda NSX. Ferraris are clearly over-priced in this company and don't really offer any significant performance advantage. Just aesthetic design and badge appeal. Much like Campag.

TiHabanero

"I guarantee it does not set up as easy as Sram wireless, but I am certain that if shifts as well if not better than Sram or Shimano"

My words above are not espousing the superior shifting quality of Campagnolo, they simply are pointing out that it shifts equal to, or better than the others, meaning it is top notch stuff. Believe me I have worked on lots of Sram wireless and Di2 bikes, and they are both very good at that job. Not getting into the "this works better than that" because they are equal in performance, albeit Sram is by far the easiest to install and set up.

When I ride my bike, I know what I like and what I deem as a dream build. For me it is Campagnolo because it is not common here in the USA, and works very well. One does not consider Campagnolo for the price point and better value. One purchases it because it is a worthy alternative to the two 800-pound gorillas that rule the market, and does it with mostly beautiful design.

With that being said, if you are willing to put up with the BS of Sram hydro brakes, then their wireless is the obvious choice between Sram and Shimano.

chaadster

I’d bet not even 1 in 60 American club cyclists rides Campagnolo. That’s well exotic…and many Campagnolo bits are made in Romania, a country I’d bet not 1 in 10,000 Americans can locate on a map.

TiHabanero

"Romania, a country I’d bet not 1 in 10,000 Americans can locate on a map."

Is it necessary to know where something is produced to make it legit? If you have not traveled there, then you are in no position to use it? Com'on, man! Who cares?

Koyote

I don't know if anyone else has yet pointed out the obvious, but here it is: if cost really isn't a concern, then you don't mention a price limit.

If there is a price limit (apparently there IS), then the groupset choice involves tradeoffs -- maybe cheaper wheels, a cheaper frameset, whatever. So, it's difficult to give a recommendation without knowing the other priorities and constraints.

Sy Reene

True, but I think $10k can afford a complete bike of some sort with pretty much any groupset mentioned so far.

chaadster

No, no…my point was that Campagnolo is exotic in a variety of ways, not only for the fact of being expensive. It is unusual in the American market. When we talk about “exotic cars,” it’s well understood we’re talking about rare, expensive, top-performing cars, but when we talk about things like “exotic foods” or “exotic flowers,” the understanding is that they come from unfamiliar, far-away places. So, in pointing out that Campagnolo parts are not only pricey but both scarce and made in Romania was to support the notion that Campagnolo is definitely exotic in the US market. Add in the cachet of it being an iconic Italian company and it seems awfully silly to quarrel over the aptness of exotic as an adjective for Campagnolo.

Relatedly, I think Campagnolo make the best-looking gruppos, which is why I have three bikes on Campagnolo 11spd. I did choose SRAM Force AXS for my latest bike because because I wanted the tech and 12spd, however, had I been building a more mountain road oriented gravel bike, I’d have gone Campagnolo Ekar 13spd. I very nearly did, but the gearing spread pushed me to Force AXS. Ekar looks so hot…